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      04-24-2012, 01:24 PM   #23
Bimmer-Bob
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Well, if your car is indeed entering a "limp mode," wouldn't that be logged as well?
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      04-24-2012, 01:33 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
Well, if your car is indeed entering a "limp mode," wouldn't that be logged as well?
yeah, I plan on having the dealer scan the car, I am just more intrigued that a "engine torque reduction for overheating brakes" system even exists. This is now just a research project for me, just need to figure out a way to sneak into the Greenville, SC plant next week when I am down there.
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      04-24-2012, 02:01 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by SkinnyVT View Post
yeah, I plan on having the dealer scan the car, I am just more intrigued that a "engine torque reduction for overheating brakes" system even exists.
Agreed, it's pretty fascinating and technically impressive what might be going on behind the scenes with these cars, even if it's also quite frustrating. Besides the fact that the car can just, on it's own, decide to cut power, I'm bothered by the fact that the end user is unable to access any of the data the car might be compiling. We should be able to generate some sort of "vehicle history report" or something. I always wonder what the heck the dealer sees when they scan my key fob...
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      04-24-2012, 04:29 PM   #26
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600 deg "C" <<<<< thats 1112 deg "F" !!!!!!!!!!!!!

if i heated my brakes to anywhere near that at lime rock ill eat my hat... and if i did then the BREMBO brakes are a fasinating piece of equiptment and every one that has suffered heat related issues is lying ( you know what i mean )

Ive scanned my car hundreds of times..never logged a brake temp fault.. always the same DSC / TC off noted... no shifting faults, no speed faults, no over revs, no redline...nothing...

BUT ... i havent checked since lime rock last week so. i will do so tonight or tomorrow..

Oh BTW my car triggered another oil service ( second one BTW ) at 19k... first one at 9.5k ... i guess the 6.9 mpg at the track somewhat effected the algorythm for fuel consumption

I agree with what was posted for the 5 series.. but i am gonna guess that the system may be looking for extended brake application and no speed reduction etc ....

also, after my performance brake update, my car was retrofitted so the dcs "knows" it has bigger brakes...
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      04-24-2012, 04:32 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
Well, if your car is indeed entering a "limp mode," wouldn't that be logged as well?
no. ther is no fault for the oil temp overheat that i ever saw.
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      04-24-2012, 05:43 PM   #28
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the moral of this whole story is that an e30 is better than an e82
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      04-24-2012, 07:33 PM   #29
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Wait till you see the 5000 rpm red line. There's no CEL, no codes, and I don't know if the dealer even sees anything. And it is not reduced torque. I had full power from 3000 to 5000 and it just stops. If you search, you'll see scottn2retro posted about it happening to him, so I know I'm not crazy.

Or maybe that one is 135i only, to prevent turbos overheating. It pisses me off that we have to hunt all over the internet to find out how our cars work.
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      04-24-2012, 08:00 PM   #30
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First, i have to ask for forgiveness to the forum gods.... and all of you ...



Hello my name is alex and i was wrong !!!!!

There is a note >> not a fault <<< in the DSC control unit for "power reduction" relating to POSSIBLE brake overheat.... ill ask some questions tomorrow and have hopefully some more details

Ive got a buzz now so ill have to post pics of the report tomorrow...but it does seem to be true.
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      04-25-2012, 02:02 PM   #31
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I'm still waiting on some more indepth info on this fault logged in the dcs memory.


My car had no other fault accept szl calibration. it was off 1 deg.. must have been from alignment when i put in the camber plates....

basically all this says is a performance reduction happened... doesnt say when or where or for how long ... it does say if nothing else wrong just delete and move on.

I wonder if dsc is recording pressure and brake applications in regards to speed ... in my mind this is the only way the car could think that there could be an iminent possible overheat of the brakes..

Mind you my brakes were 100% all day and showed no signs of any issues whats so ever.

also i guess my brakes reached a possible 1200 degrees according to the prior post for the 5 series notation... Brembos aint so bad after all..LOL
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      04-26-2012, 06:13 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinnyVT View Post
the moral of this whole story is that an e30 is better than an e82
Well the moral is at least that 128i and 135i can't be used for serious competition.

Remember Randy Pobst said this car feels like it was designed by the safety engineers? I've always said BMW thinks they're my mother.

