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      04-09-2012, 09:08 AM   #45
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I'm thinking that with the titanium shims and newish pads, maybe his pads and rotors didn't get hot enough to affect the calipers.
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      04-09-2012, 09:14 AM   #46
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Gary if there was a notable difference in rotor temp then the calipers will also get hot and there should be a difference there if the scoops are working.
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      04-09-2012, 12:31 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Focusedintntions View Post
I think the most disturbing thing about your findings Alex was the fact that while the rotor and hub were cooler...the caliper was still the same temp. That's to me the biggest issue. Keeping that cool so the fluid doesn't boil in there and pads don't fall apart.
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I'm thinking that with the titanium shims and newish pads, maybe his pads and rotors didn't get hot enough to affect the calipers.
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Originally Posted by Focusedintntions View Post
Gary if there was a notable difference in rotor temp then the calipers will also get hot and there should be a difference there if the scoops are working.
Good Thought..

although the calipers were the same.. they were 210 /215 if i recall correctly.. this was taken simply on the outside facing surface of the caliper.

It very well may be true that the shims and new pads help insulate.. But thats a good thing also isnt it ??

"the stock plate side had a temp of 290 ish, the side with the F30 plate had a temps of 250 ish " .

( This was from prior post )

so if the caliper is at 215 welll then something good is happening ... remember this was at an impromt temp test after a longish ride to pull over.. the effectiveness of the plates could have passed at that speed / time and the calipers just cooled to the lowest temp they were gonna get too for the situiation ????
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      04-09-2012, 01:09 PM   #48
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Alex,
the popular argument is that the calipers should also be able to dissipate heat as effectively as the rotors and the pads. regardless, this doesn't mean one should not try to reduce temps wherever, whenever possible. you have a good setup for 90% of people here
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      04-09-2012, 01:12 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
I'm thinking that with the titanium shims and newish pads, maybe his pads and rotors didn't get hot enough to affect the calipers.
Gary, when I was measuring my temps at the track I remember the calipers were at an average 200 deg cooler than the rotors.
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      04-09-2012, 01:12 PM   #50
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Kori, josh is correct.. there is plenty of room to bend out a little more then where it naturally sits.. I did check though lock-to-lock when bent out and may rub the control arm / thrust arm, but that was at full extension full lock.. so i say there may be more room..

ill take a measurment or pic and post it up later


EDIT !! i just went out and measured..the plate starts narrow at the bottom and gets wider as it gets to the top..its at least an inch at the bottom and shy of 2 inches at the top.. i have pics but cant download from here.. ill do it tomorrow.
Kori.. here are the pics as promised


Here is a pick with the wheel turned all the way out to the left.. i just stuck my iphone in the wheel well and went as low and as far as possible with the flash.. this shows the open entry that airflow will have once collected by the scoop in the plate. note the direct shot into the center of the rotor / hub area.
Name:  BACKING PLATE 043.jpg
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same angle of attack but i stuck a 6 inch scale in there for reference. thats about an inch at the bottom
Name:  BACKING PLATE 051.jpg
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a little better shot
Name:  BACKING PLATE 053.jpg
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i think i stated before, that the plate can be bent out a little farther.. this is with the plate in its natural position. the limit is the bottom halfo of the scoop as it may rub the control arm
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      04-09-2012, 01:20 PM   #51
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Alex, thanks for the pics. does it taper toward the bottom? if so then you're not getting as much air. same reason your prototype didn't yield a big difference in temps. still a good option though!
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      04-09-2012, 01:29 PM   #52
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Alex what i was referring to is that if on one side you had the scooped backing plate and on the other you didnt, then you should be seeing a temp diff in both calipers also. If one rotor is cooler than the other but both calipers are the same temp...then there's still an issue.
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      04-09-2012, 01:40 PM   #53
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Chris, logic says there should be a same rate of difference for the calipers but there maybe other factors involved i.e., different rates of heat dissipation between the materials. although I hear what you're saying
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      04-09-2012, 02:28 PM   #54
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Quote:
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Chris, logic says there should be a same rate of difference for the calipers but there maybe other factors involved i.e., different rates of heat dissipation between the materials. although I hear what you're saying
+1.. I just think i drove to far with brake parts cooling normally and they reached a minimum temp and heat soak.. Material also may have played into it like Kori mentioned. aluminum caliper -vs- cast iron rotor
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      04-15-2012, 09:42 PM   #55
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Well.. I dont know if i should be happy or sad...

