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      05-02-2012, 06:37 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Supersprint NA is going to important.

SS is consistently the highest quality stuff out there. You get what you pay for.

I've been down the cheap header road before. Wouldn't do it again.
Yeah, I get it, but $8,000 is still a lot of money for headers, downpipes, and a muffler, lol. Especially for a street car.

(Now I can't remember where I saw those prices or what exactly I was looking at - are you seeing something else? Their website is hard to navigate and the most recent update is 5 years old....)
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      05-02-2012, 07:11 PM   #24
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the MMW headers shipped out last friday for whoever ordered them! wonder if anyone here got em
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      05-02-2012, 08:24 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
Yeah, I get it, but $8,000 is still a lot of money for headers, downpipes, and a muffler, lol. Especially for a street car.

(Now I can't remember where I saw those prices or what exactly I was looking at - are you seeing something else? Their website is hard to navigate and the most recent update is 5 years old....)
I don't know where you got that pricing either, but seems higher than reality. The muffler pricing hasn't been announced yet and there is no down pipe for NA cars, so... really don't know where you got that number from.

Looking at the design of things, I suspect the HP gains in the 128 will be had from headers and the sound gains will be had from muffler. The mids are likely fine as is. The stock mids also have secondary cats in them, which is great-- it means you can run aftermarket headers without being overly smelly. If you combine it with a tune that turns off the post cat 02s and still leaves them showing as ready (such as Evolve) or run sims/angulators, it's a pretty cost effective way to gain some power

But, yes, SS's stuff is certainly not cheap.
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      05-02-2012, 08:58 PM   #26
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This is what I was looking at, but it's not from SS so who knows WTH is going on: http://www.e-exklusiv.com/128i.html

In any case, if just running the headers it's much cheaper than replacing everything from the cats back.

What do you know about Evolves tune? I heard they were working on one but I didn't think anything ever came of it?
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      05-02-2012, 09:15 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
This is what I was looking at, but it's not from SS so who knows WTH is going on: http://www.e-exklusiv.com/128i.html

In any case, if just running the headers it's much cheaper than replacing everything from the cats back.

What do you know about Evolves tune? I heard they were working on one but I didn't think anything ever came of it?
evolve sells their tune. its on their website and comes with a cable so u can go back to stock.
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      05-02-2012, 09:48 PM   #28
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evolve sells their tune. its on their website and comes with a cable so u can go back to stock.
Link? All I can find is this site (looks like a UK site, maybe?) that doesn't list any tunes for the 128i: http://www.evolveautomotive.com/1-se...ecu-remap_778/
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      05-02-2012, 10:01 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
Link? All I can find is this site (looks like a UK site, maybe?) that doesn't list any tunes for the 128i: http://www.evolveautomotive.com/1-se...ecu-remap_778/
your on their eurowebsite, I had the same problem

http://www.evolvetuning.us/bmw/1-ser...8i/engine/ecu/

also they have a post in the commerical section but I have never seen them bump it or anyhting
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      05-02-2012, 10:49 PM   #30
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I've been actively talking to Evolve. They don't have their DISA enabling tune ready to go yet, but it is in the works.
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      05-03-2012, 12:23 AM   #31
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I've been actively talking to Evolve. They don't have their DISA enabling tune ready to go yet, but it is in the works.
I'm so noob >_>. whats DISA? Is that for the 3 stage manifold? Or is that modifying our current 2 stage manifold to be more powerful?
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      05-03-2012, 05:17 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Since I checked this thread last I discovered the SuperSprint sells headers for the car. That's the route I'd go. I don't know any company that does as extensive testing as them (pretty sure they make the most power in every application they compete in) and their fitment is always spot on. Pricier, but... good things are worth paying for.

MMW's other products are for Scions



Correct. So your car won't even be overly stinky if you do headers.

I also noticed, while looking at my brothers N52, that not only are the cats in the "headers", but the "headers" are actually collectors. Collectors aren't great, cats close to the engine aren't great-- I'm more confident than before that there's some real power to be had from headers.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if people start regularly getting 295 (crank) HP from 128i's with 3 mods:
1) DISA valves
2) Good headers
3) software that enables the valves and retune for the headers.

