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      03-28-2012, 07:04 AM   #45
bklounge
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You folks are hating on helix defending their own original product after clearly being copied?.. WTF. How is $700 shipped compared to $899 + shipping (~$300 diff) even a valid argument for justifying a blatant copy compared to an engineered product? We're talking about a part for a $50k car here.

Chalk another one up for China.
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      03-28-2012, 10:26 AM   #46
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I figured I chime in here as I am in the market as well for a FMIC. So far the two I was considering were ETS or Hilux. Though now after reading this I might throw Wagner in the mix. Please post how things are as time goes on.

My biggest question to Wagner or even Hilux is which FMIC offers little to now lag as compared to stock??

I am not sure on ETS and "square" end takes as to me they just do not have streamlined airflow.

I will sacrifice some cooling for no low end lag.

Side note to Hilux. I get where you are coming from for sure and wish you luck in your fight. Just remember the forums are a mix bags of ego and attitudes because they can type on a screen with some sort of anonymity.

A far out idea for you would be get your biggest competition (ETS / Wagner) and do a 3 part test. Dyno (hood closed), Drive test on a track (lap-times) and technical break down of each (take them apart and show engineering / R&D). Video it all and post it as a series to here and other N54/N55 forums. Will it cost you money YES, but might fix any issues with the aforementioned issue with the forums. Just 2 cent thought.
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      03-28-2012, 02:36 PM   #47
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+1 for m3dragon! My thoughts exactly!
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      03-29-2012, 08:47 AM   #48
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There is a very good FMIC comparison thread in the 3er forum. Pay attention how a particular company called for a wager on which FMIC will perform better, and back out after it was accepted.
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      03-29-2012, 09:06 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparoz View Post
There is a very good FMIC comparison thread in the 3er forum. Pay attention how a particular company called for a wager on which FMIC will perform better, and back out after it was accepted.
link?
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      03-29-2012, 10:34 AM   #50
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link?
You have already found the comparison thread and posted a couple of weeks ago. Seems like my memory is not as good as it used to be and the incident is on another thread. Will post link once I found it.
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      03-29-2012, 11:06 AM   #51
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Yeah went hunting for it. That thread but it looks like it died.

So back to my wild idea here. Would those who are tracking this thread like to see the following as much as I would?

Some service shop / sponsor to take a bone stock car and then try the top 5 FMIC's that are sold / recommended on 1 addicts and 3 ers forum. Test not on a dyno but a track course with a 3 lap min run. Reason i say no dyno is last time I was in 3rd gear at 7000 rpm I was moving forward and not looking at the picture of the super model on the wall next to me. Just saying.

A 6 day test on a bone stock car with the top 5 FMIC's to compare lap times. Day one is with stock FMIC. *note test done at the same time of day to approximate same conditions* If they times are all the same then it shows it is just a taste based on a (kind of) real world scenario.

Again just 2 more cents for thought. I think I am up to 4 cents now DOH!
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      03-29-2012, 04:46 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3dragon View Post
Yeah went hunting for it. That thread but it looks like it died.

So back to my wild idea here. Would those who are tracking this thread like to see the following as much as I would?

Some service shop / sponsor to take a bone stock car and then try the top 5 FMIC's that are sold / recommended on 1 addicts and 3 ers forum. Test not on a dyno but a track course with a 3 lap min run. Reason i say no dyno is last time I was in 3rd gear at 7000 rpm I was moving forward and not looking at the picture of the super model on the wall next to me. Just saying.

A 6 day test on a bone stock car with the top 5 FMIC's to compare lap times. Day one is with stock FMIC. *note test done at the same time of day to approximate same conditions* If they times are all the same then it shows it is just a taste based on a (kind of) real world scenario.

Again just 2 more cents for thought. I think I am up to 4 cents now DOH!
4 cents well written, and I support the independent test model 100%. We would send an intercooler for testing. Again, sorry if we came across as a little hysterical: it's a hotbutton issue for us after all of the work we've put into these coolers.
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      03-29-2012, 04:51 PM   #53
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So we are gonna test different FMICs based on lap times?
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      03-29-2012, 05:14 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric@helix View Post
4 cents well written, and I support the independent test model 100%. We would send an intercooler for testing. Again, sorry if we came across as a little hysterical: it's a hotbutton issue for us after all of the work we've put into these coolers.
I find nothing wrong with your posts. You are passionate about your product and providing a quality service/part. So if someone reads your posts from a objective standpoint and understands the a fore mentioned, your comments show you were only being human (AKA angry and not checking the blind spot).

If I was in your shoes I would have already done a ceased desist letter to them (AKA nasty graham) saying continue to copy us (if true) and expect legal action.

Last edited by m3dragon; 03-29-2012 at 05:24 PM.
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      03-29-2012, 05:23 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Papethova View Post
So we are gonna test different FMICs based on lap times?
That is the best and reproducible way I can see how to show a FMIC is helping. A dyno to me is not a real world test as it is static. So a 3 pass track run would be logical as it can be reproducible for different FMIC's.

Take all 3 runs with one FMIC and average the times. So FMICs that "cool" better and provide good airflow in theory would have better performance than those that cause lag and get heat soaked. We are talking probably hundreds of a second but if all the FMIC test show identical results with in a margin of error, could be not agree that that is a "equivalent" real world test?