First of all i never received my right side plate prior to my Track day Yesterday at Lime Rock Park..

Sooooo Being that i wasnt going to risk my right side brakes, i bent that plate over as i had done most of all of last season. ( and sufferd no issues other than a pulsation using cool carbons )

To reiterate.. I am running BMW BBK ( same as 135 Brakes ) Ferodo 2500's up front / Cool Carbons in the back ( there is no Ferodo available for a 128 rear caliper ) Ti Backing plates and OEM Shims on the Ferodo Pads..RBF 600 fluid.

I HIGHLY recommend anybody using pads that dont have shims to pry the ones off the stock pads and use them on your aftermarket pads.. The reason being is that vibration / constant slap froward and backward cant be good ( my personal opinion ) for the pad, the pistons etc. I also put a small amount of high temp copper brake lube on the piston tops after brake pad removal / inspection / replacement..

now on to the temps.. Lime Rock is not Hard on Brakes..Turn one off the straight into the double apex hairpin is the highest application. the left hander is the other but not nearly as much, then there is braking for the down hill.. this is a jab for a long moment from speeds of approx 90 to 100 ( in my car, YMMV in a 135 ) to set the car for the down hill for corner speeds in the high 70's / low 80's but if you dont slow enough, you in the Armco / tires ... so you trackguys know what i mean..

I had 4 sessions.. 2 times i got the checker at start finish.. this made my cool down lap 1.5 miles .... the other 2 times i got the checker at turn 6 or 7 ( i forget) this is usually the station that black flags you so that you go into the pits because of a No-No.. The 2 times i got the late checker, it only left 1 turn and pit road and paddock distance to get to my spot in the paddok.. after driving that short distance I recorded the following :

F30 plated rotor temps of ONLY 250 - 260 Caliper temps of 210

Bent backing plate side of of 290 - 310 Caliper temps of 210

Although, it appears as though the F30 backing plate did SOMETHING which is always good... and i still feel they are an improvement over stock plates. we may be missing something because those temps should be able to be handled by a nissan altima.

I say that the f30 / bent backing plates allow for sufficinet air flow to the brakes under normal track conditions given enough cool down and proper brake pad installation ( i.e oem shims / high temp lube ) I agree as Kori can attest that i have seen rotor temps in the 500's but in theses cases there wasnt any real cool down.

I ran a personal best of 1:06.9, (1.5 seconds less than last year) ( thank you Ferodo and Ground control camber plates ...the only mods different then last year )( and i took 1st place in my class ST-3) end of straight speed of 115-120..( 135's in the past have gotten to 135 ish so there is a difference there) The FTD was 59 seconds.. in a HIGHLY modified corvette !!!! ( i know 7 seconds is a eternity but i put that in there for reference being that the vet may have had about 200 horsepower on me )

I inspected my brakes today and they are 100%. I did note that the holes in my vented rotors on the bent backing plate side were clogged more than the F30 backing plate side. ( i took a drill and cleaned all the holes ) ill say that the added air helped keep them less obstructed

I will add that the FERODOS give off a nasty reddish dust as opposed to stock / cool carbon black brake dust.. when i first saw this i though that the amazing braking that i got from the FERODOS was eating the rotors.. but the rotors are no less for wear considering what i put them thru ( 4 sessions..45 laps)

for you 135 guys running larger wheels i think that the shouding the wheels provide are leading to you excessive heat issues .. also i think that the Ti shims + the OEM shims will helpi also, of course in addition to the f30 backing plates.

i may add that i think that the agressive nature of track only pads (hawk etc etc ) dont lend themselves to our set up. maybe you guys are over compensating with your set ups. even if i give you 2 second for horsepower and you see times of 1:05 ish..... how much of that is brake related ????

Overall.. i am very happy with the performance of the f30 backing plate modification...and i approve there installation.

p.s. The Ferodo 2500 are the BEST street / Track pad i have used so far ABSOLUTLY no fade / vibration / loss of effectiveness. i purposely punished them by braking late and hard in my second session ( so much so that turn 1 got really scary a few times as i tried to brake later and later each lap to the point at which i almost had to use the "escape road" ....

