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      06-14-2012, 11:49 AM   #111
The HACK
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Maybe this is really obvious, but I think what we want is more than just correcting oversteer when it happens. That's where I am right now. I take a turn faster and faster each lap until I start having to catch the tail, and then I might get a little scared and back off the next time. Where we need to get to is planning for the oversteer, making it happen, and then correcting on purpose.

I see in vids of real racers that they turn in much earlier than I could without going off the track, and they throttle on much harder than I could without spinning, and to make that work they're making two or three pretty big corrections, which they were obviously planning all along.
"Real" racers have real race cars and they behave much differently than your average street car, or cars that have some modifications put in. It's different when they need to extract the last 1/10th of a second out of each corner to stay even with their competitor, vs. just driving fast on a track in a car without cages IMO.

Having said that. This stuff CAN NOT BE LEARNED without being properly taught, and it can not be learned overnight. What you see racers doing, if you try and do it with about a dozen events under your belt, you will surely spin out or crash. They're not doing it to "anticipate" spin or catch spins. They're doing it to ADD GRIP to the end that's losing it.

Imagine, let's say in a steady state, a skid pad maximum G achieved is 1.2 G on an entry level R-Comp. When you see a professional race car driver chop at the wheels, what he's essentially doing is, the tires have already reached the 1.2 G lateral load, and the ONLY way it can achieve more lateral acceleration, is by temporarily straightening out the tires...Basically alternating between say, 1.05 G and 1.4 G to average more than the 1.2 G steady state through the entire turn. A REALLY good driver will be able to use his or her car control skills to go FASTER, not merely to recover.

HAVING SAID THAT. These aren't the type of skills that you'll learn on your own, and they're certainly not skills you should attempt without at least some basic fundamentals down already. If you can't look and think 2-3 turns ahead, execute a consistent, nearly perfect line lap after lap at ANY SPEED, balance and steer your vehicle with both throttle and brake at will, comfortably use all the track within less than 1/2 tire width to the edge consistently, able to pick out the ideal line without the aide of someone in the passenger seat, AND be able to drive at least 1-1.5 car width from the ideal line at 95% of the lap time achieved driving the ideal line, then trying to learn to add grip through the hands to either end of the car would be like trying learn to dunk as a 4'9" midget.

To the OP: It is unfortunate, but I've found that most people have their big incident at the advanced intermediate level of driving, or anywhere from their 10th-15th day on track. This is usually the most dangerous part of any driver's development, they've gotten fast enough to keep up with guys who's got more skills, or cars that are faster, but not enough skills to gain any sort of "margin for error," and not enough experience to really know when you're in trouble. I got lucky, I had a massive spin at a track with a ton of run-off at my 5th event, where I was moved up to the "B" level for the first time. After that you certainly learn to respect your own limitations.

To anyone starting out or progressing through the sport, I highly recommend sprinkling in some additional training outside of the track, like doing indoor karting or autocross or car control clinics. I especially like indoor karting because the dynamics on a kart is like a car but multiplied 1,000x fold. All the vehicle dynamics, weight transfer, understeer and oversteer happen at a much faster pace with much smaller input. If you can manage a kart well, you can manage a car much easier. The biggest "growth spurt" for me as a driver was that one year where I was literally going to the kart track once a week after work, and doing auto-crosses 2-3 times a year, and took a wet skid pad event and literally spent close to an hour on a wet, slippery skidpad trying to keep the car going around in a nice, perpetual slide.

Lastly...If you learn only by crashing, then this is going to be a VERY expensive sport. You learn in this sport by having the right fundamentals and having your head screwed on straight. You only learn by crashing when you get to the professional ranks. Not saying none of us should ever crash...But I prefer to crash when it's someone else's car.
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      06-14-2012, 01:42 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
"Real" racers have real race cars and they behave much differently than your average street car, or cars that have some modifications put in. It's different when they need to extract the last 1/10th of a second out of each corner to stay even with their competitor, vs. just driving fast on a track in a car without cages IMO.

Having said that. This stuff CAN NOT BE LEARNED without being properly taught, and it can not be learned overnight. What you see racers doing, if you try and do it with about a dozen events under your belt, you will surely spin out or crash. They're not doing it to "anticipate" spin or catch spins. They're doing it to ADD GRIP to the end that's losing it.

Imagine, let's say in a steady state, a skid pad maximum G achieved is 1.2 G on an entry level R-Comp. When you see a professional race car driver chop at the wheels, what he's essentially doing is, the tires have already reached the 1.2 G lateral load, and the ONLY way it can achieve more lateral acceleration, is by temporarily straightening out the tires...Basically alternating between say, 1.05 G and 1.4 G to average more than the 1.2 G steady state through the entire turn. A REALLY good driver will be able to use his or her car control skills to go FASTER, not merely to recover.

