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      10-13-2014, 06:29 AM   #1
DR-JEKL
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Caltex Eflex v's United E85

So I have a host of Q's re running ethanol, and the 1er forum seems to get more performance related posts/threads so I thought I would post up here!

I've been meaning to get a PTF E40 map for a while now, and have decided to get the fuelit stg 2 upgrade to ensure my lpfp pressures are all ok and a new hpfp to ensure the fuel system is working at it's optimum.

So there is a caltex servo within a 10 minute drive from where i reside which stocks eflex, whereas my closest united e85 stockist is more like 30 mins away..

From what I believe the caltex is E70, so basically I'm assuming it would just require a slightly higher 'dose' then the united product? Is there any quantifiable differences once the caltex eflex or united e85 is diluted to one's desired ratio of E40 etc?

Also my car is a weekender, and sadly I hardly drive it all that often I'm concerned about the ethanol absorbing moisture and potentially causing problems with the contaminated fuel? I believe you can purchase fuel stabilsers to counteract this, or is this just all negative hoopla created over the years?

It would be great to get some feedback from you ethanol users out there
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      10-13-2014, 04:11 PM   #2
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Eflex is 70% Ethanol, United is 85% Ethanol.

United are in the process of rolling out their new E85 product. It is blended with 98 Octane Unleaded.

I blend the United down to 70% so that if I can only get eflex, than I can just put it in without having to reset adaptations etc. 70% also gives me a little more reasonable economy. 9.5l/100km on the highway. Although when I say highway driving, I tend to overtake and may go slightly faster than what most people consider highway driving.
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      10-13-2014, 08:01 PM   #3
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i thought eflex was different mixtures depending on time of year, similar to what they do in the states? E70 for winter to help with cold starts, then higher ethanol in the warm months.

I'd do some logs with your current LPFP and HPFP before purchasing anything else. The standard stuff is usually good for atleast E60. I have a 2008 135i, and my original LPFP copes with E50 fine without issues, although i have the fuel-it inline pump sitting here ready to go in aswell, which i might do over xmas. HPFP has no problems at all.

i personally run an E48-E50 mix all day everyday. 29L of united E85, mixed with 20L BP ultimate (yes i run my tank very low to ensure i get my mixes right).
I Run a Jb4 with my own version of the BMS race flash with some timing changes.

As for the absorbing moisture, i wouldnt stress. Even if it does happen, it doesnt happen for a long time. Trust me, once you get your E mix right, you will find yourself wanting to drive it alot more
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      10-13-2014, 08:52 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ba114 View Post
i thought eflex was different mixtures depending on time of year, similar to what they do in the states? E70 for winter to help with cold starts, then higher ethanol in the warm months.

I'd do some logs with your current LPFP and HPFP before purchasing anything else. The standard stuff is usually good for atleast E60. I have a 2008 135i, and my original LPFP copes with E50 fine without issues, although i have the fuel-it inline pump sitting here ready to go in aswell, which i might do over xmas. HPFP has no problems at all.

i personally run an E48-E50 mix all day everyday. 29L of united E85, mixed with 20L BP ultimate (yes i run my tank very low to ensure i get my mixes right).
I Run a Jb4 with my own version of the BMS race flash with some timing changes.

As for the absorbing moisture, i wouldnt stress. Even if it does happen, it doesnt happen for a long time. Trust me, once you get your E mix right, you will find yourself wanting to drive it alot more
before you jumped to E48/50, did you try united P100 (10% ethanol with 98 unleaded), and go to E(20) - E(30) first to test out the LPFP etc? And on these did you stick with the pump flash only going to race flash when you hit E50?

If you don't have enough ethanol available for whatever reason and you need to fill up with just 98, do you run the race flash still and just go jb4 map 1 with ignore DME boost targets set, or map 0 and fall back on the flash load curve?

i'm running your pump flash by the way from the unnamed web forum- still no issues thanks. i might do a timing curve comparison in tuner pro and check how how safe the timing would be with low boost on the race flash.
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      10-14-2014, 12:18 AM   #5
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before you jumped to E48/50, did you try united P100 (10% ethanol with 98 unleaded), and go to E(20) - E(30) first to test out the LPFP etc? And on these did you stick with the pump flash only going to race flash when you hit E50?