I dont know what else to say ???

Thoughts ???? questions?????

on a side note there had to be somthing so so so different to cook those RB rotors and calipers...

Next event June 17th Lime Rock again... all invited !!!

Regards,

Alex
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Last edited by DriveHard; 04-16-2012 at 01:21 PM.
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      04-16-2012, 12:47 PM   #56
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That sounds like it is at least doing something, no?
Also given that your car made it through the entire weekend no problem is a good thing...

In March I did a track even here on the West Coast and had to limp home after 1 1/2 track sessions since my car went into limp mode. Apparently it thought the brakes were overheating.

I'm running DS 2500 pads and RBF 600 fluid like you. No TI shims though. And even with the stock shims the pads clunk around a bit when I switch from reverse for forward and back.

The F30 plates are on order and I hope that will allow me to make it through a full track weekend.

Do you really think the TI shims do *anything*?
Feedback around the 'net seems to be very mixed trending towards snake oil, no?
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      04-16-2012, 01:00 PM   #57
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Quote:
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That sounds like it is at least doing something, no?
Also given that your car made it through the entire weekend no problem is a good thing...

In March I did a track even here on the West Coast and had to limp home after 1 1/2 track sessions since my car went into limp mode. Apparently it thought the brakes were overheating.

I'm running DS 2500 pads and RBF 600 fluid like you. No TI shims though. And even with the stock shims the pads clunk around a bit when I switch from reverse for forward and back.

The F30 plates are on order and I hope that will allow me to make it through a full track weekend.

Do you really think the TI shims do *anything*?
Feedback around the 'net seems to be very mixed trending towards snake oil, no?

Yes i believe everything as a package works well... It is a definite improvement over stock for sure.
Brake status will not affect your Limp home mode issues.. That was probably caused by oil temp issues... but that is a whole other story.

I doubt that the stock brake shims are on your pads if they clunk.. ( but i could be wrong, but they were a bear to get into the caliper with the stock plate and the oem plate so i think you would know ) Did you install them or did a shop ????

My car has made it thru 7 or 8 full day events and 2, two day events at approx 45 to 50 laps a day....I think the Ti plates help alot.. If anything they help with the vibration and sliding of aftermarket pads in our calipers.
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      04-16-2012, 01:15 PM   #58
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Yes i believe everything as a package works well... It is a definite improvement over stock for sure.
Brake status will not affect your Limp home mode issues.. That was probably caused by oil temp issues... but that is a whole other story.
No. The car went into limp mode because of the brakes over-heating. I didn't even know our cars have a way to monitor this (sensor in the brake fluid maybe?), but the dealer confirmed multiple times that that's what they saw in the computer.

Quote:
I doubt that the stock brake shims are on your pads if they clunk.. ( but i could be wrong, but they were a bear to get into the caliper with the stock plate and the oem plate so i think you would know ) Did you install them or did a shop ????
I installed them.

Now we have to clarify what shims you mean?
The stock pads had a thin shim clamped to the back that came off fairly easily and straight. Then the pads had another backing plate glued on the back that I could not remove without bending the crap out of.
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      04-16-2012, 04:46 PM   #59
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No. The car went into limp mode because of the brakes over-heating. I didn't even know our cars have a way to monitor this (sensor in the brake fluid maybe?), but the dealer confirmed multiple times that that's what they saw in the computer.



I installed them.

Now we have to clarify what shims you mean?
The stock pads had a thin shim clamped to the back that came off fairly easily and straight. Then the pads had another backing plate glued on the back that I could not remove without bending the crap out of.
Never heard of it in 15 years... But i think you may have had a DSC failure and the car would not accelerate.. that makes more sense to me.. there is no brake fluid / system temp sensor anywhere in the car.. the only thing that has sensors other then ABS is the DSC control unit ... hence my though of a DSC failure limiting throttle..

as far as the shims go, i am in fact talking about the shims that come off rather easily .. the key to them are the edges that wrap around the sides to make the pad snug in the caliper. the ones glued on are there forever.. dont even try to get those off as its a mess..LOL

Hope that clears that up..
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      04-16-2012, 04:59 PM   #60
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Quote:
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as far as the shims go, i am in fact talking about the shims that come off rather easily .. the key to them are the edges that wrap around the sides to make the pad snug in the caliper. the ones glued on are there forever.. dont even try to get those off as its a mess..LOL
I did try!