Whatever, I'm never going to do serious competition anyway. So I still love my car.
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      04-26-2012, 08:21 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
Well the moral is at least that 128i and 135i can't be used for serious competition.
Gary, 128's are raced in continental tire series. also any car that's going to compete in any serious fashion would need many modifications and cooling upgrades so saying our cars in stock form are not made for serious competition could also apply to any car in stock form. right?
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      04-26-2012, 08:24 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelblue View Post
Gary, 128's are raced in continental tire series. also any car that's going to compete in any serious fashion would need many modifications and cooling upgrades so saying our cars in stock form are not made for serious competition could also apply to any car in stock form. right?
If you were really going to race these cars, couldn't you just pull the DSC module entirely?
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      04-26-2012, 08:51 PM   #35
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Mike,
that would be one of the first things that comes out
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      04-26-2012, 08:51 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelblue View Post
Gary, 128's are raced in continental tire series. also any car that's going to compete in any serious fashion would need many modifications and cooling upgrades so saying our cars in stock form are not made for serious competition could also apply to any car in stock form. right?
I'm talking about the limp mode, "engine output was temporarily reduced (measure for preventing possible overheating of brakes)". As discussed earlier, cooling will not help. It's based on the ECU guessing how hot your pads must be based on your speed and pedal pressure and a max allowable temperature around 1110 degrees. My pads can handle 500 degrees more than that. PFC pads can handle 900 degrees more. But BMW will not allow it. No one here has heard of another car besides current BMWs that does that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
If you were really going to race these cars, couldn't you just pull the DSC module entirely?
That's similar to what I was looking into in post 21. You can disable the DSC/ABS in E36 and E46, but (1) we don't know if it works in E82 without causing anything else to fail, and (2) we don't know if that disables the 1100 degree brakes limp.

If I can confirm that we can disable DSC/ABS without hurting anything else, I'll try it. But good luck getting any info on that out of BMW.
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      04-26-2012, 09:03 PM   #37
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Quote:
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Mike,
that would be one of the first things that comes out
Okay, I don't know anything about that. When I go to NASA events, they have what I'm calling serious competition races going on. Do those cars have the electronics that manage limp modes removed?
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      04-26-2012, 09:34 PM   #38
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Gary, I don't know about the nasa races but in the big league you know they run a completely different ECU module. I am pretty sure the cars racing in club events run different ECU's as well
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      04-26-2012, 10:31 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
Okay, I don't know anything about that. When I go to NASA events, they have what I'm calling serious competition races going on. Do those cars have the electronics that manage limp modes removed?
All the owners of NASA race cars that I've talked to remove any electronics that may get in the way. Including steering angle sensors to completely disable DSC/DTC, or at least add a bypass switch. It's part of the first things they do, remove anything that may slow them down.. lol
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      04-27-2012, 05:31 AM   #40
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Gary,
With as hot as our brakes have gotten you'd think the ecu would have limited power. I've never had this limp mode. I don't think its on the 135...if it is the limits are much much higher.
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      04-27-2012, 05:42 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Focusedintntions View Post
Gary,
With as hot as our brakes have gotten you'd think the ecu would have limited power. I've never had this limp mode. I don't think its on the 135...if it is the limits are much much higher.
The first post I ever saw about the brake temp limp was from a guy who got it tracking a 135i after he installed a tune.

I've had the temporary 5000 rpm rev limit between 2 and 3 and between 9 and 10 on Summit Main, and other temporary limp modes with CELs on Summit Main.

Anyway, it wouldn't make sense to give 135i a higher temp limit because it uses the same pad compound with the same max temperature.
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      04-27-2012, 06:13 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelblue View Post
Gary, I don't know about the nasa races but in the big league you know they run a completely different ECU module. I am pretty sure the cars racing in club events run different ECU's as well
Okay, I'm sure a different ECU would fix it. Where do you buy an alternative ECU?

...adding: I found a Motorsport DSC/ABS system for E46 at Turner for $11,684.60, or $2500 less for a used one. God knows what an ECU must cost. http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-37...g-harness.aspx

Last edited by GaryS; 04-27-2012 at 08:58 AM.
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      04-27-2012, 08:45 AM   #43
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Here's a post about the 5000 rpm rev limit from Scottn2retro's driver Ralph Warren.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imported_ralphwarren View Post
Limp Mode - If that's what it is called then fine. I call it a dynamic rev-limiter. It seemed to me that the rev-limiter would simply drop to between 4000 and 5000 depending on conditions. What amazed me was how quickly the car came back and was drivable at speed again. It took me 2 sessions to figure it out and manage the car to keep it from happening and still keep my lap times decent. I used a few enduro racing tricks which basically boil down to short shifting and lifting early - where necessary. Where there was little to gain by staying on the gas… I was off the gas. Where it was important to blast out of a corner at full-throttle… then that's what I did. The hard part about driving like that is keeping the late threshold braking, cornering speed and exit speed maximized. It's easy to let those things slide when you are trying to save gas, cool the car or run in enduro mode. I also ran every session with the heater on full blast which I'm sure helped.
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      04-27-2012, 11:02 AM   #44
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One more update about the brake temp limp mode. I checked with Turner and Bimmerworld techs. They both get lots of queries about the brake temp limp mode on N54/N55 cars. There's no street legal solution. As Kori said, the factory engine management system must be removed and replaced with a stand-alone racing engine management system. The hardware cost is enormous and engineers who know how to tune them charge about $2000-4000 for one or two days testing/tuning.
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