If you don't have enough ethanol available for whatever reason and you need to fill up with just 98, do you run the race flash still and just go jb4 map 1 with ignore DME boost targets set, or map 0 and fall back on the flash load curve?

i'm running your pump flash by the way from the unnamed web forum- still no issues thanks. i might do a timing curve comparison in tuner pro and check how how safe the timing would be with low boost on the race flash.
I actually used to mix the e85 with united P100. Never tried the P100 alone.
I think the lowest i've run is probably E30. I used to get some issues before i did the backend flash, but after flashing the PUMP flash, they went away. At this stage i was using the pump flash. Which will be fine for running some E content. Couple of intermittent issues with exhaust vanos come and go occasionally at low revs but high load, but it seems to be ok these days.

When i go interstate, i typically run 98 only for mileage reasons. Never an issue with this on the race flash. i just set to map 5 and off i go. It's worth doing some logs to make sure you're fine doing this too, but i dont anticipate there'd be problems. The race flash is still fairly conservative as far as timing and fueling goes, i really would not be concerned with running it daily with only 98. But the difference in power from going to e50 cannot be explained. Feels like a totally different car.

I'm currently running a modified version of wedge's e30 flash with higher timing targets (13.5 degrees). running map 3, 50 adder. It's been too wet to do too thorough logging, however lpfp, hpfp, trims and afrs all look good so far. Avg ignition of about 0.3-0.5. Once it dries up here i'll do some better logs but nothing jumps out at me to be concerned about from the current logs.
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      10-14-2014, 12:39 AM   #6
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much of difference go to RACE flash from PUMP flash when at E30?
or for that matter E50?

What JB map did you run on E30 and E50?
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      10-14-2014, 12:59 AM   #7
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Not sure about eflex as we only have United E85 over here.
I'm tuned flash only and have two maps from PTF. One for 98 and one for e50, only takes a minute to switch between them with the Cobb.

I use this app to easily calculate how much of each fuel type I need to get to e50.
ios: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/e85-...877131777?mt=8
Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ssel.e85&hl=en

I recently moved and now walk to work so my car is a weekender as well. I'm not really concerned about moisture absorption.
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      10-14-2014, 01:09 AM   #8
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with e50 i run map3 with a 50 adder everyday. sometimes, i'll bump it to 60-65 for a bit of fun. Car was wheel spinning in 5th gear today in the rain, that hasnt ever happened before...

i'm yet to get back to the dyno, but i managed 258kw (dyno dynamics) with the jb4 (no backend flash) on map 5 running approx e35-e40 back in August. The AFRs were all over the place in those logs too. With my current flash i expect more than that (seat of the pants dyno), although i have since also installed catless DPs.

I'll have to go back through my logs from when i was running the pump flash. The advantage of the race flash over the pump is that the E lets you run higher timing targets and leaner AFR. Noting that if your E content isnt sufficient, the tune pulls timing regardless so its not an issue.
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      10-14-2014, 01:48 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rac View Post
before you jumped to E48/50, did you try united P100 (10% ethanol with 98 unleaded), and go to E(20) - E(30) first to test out the LPFP etc? And on these did you stick with the pump flash only going to race flash when you hit E50?

If you don't have enough ethanol available for whatever reason and you need to fill up with just 98, do you run the race flash still and just go jb4 map 1 with ignore DME boost targets set, or map 0 and fall back on the flash load curve?

i'm running your pump flash by the way from the unnamed web forum- still no issues thanks. i might do a timing curve comparison in tuner pro and check how how safe the timing would be with low boost on the race flash.
P100 is 1% Ethanol at my local United. Hence the advertised 'up to 10%'. I have a flex fuel sensor.
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      10-14-2014, 06:37 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ba114 View Post
i thought eflex was different mixtures depending on time of year, similar to what they do in the states? E70 for winter to help with cold starts, then higher ethanol in the warm months.

I'd do some logs with your current LPFP and HPFP before purchasing anything else. The standard stuff is usually good for atleast E60. I have a 2008 135i, and my original LPFP copes with E50 fine without issues, although i have the fuel-it inline pump sitting here ready to go in aswell, which i might do over xmas. HPFP has no problems at all.

i personally run an E48-E50 mix all day everyday. 29L of united E85, mixed with 20L BP ultimate (yes i run my tank very low to ensure i get my mixes right).
I Run a Jb4 with my own version of the BMS race flash with some timing changes.

As for the absorbing moisture, i wouldnt stress. Even if it does happen, it doesnt happen for a long time. Trust me, once you get your E mix right, you will find yourself wanting to drive it alot more
Yes it seems like you're correct:

Bio E-Flex is specially formulated to meet your flex fuel car's requirements all year round. Because each season can change the way fuel performs in your engine, Caltex will adjust the blend of ethanol from 70 to 85% between seasons, to make sure your engine performs properly

So potentially this can make tuning/mixing a tad risky without an eflex sensor, hence why the united product is more popular? I guess 30-45 mins once a month is worth it for 30+RWKW

Well PTF reccomended anything over E40, it's advisable to get a fuel system upgrade, as whilst initially there may be no problems there have been scenarios of the oem lpfp crapping out prematurely. I've already purchased a fuelit stage 2 drop in setup (had read also that the diy inline pump had come loose on a few guys - but once again this was 12 months or so ago when i was initially going to add my ethanol tune) and I'm hoping this will be a set and forget type install that will provide plenty of headroom in future if/when I go for an upgraded turbo/s & clutch setup.