My math is as follows...
130s and 330s make 265 hp from the same engine with the DISA valves, so 265 is pretty much a given. 295 requires 30 more, which seems like a lot... but the OEM collectors/cats really look like a crappy design. I actually think 30 is a safe bet.

And, as an extra margin, software companies claim ~10-15 hp from a tune. So, maybe more.
nothing wrong with a scion? scion = toyota, saying scions suck (remember scion is releasing the GT-86/BR-Z in north america ), is like saying toyota sucks, and toyota gave us the 3S-GTE and 2jz-GTE

collectors as in the header pipes merge? that's totally normal, impossible to do it any other way? doesn't matter as long as the merge is smooth and non restrictive... classically a X>Y>Z (say 4>2>1 in the case of a 4cyl car) gives more low down power, where a 4>1 is more high end

i'd really just love to crack the 300hp mark N/A :P. intake tune headers exhaust *crosses fingers* haha

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
Yeah, I get it, but $8,000 is still a lot of money for headers, downpipes, and a muffler, lol. Especially for a street car.

(Now I can't remember where I saw those prices or what exactly I was looking at - are you seeing something else? Their website is hard to navigate and the most recent update is 5 years old....)
costs too much yes, WAY too much, that is greater than akrapovik money...

headers are like $3k or something stupid ED: 2.1k
so yeah 5k for catback with cats, 2.1k for the headers.. plus shiping and installation, OVER 8k.

i want a laptorr, at $2500 shipped, it's a much better idea, also produces the nicest exhaust note for the N52, bar none.. prove me wrong

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Originally Posted by Greenkirby21 View Post
the MMW headers shipped out last friday for whoever ordered them! wonder if anyone here got em
i'm so excited for results

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I don't know where you got that pricing either, but seems higher than reality. The muffler pricing hasn't been announced yet and there is no down pipe for NA cars, so... really don't know where you got that number from.

Looking at the design of things, I suspect the HP gains in the 128 will be had from headers and the sound gains will be had from muffler. The mids are likely fine as is. The stock mids also have secondary cats in them, which is great-- it means you can run aftermarket headers without being overly smelly. If you combine it with a tune that turns off the post cat 02s and still leaves them showing as ready (such as Evolve) or run sims/angulators, it's a pretty cost effective way to gain some power

But, yes, SS's stuff is certainly not cheap.
http://www.supersprint.com/en/prod-3...93E280BA_.aspx

http://www.supersprint.com/en/prod-2...093E280BA.aspx

wow wtf just saw this, the 130i lists a muffler etc. but the 125i don't.. they're EXACTLY THE SAME CAR. exhaust engines EXACTLY THE SAME. idiots.

has headers (that look *okayy*).. .and catless pipes or pipes with cat... that's all you need, bar center pipe and a muffler

the MMW headers *look* muuch superior, the outlet diameter for them (check pics on facebook) are absolutely monstrously massive, and the bends are perfectly smooth... as well as the pipes extending slightly into the block to ensure a snug perfect fit... and better looking welds.. i'm going to have to say the MMW headers *look* vastly superior to the SS ones.

and that's still $1300 GBP (RE: $2100 USD + $500ish (estimate) shipping).. where MMW is ~$1000 + shipping.. headers alone... and SS's cat-back isn't cheap either, looking at $1400 GBP with cats (which is dumb, good cats are like $200 each, where theirs are like 600 *GBP* each looking at the catless pipes...).. loking at their pricing alone SS is a dodgy bunch, if they're putting cat prices up by 4-5x how much are their headers inflated by?

heck, their catback (catless) is $2500 AUD... yeah i'd rather get a laptorr.. or a custom one for $1000. and if you want cats witht eh supersprint it'll cost you close to $5k. ahahahahahaha.


mids are definitely not fine, likely a 2.25 or 2.5" (i'm guessing 2.25" from memory) stock ID, with poor bends. would see gains from a good mandrel 2.75 or 3"... i'll personally test it myself sometime in the near future :P
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      05-03-2012, 07:16 AM   #33
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Never claimed SS's stuff was cheap.