As for testing if someone has a shop willing to do the installs and someone has a bone stock car to test with then that is the first hurtle. Second is asking each FMIC maker to supply one for testing and then getting a drive who is consistent on a track. *(Sorry unless you have a race LC at a minimum I would not call it a valid test. And I do not have a race LC so I am out.)

I think my goal on this thread is to get to a dollar worth of ideas. LOL
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      03-29-2012, 05:37 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3dragon View Post
That is the best and reproducible way I can see how to show a FMIC is helping. A dyno to me is not a real world test as it is static. So a 3 pass track run would be logical as it can be reproducible for different FMIC's.

Take all 3 runs with one FMIC and average the times. So FMICs that "cool" better and provide good airflow in theory would have better performance than those that cause lag and get heat soaked. We are talking probably hundreds of a second but if all the FMIC test show identical results with in a margin of error, could be not agree that that is a "equivalent" real world test?

As for testing if someone has a shop willing to do the installs and someone has a bone stock car to test with then that is the first hurtle. Second is asking each FMIC maker to supply one for testing and then getting a drive who is consistent on a track. *(Sorry unless you have a race LC at a minimum I would not call it a valid test. And I do not have a race LC so I am out.)

I think my goal on this thread is to get to a dollar worth of ideas. LOL

I just thought there are too many variables involved in a lap. I dont have much track experience so I really dont know. I guess a seasoned professional/veteran can/should churn out identical lap after lap.
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      03-29-2012, 05:40 PM   #57
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+1 to many variables for lap times to work with different FMIC's. Here in SoCal the track could be 40degrees at 8am and then become 90degrees at 1pm and then randomly drizzle at 4pm. It would also have to be an extremely experienced professional driver driving the car where he already knows the limit of the car without changing FMIC's.
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      03-29-2012, 06:22 PM   #58
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The best way to test a FMIC would be to bench test it. You would need to build some kind of "rig" do you could reproduce the results, time and time again. Thats not gonna happen when tested in a car, on teh dyno or on a track.

I think you guys need to contact consumer reports... <jk>... bc the chances of having one of the vendors here undertake this "test" are slim to none. It's just too much time and money to invest into testing a product - with no garentee of teh outcome. Most tuner product's have NEVER had any repeatable "data" done(3rd party) under lab test conditions. Instead it just boils down to a company's reputation and the quality of their parts AND marketing for said product.
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      03-29-2012, 07:36 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
The best way to test a FMIC would be to bench test it. You would need to build some kind of "rig" do you could reproduce the results, time and time again. Thats not gonna happen when tested in a car, on teh dyno or on a track.

I think you guys need to contact consumer reports... <jk>... bc the chances of having one of the vendors here undertake this "test" are slim to none. It's just too much time and money to invest into testing a product - with no garentee of teh outcome. Most tuner product's have NEVER had any repeatable "data" done(3rd party) under lab test conditions. Instead it just boils down to a company's reputation and the quality of their parts AND marketing for said product.
Dack --I think you're on to something... Instead of Consumer Reports, we could start a magazine to test FMICs, software flashes, DCIs, etc. We can call it Tuner Reports. Oh wait a second, that will probably spur on another law suit. I guess we will never know which mod (or combination of mods) is the best bang for your buck.
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      03-29-2012, 08:50 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papethova View Post
I just thought there are too many variables involved in a lap. I dont have much track experience so I really dont know. I guess a seasoned professional/veteran can/should churn out identical lap after lap.
I don't know much but I was thinking the same thing. If the performance of one FMIC is close to another it could be masked by the lap variables.

As Dackelone pointed out a bench test of some kind would probably yield the most repeatable and accurate data.
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      03-29-2012, 09:38 PM   #61
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the last few posts are a perfectly good example of how to bring a healthy discussion of tuner vs tuner; none of the attack nonsense we've seen in the past. i appreciate helix toning it down and acknowledging this fact. wonder if dack's idea sounds viable, a consumer report styled service, such doesnt exist?
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      03-29-2012, 10:28 PM   #62
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A load based dynamometer most certainly can show changes in intercooler efficiency and "real world" results!

You just have to find one with a fan that provides proper cfm and velocity if you want the most realistic results. But regardless, even with a little 3,000cfm fan, the differences are measurable, especially when there is a big change in efficiency.

Just FYI, Mustang Dynes can do simulated 1/4 mile too. Maybe find a certain shop willing to do things correctly?
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      03-29-2012, 11:51 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
The best way to test a FMIC would be to bench test it. You would need to build some kind of "rig" do you could reproduce the results, time and time again.
Unfortunately any "rig" would need to look an awful lot like a 1M, as airflow through and over the car, etc all play significant factors. An instrumented 1 mile drag at night (to keep weather consistent) is the best I can come up with that's halfway practical.
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      03-29-2012, 11:55 PM   #64
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If I knew how to do this Id volunteer and test as many FMICs as I could. My knowledge in this area is just too limited for me to properly do a scientific comparison because I dont really know what im looking for or how to measure it.

I will gladly help anyone who has the knowledge I need. Ive done similar things in medicine just never anything mechanical really.
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      03-30-2012, 01:22 PM   #65
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lots of good ideas getting passed around. Hope to see this go somewhere!
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      04-01-2012, 07:31 AM   #66
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1/4 mile and tracking will have different requirements from the fmic. A bench test can really only test the efficiency, but not the application. Furthermore different track will also have different requirements.
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