So when you're mixing it, you buy 29L of E85 in jerry cans then go to bp fill the tank with e85 then add the 98? Or do you add 29L of E85 to the tank, drive easily to the BP (off boost no WOT) and fill up with 98?
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      10-14-2014, 06:53 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabnine View Post
Eflex is 70% Ethanol, United is 85% Ethanol.

United are in the process of rolling out their new E85 product. It is blended with 98 Octane Unleaded.

I blend the United down to 70% so that if I can only get eflex, than I can just put it in without having to reset adaptations etc. 70% also gives me a little more reasonable economy. 9.5l/100km on the highway. Although when I say highway driving, I tend to overtake and may go slightly faster than what most people consider highway driving.
I always thought the E85 was a mix with premium fuel, and the 100+ was a ULP type base?

Ahh that's something I had wondered re the fuel economy in cruising mode. An E70 mix with 9.5L/100km sounds great to me! Obviously on a mountain rd run it could potentially double up to 16-18L/ 100 kms right?
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      10-14-2014, 06:55 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nugget View Post
Not sure about eflex as we only have United E85 over here.
I'm tuned flash only and have two maps from PTF. One for 98 and one for e50, only takes a minute to switch between them with the Cobb.

I use this app to easily calculate how much of each fuel type I need to get to e50.
ios: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/e85-...877131777?mt=8
Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ssel.e85&hl=en

I recently moved and now walk to work so my car is a weekender as well. I'm not really concerned about moisture absorption.
Ahh cool, thanks for the feedback nugget
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      10-14-2014, 06:57 AM   #13
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P100 is 1% Ethanol at my local United. Hence the advertised 'up to 10%'. I have a flex fuel sensor.
I just noticed you're MT also, how's your oem clutch holding up or do you have an upgraded clutch installed?
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      10-14-2014, 07:15 AM   #14
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P100 is 1% Ethanol at my local United. Hence the advertised 'up to 10%'.
that sucks, their website doesnt read like that... i guess so long as they reach their 100 RON that's ok, or do they also say "up to 100 RON" lol. cheeky b8ggers.

there was a push to regulate anything sold as "E85", you can find more info here:

http://www.environment.gov.au/topics...ds/ethanol-e85

all sorts of good stuff, including which winter months certain states would be selling 70% and which summer months its supposed to be 85%. race fuel suppliers, north queensland, NT & north WA would be allowed to sell 85% all year round etc. although i cant be bothered reading all this to work out how much of its now actually regulated now. kid's got croup and have been up since the wee hrs of last night... but if anyone's interested there's a bit to read there.
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      10-14-2014, 07:59 AM   #15
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I just noticed you're MT also, how's your oem clutch holding up or do you have an upgraded clutch installed?
The OEM clutch and flywheel and I parted ways about a month ago.

Got a local product. NPC in Brisbane do them. Their service is excellent.

I am still coming to terms with the little bit of noise it makes. I find if I have the radio on at a reasonable volume it isn't noticeable. Holds the power nicely. The pedal is actually lighter. Its really nice to drive. Recent dyno had me at 294kw.

Last edited by Kabnine; 10-14-2014 at 08:08 AM.
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      10-14-2014, 07:30 PM   #16
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Yes it seems like you're correct:

Bio E-Flex is specially formulated to meet your flex fuel car's requirements all year round. Because each season can change the way fuel performs in your engine, Caltex will adjust the blend of ethanol from 70 to 85% between seasons, to make sure your engine performs properly

So potentially this can make tuning/mixing a tad risky without an eflex sensor, hence why the united product is more popular? I guess 30-45 mins once a month is worth it for 30+RWKW

Well PTF reccomended anything over E40, it's advisable to get a fuel system upgrade, as whilst initially there may be no problems there have been scenarios of the oem lpfp crapping out prematurely. I've already purchased a fuelit stage 2 drop in setup (had read also that the diy inline pump had come loose on a few guys - but once again this was 12 months or so ago when i was initially going to add my ethanol tune) and I'm hoping this will be a set and forget type install that will provide plenty of headroom in future if/when I go for an upgraded turbo/s & clutch setup.