That said, they haven't announced any US pricing at all yet, so... time will tell.

I do feel confident that they'll make the most power. I've never seen an application where theirs is not the most powerful setup.
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      05-03-2012, 07:20 AM   #34
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Quote:
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Never claimed SS's stuff was cheap.

That said, they haven't announced any US pricing at all yet, so... time will tell.

I do feel confident that they'll make the most power. I've never seen an application where theirs is not the most powerful setup.
i'd understand if it was more of a full-engine setup

but with an exhaust it just comes down to piping diameter, smoothness of bends, and other lacks of restrictions

for the price they're demanding... well lets say you're not likely to get more performance than out of a $2000-$3000 combo (or cheaper even)... so then the next factor is noise... the supersprint would have to sound AMAZING for that price. like. akrapovic for N54/55 or Kreissieg for R32 VR6... you know the main difference though? those exhausts are $7k installed and are made entirely of titanium. seriously...

plus the laptorr is only 2-2.5k and sounds pretty damn amazing..
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      05-03-2012, 09:30 AM   #35
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i'd understand if it was more of a full-engine setup

but with an exhaust it just comes down to piping diameter, smoothness of bends, and other lacks of restrictions

for the price they're demanding... well lets say you're not likely to get more performance than out of a $2000-$3000 combo (or cheaper even)... so then the next factor is noise... the supersprint would have to sound AMAZING for that price. like. akrapovic for N54/55 or Kreissieg for R32 VR6... you know the main difference though? those exhausts are $7k installed and are made entirely of titanium. seriously...

plus the laptorr is only 2-2.5k and sounds pretty damn amazing..
The problem is, it's not as straight forward as that. As in, people on the e46 M3 run 3" mids to replace the stock section. That actually gains them ~45-50 hp, which is huge!

But... terrible for a street setup. While the top end gains 45-50, the bottom end and mid range is completely and utterly destroyed. To the extent that it's completely undoable on a street car.

Bumping the pipe diameter isn't a valid solution, imo. Too much compromise.

Further, the headers aren't nearly as simple as you make them out to be, either. Collector design, merge design, pipe length, scavenging effects, pipe routing, etc all make a significant difference.

SS's headers for the e46 M3 are fairly unique-- they use different width piping at different point (they're stepped). As a result, they make about 50% more power than other headers offered for the car (by any company).

Those kind of gains aren't unique to the 46, either-- on the e60, for example, SS headers make around 45 hp. Everything else makes ~30 (basically the result of removing the cats from the system). The only company that matches them is Evolve's headers... and Evolve's are produced by SS :roll eyes:.

SuperSprint is pretty unique-- they help OEs develop exhaust systems, race teams use their facilities to get them most from their cars, etc. I don't think anybody does as extensive or through testing as they do, no has the knowledge base of what it takes to actually make a better exhaust system. There's more too it than increasing the diameter and smoothing the bends, at least if you want to make a system that is better... rather than just moving the power around.

Again, though, I think every header for the 128 will make power, since you'll be eliminating the primary cats (in the headers). Just to varying degrees.
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      05-03-2012, 09:36 AM   #36
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Not to mention the issue of fitment. SS's bolt in like a factory part. My first (non SS) set of headers for my car rattled against the FCAB the entire time I owned them.

Evosport, which is a very reputable company in the BMW community (certainly more so than MMW, which has never made a BMW header as far as I know?), recently ran a group buy on a run of e46 M3 headers... most of which people returned because they couldn't get them to seal against the block.

There's lots involved in the design, and lots that can go wrong. For my money... SS is the only way I'd go. Some people would certainly rather spend less and it may work out fine. Or not. But that's not my preference.
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      05-03-2012, 10:12 AM   #37
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^ So I don't know too much about headers, but you think running the SS headers without changing anything else is sufficient? I mean, I'm running the BMW Perf. exhaust (which is mostly cosmetic, I think) but if I didn't want to get into changing mids or muffler, etc. would I see good gains with just these headers? I agree that I'd rather go the SS route versus what somebody fabbed themselves in a garage or had built in China, lol.