Anyway, I have the shims on then and it's still very "clunky". When I put the F30 backing plates on I'll probably put some brake grease on or so. I'll also look into the TI plates again.
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      04-16-2012, 06:26 PM   #61
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Quote:
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Never heard of it in 15 years.
There are a few posts about it. I don't remember exactly, but it's something like the ECU sees big differences in wheel speeds and decides your brakes must be failing. Afaik it only happens on track. Somebody said his dealer told him it only happens to cars with tunes. I don't know.
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      04-17-2012, 10:38 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryS
Quote:
Originally Posted by DriveHard View Post
Never heard of it in 15 years.
There are a few posts about it. I don't remember exactly, but it's something like the ECU sees big differences in wheel speeds and decides your brakes must be failing. Afaik it only happens on track. Somebody said his dealer told him it only happens to cars with tunes. I don't know.
It's a calculation of brake temps based on a number of different variables. Such a road speed, brake on time, brake pressure etc. It first came out on the E53 X5 as a preventative measure due to brake application due to all wheel drive system intervention. It s feature that has progressed in its function, but at the track it can be a nuisance if you really push hard.
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      06-21-2012, 12:47 PM   #63
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An update after my last event as promissed.

I was finally able to install the right side f30plate that was on back-order.

Second trip to limerock this season.. best personal time 1:06.1, .8 sec faster than the first event this season.. ( i got used to the new camber plates, and tweeked my braking a bit to induce ABS ( just barely at the braking zones) ..

I have determined that 135 guys are having more issues then me in my 128 due to their higher straighaway speeds. i.e at LRP i get to 115-120, they get to 130ish..

135's dont have the factory brake ducts through the OEM bumper and into the wheel well ( due to the coolers) as my car does with the M-sport front bumper.. These ducts at least feed fresh incoming air into the wheel wells where the f30 plates, due to there design, capture this air and direct this air over the rotor / hub / caliper.

My BMW BBK rotors are 10k miles old, The Ferodo's have 2 events on them and they are my street pads.. The Brakes on my car with theses upgrades (listed in thread and in sig) worked perfectly. No fade, No vibration, No smoke or fire. Calipers are not discolored due to heat, after many inspections, the pistons and the seals are perfect showing no signs of heat failure.

For a 128 with M-sport and you consider yourself a Intermediate Track driver, then this is your recipe for success.

BMW BBK w/ slotted and crossdrilled BMW rotors
Ferodo 2500 front pads
Titanium shims ( thin ones )
Stock backing plates off of OEM pads to stop the noise and rocking of pads
RBF 600 fluid ( or better)
BMW f30 front backing plates (minor mod, see this thread for details)
High Perf. Street tires / or r-comps ( no runflats)

If you have a 135, do all of the above that isint already done, and if you are able to control your entry speed off the straights you might be ok... If you get any faster, or are not able to take care of your brakes ( not abuse them) Then you will have to do some upgrading as per other threads, as my updates seem to have a limit that other guys in 135's are surpassing.


for any guys tracking a 128..... this is the way to go..

p.s. only draw back to Ferodos is nasty red brake dust after an event...and somewhat even street driving. they do squeak a little here and there but i find if i clean out the holes and the slots of the front rotrs, it does it less often.

Let me know if there are any thoughts or questions..

Regards, Alex
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      06-21-2012, 01:14 PM   #64
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Alex i haven't finished reading your post but 135's do have the ducts coming through the bumper into the wheel wells even though we have the cooler htere...it routes around it.
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      06-21-2012, 01:22 PM   #65
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Also I wonder if the 128 and 135 share the same master cylinder? I think you don't experience the heat issues we do b/c as you said you're going slower, and your car is lighter (no oil cooler, lines, turbo, non moving headlamps..etc). If you're running Rcomps i'd recommend trying full race pads such as the hawks man, I bet you could take off another second a lap easy.
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      06-21-2012, 02:13 PM   #66
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great report Alex! I really like the Ferodo's too except for the dust. not as bad as the factory pads though. by now we all know = cool carbon for DD + autox + intermediate pdx, Ferodo's for DD + autox + int/adv pdx. many options for race pads out there, Hawk, PFC, Pagid, carbotech or Ferodo's
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