So when you're mixing it, you buy 29L of E85 in jerry cans then go to bp fill the tank with e85 then add the 98? Or do you add 29L of E85 to the tank, drive easily to the BP (off boost no WOT) and fill up with 98?

When i mix, its 29L of E85, and the BP is literally 100m down the road. I always fill e85 first, then the BP ultimate purely because i "feel" like it will mix better this way, also because then i know i'm always getting the same amount of e85 into the tank. I dont mind if i dont get the exact amount of 98 in after, its usually only a couple of litres at most that differs and its never an issue.

The Stage 2 drop in setup is the best option, if i could do it again, thats what i'd do, but instead i cheaped out and went the inline as i also didnt want to have to send my stock bucket back to the states.

keep an eye on n54tech. Someone has gone to the effort of plumbing in a flex fuel sensor for the n54. fuel-it are looking to adapt it into a kit as well which will make it much easier for us to know exactly what E mix we are running at any given time. There may even be JB4 integration too which will be useful, however you really need to adapt the backed flash to cater to the E content. The jb4 may be able to adjust FOL values on the fly to help slightly though.
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      10-14-2014, 08:48 PM   #17
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The Stage 2 drop in setup is the best option, if i could do it again, thats what i'd do, but instead i cheaped out and went the inline as i also didnt want to have to send my stock bucket back to the states.

keep an eye on n54tech. Someone has gone to the effort of plumbing in a flex fuel sensor for the n54. fuel-it are looking to adapt it into a kit as well which will make it much easier for us to know exactly what E mix we are running at any given time. There may even be JB4 integration too which will be useful, however you really need to adapt the backed flash to cater to the E content. The jb4 may be able to adjust FOL values on the fly to help slightly though.
I did a walbro 460 inline setup, but yeh, if Fuel-it had of been around when I purchased the parts I would have went the inbucket approach.

I run the Procede Flex Fuel setup. Vishnu use a base flash, then the procede has two tables and depending on the E content depends on if it is using map 1 (0-7%) or Map 3 (70% and above) and extrapolates somewhere between the two for 8-69%.

At the end of the day from what I can understand the flash and procede just get the fuel in the ball park and the dme takes care of the fine tuning, and the procede maps are more about timing, boost, and IAT adjustments (or lack of it as the % of E increases). Don't quote me on this though.
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      10-14-2014, 08:53 PM   #18
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When i mix, its 29L of E85, and the BP is literally 100m down the road. I always fill e85 first, then the BP ultimate purely because i "feel" like it will mix better this way, also because then i know i'm always getting the same amount of e85 into the tank. I dont mind if i dont get the exact amount of 98 in after, its usually only a couple of litres at most that differs and its never an issue.

The Stage 2 drop in setup is the best option, if i could do it again, thats what i'd do, but instead i cheaped out and went the inline as i also didnt want to have to send my stock bucket back to the states.

keep an eye on n54tech. Someone has gone to the effort of plumbing in a flex fuel sensor for the n54. fuel-it are looking to adapt it into a kit as well which will make it much easier for us to know exactly what E mix we are running at any given time. There may even be JB4 integration too which will be useful, however you really need to adapt the backed flash to cater to the E content. The jb4 may be able to adjust FOL values on the fly to help slightly though.
Just out of curiosity why not buy united 98 rather than BP???

Hmm that certainly sounds like a good setup with the built in flex sensor, that could come in handy for say an interstate trip etc and you dont have to worry about changing maps etc
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      10-14-2014, 11:13 PM   #19
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Just out of curiosity why not buy united 98 rather than BP???

Hmm that certainly sounds like a good setup with the built in flex sensor, that could come in handy for say an interstate trip etc and you dont have to worry about changing maps etc
no real reason why i dont use the united 98. old habits of basically always using BP ultimate before i started mixing e85. Probably also because it looks weird changing bowsers at the same servo and having to pay twice :P
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      10-14-2014, 11:17 PM   #20
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no real reason why i dont use the united 98. old habits of basically always using BP ultimate before i started mixing e85. Probably also because it looks weird changing bowsers at the same servo and having to pay twice :P
My United is used to me. When I walk in they actually say 'bowser numbers blah and blah' All goes on the same tax invoice so my GF doesn't complain about having to enter two receipts
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      10-14-2014, 11:24 PM   #21
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      10-14-2014, 11:36 PM   #22
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So can you start filling with E85, then top off with 98 without having to pay for the E85 1st?

I'm pretty sure for convenience sakes I will fill with united 98 (there's a BP about 10 mins away though where potentially I could fill up)
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