What about streetability? I move around a lot (military) and am likely to spend at least some time in CA, so I worry about being able to pass smog, etc. And I want decibels to be reasonable as well (i.e., not dedicated track-car loud). Any thoughts?
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      05-03-2012, 10:18 AM   #38
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Yes, SS headers alone with all other parts left stock will likely yield quite a bit.
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      05-03-2012, 03:53 PM   #39
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Just watched the videos of the laptorr exhaust and holy shit! Sounds awesome. Would it fit the 128i and where can.it be ordered?
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      05-03-2012, 05:29 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
^ So I don't know too much about headers, but you think running the SS headers without changing anything else is sufficient? I mean, I'm running the BMW Perf. exhaust (which is mostly cosmetic, I think) but if I didn't want to get into changing mids or muffler, etc. would I see good gains with just these headers? I agree that I'd rather go the SS route versus what somebody fabbed themselves in a garage or had built in China, lol.

What about streetability? I move around a lot (military) and am likely to spend at least some time in CA, so I worry about being able to pass smog, etc. And I want decibels to be reasonable as well (i.e., not dedicated track-car loud). Any thoughts?
I suspect the headers will be where the power is. But, we'll see.
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      05-04-2012, 05:43 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
The problem is, it's not as straight forward as that. As in, people on the e46 M3 run 3" mids to replace the stock section. That actually gains them ~45-50 hp, which is huge!

But... terrible for a street setup. While the top end gains 45-50, the bottom end and mid range is completely and utterly destroyed. To the extent that it's completely undoable on a street car.

Bumping the pipe diameter isn't a valid solution, imo. Too much compromise.
50hp gain sounds reasonable, but it's physically impossible to lower the midrange by THAT MUCH that it would become undrivable... back pressure is bad, period, if anyone says that 'a little is good' they're retarded and wrong

the only downside (well two i guess... ooh make that three) to oversized exhausts is ... excessive noise.. drone (cabin resonance can worsen) and increased (too high even) pollution from exhaust gases.

the high compression ratio of the stock M3 means you literally cannot no matter what unless you REALLY break something (bad tune for example.. or massively oversized cams, but that's a different story entirely), destroy low end drivability... worsen slightly sure, but impossible to totally ruin, will always be in excess of N52 cars at the very least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Further, the headers aren't nearly as simple as you make them out to be, either. Collector design, merge design, pipe length, scavenging effects, pipe routing, etc all make a significant difference.

SS's headers for the e46 M3 are fairly unique-- they use different width piping at different point (they're stepped). As a result, they make about 50% more power than other headers offered for the car (by any company).

Those kind of gains aren't unique to the 46, either-- on the e60, for example, SS headers make around 45 hp. Everything else makes ~30 (basically the result of removing the cats from the system). The only company that matches them is Evolve's headers... and Evolve's are produced by SS :roll eyes:.

SuperSprint is pretty unique-- they help OEs develop exhaust systems, race teams use their facilities to get them most from their cars, etc. I don't think anybody does as extensive or through testing as they do, no has the knowledge base of what it takes to actually make a better exhaust system. There's more too it than increasing the diameter and smoothing the bends, at least if you want to make a system that is better... rather than just moving the power around.

Again, though, I think every header for the 128 will make power, since you'll be eliminating the primary cats (in the headers). Just to varying degrees.
exhaust gas scavenging increases mileage but reduces power. that's all.

different width piping, yes, i did say that reducing restriction was the number one goal, whether better bends, pipe diameters, smoother merges.. it's all in the same goal, getting the exhaust gas out of there literally as fast as possible.. i did say a lot more than 'smoothing bends and increasing diameter' under the blanket term of 'increasing flow'

i believe that supersprint is very good quality, but in no way could they justify the price of $8000 for the full system in my opinion.

though really, give it another week and we'll see how the MMW headers perform on their own, and likely in combinations with various cat-back systems.. there's what.. 20 that got sold and shipped out this week?


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Just watched the videos of the laptorr exhaust and holy shit! Sounds awesome. Would it fit the 128i and where can.it be ordered?
of course it would, same engine same exhaust pathing as any other (inc the 130i)

i know right.. it is catless though, so it's straight from the headers back with resonators and muffler, if that's a huge issue

a dude sells it on these forums (and E90post), it's 2-2.5k shipped pretty much anywhere, so is nooootttt cheap by any means still.

watch the video for E92 M3 though.. oh wow, just wow

ED: i just youtubed supersprint exhausts on 130i. sounds like crap... exactly like stock but a little less rumble and a TINY BIT louder. nothing to write home about by any means.

muffler sounds like it must be fairly restrictive still (heck, it looks like it, with the stock-like design)

might be better in person, but very average in video :/... after youtubing the stock exhaust sound, stock sounds better in video :/. actually sounds pretty good, i don't get to hear my car fromt he outside often haha

Last edited by flinchy; 05-04-2012 at 05:55 AM.
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      05-04-2012, 09:40 AM   #42
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50hp gain sounds reasonable, but it's physically impossible to lower the midrange by THAT MUCH that it would become undrivable... back pressure is bad, period, if anyone says that 'a little is good' they're retarded and wrong

the only downside (well two i guess... ooh make that three) to oversized exhausts is ... excessive noise.. drone (cabin resonance can worsen) and increased (too high even) pollution from exhaust gases.

the high compression ratio of the stock M3 means you literally cannot no matter what unless you REALLY break something (bad tune for example.. or massively oversized cams, but that's a different story entirely), destroy low end drivability... worsen slightly sure, but impossible to totally ruin, will always be in excess of N52 cars at the very least.
Just to show that I wasn't lying..

spreadsheet of some various e46 M3 exhaust setups.

Check out the Bora midpipe. The Borla isn't anywhere near as extreme as the racing midpipes I was describing, yet even on this (which they consider a street setup), the torque at 2800 rpm (highway cruising RPM) goes from 214 (all stock) to 123 with the midpipe. You absolutely can kill your torque and street drivability with the wrong setup.



The midpipe above is considered a street part still. The mids I was talking about, that people use for race cars (that gain the big numbers) are far, far worse. I can also say that with first hand experience, btw-- I have one of those pipes on my e36 M3 race car (385 hp NA, from the S50B32 (euro spec e36 M3 engine)). It's completely dead below 5000 rpm (not what you'd expect from a 385 hp, 2315 lb car :P).
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Last edited by Obioban; 05-04-2012 at 09:49 AM.
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      05-04-2012, 09:46 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flinchy View Post
exhaust gas scavenging increases mileage but reduces power. that's all.

different width piping, yes, i did say that reducing restriction was the number one goal, whether better bends, pipe diameters, smoother merges.. it's all in the same goal, getting the exhaust gas out of there literally as fast as possible.. i did say a lot more than 'smoothing bends and increasing diameter' under the blanket term of 'increasing flow'

i believe that supersprint is very good quality, but in no way could they justify the price of $8000 for the full system in my opinion.

though really, give it another week and we'll see how the MMW headers perform on their own, and likely in combinations with various cat-back systems.. there's what.. 20 that got sold and shipped out this week?
I have no doubt the MMWs will make power. Hell, on the e60 M5, the aftermarket will take the stock headers, cut the cats out and replace them with straight pipe, and resell them... and they gain 30+ hp. The stock 128 headers look to be far worse of a design than the e60 M5, and they still have the cats to get rid of. I just think that the SS headers will make more power. Which makes sense, as they have a far more advanced research, development, and testing program than, well, pretty much anyone else in the aftermarket.
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      05-04-2012, 11:27 AM   #44
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And likely have the best fitment as well, as they have demonstrated time and time again in the past.
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