HAVING SAID THAT. These aren't the type of skills that you'll learn on your own, and they're certainly not skills you should attempt without at least some basic fundamentals down already. If you can't look and think 2-3 turns ahead, execute a consistent, nearly perfect line lap after lap at ANY SPEED, balance and steer your vehicle with both throttle and brake at will, comfortably use all the track within less than 1/2 tire width to the edge consistently, able to pick out the ideal line without the aide of someone in the passenger seat, AND be able to drive at least 1-1.5 car width from the ideal line at 95% of the lap time achieved driving the ideal line, then trying to learn to add grip through the hands to either end of the car would be like trying learn to dunk as a 4'9" midget.

To the OP: It is unfortunate, but I've found that most people have their big incident at the advanced intermediate level of driving, or anywhere from their 10th-15th day on track. This is usually the most dangerous part of any driver's development, they've gotten fast enough to keep up with guys who's got more skills, or cars that are faster, but not enough skills to gain any sort of "margin for error," and not enough experience to really know when you're in trouble. I got lucky, I had a massive spin at a track with a ton of run-off at my 5th event, where I was moved up to the "B" level for the first time. After that you certainly learn to respect your own limitations.

To anyone starting out or progressing through the sport, I highly recommend sprinkling in some additional training outside of the track, like doing indoor karting or autocross or car control clinics. I especially like indoor karting because the dynamics on a kart is like a car but multiplied 1,000x fold. All the vehicle dynamics, weight transfer, understeer and oversteer happen at a much faster pace with much smaller input. If you can manage a kart well, you can manage a car much easier. The biggest "growth spurt" for me as a driver was that one year where I was literally going to the kart track once a week after work, and doing auto-crosses 2-3 times a year, and took a wet skid pad event and literally spent close to an hour on a wet, slippery skidpad trying to keep the car going around in a nice, perpetual slide.

Lastly...If you learn only by crashing, then this is going to be a VERY expensive sport. You learn in this sport by having the right fundamentals and having your head screwed on straight. You only learn by crashing when you get to the professional ranks. Not saying none of us should ever crash...But I prefer to crash when it's someone else's car.
Some good points in here. If you watch an in car shot of a race car, even street cars on r-comps with a very high level driver behind the wheel, the car looks like it has waves of grip. What I mean by this is steering and throttle remain constant but it looks like one second the car is yanked in the next it's settling again. Slicks and r-comps are most efficient at a certain slip angle, lets say 3 degrees. That means that to extract the maximum potential of the car, you need to execute a 4 wheel slide to the tune of 3 degrees from turn in to track out. How many guys do you know that can do that? I believe that is what you are getting at in the first half of your post. And when you say pro drivers correct themselves- going from 1.04 to 1.5 g's for example, I'm going to disagree with you there. Check out some telemetry, g's are constant. Race cars are setup for oversteer on turn in and then to settle on throttle. The sooner the car rotates the sooner you can get on the gas. The downside to this is, as you said, most people can not handle this and just spin. The telemetry should be a steady swing from the max vertical g around the outside to the max lateral g, meaning that you are using 100% of your cars grip from turn in to track out. What I find amazing is where lets say an advanced/pro driver is faster than lets say an intermediate driver. Mid corner speeds and exit speeds are almost all exactly the same, the big difference comes from entry speed. Like the example I used for the telemetry, pro drivers use 100% of the cars grip from turn in to track out, slightly more novice drivers have learned and practiced the slow in fast out method. This means no trail braking, no trailing throttle oversteer etc. is used, but they set up such a beautiful exit that they leave the corner as fast as anyone. So the quicker you get, you start to look for speed on corner entry.

One more thought, I don't agree with you saying you are adding grip to either end of the car. I know what you meant, but it is misleading to say you are ever -adding- grip. There is no such thing. Your car has a set amount of grip, manipulating where the weight of the car is moves this grip around but does not add grip. I know this is what you meant, but I just wanted to clarify for anyone crazy enough to read all of this lol.
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      06-14-2012, 04:03 PM   #113
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One more thought, I don't agree with you saying you are adding grip to either end of the car. I know what you meant, but it is misleading to say you are ever -adding- grip. There is no such thing. Your car has a set amount of grip, manipulating where the weight of the car is moves this grip around but does not add grip. I know this is what you meant, but I just wanted to clarify for anyone crazy enough to read all of this lol.
you can add mechanical grip by softening the springs/coilovers, softer ARB or smaller radius wheels with more sidewall
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      06-14-2012, 05:08 PM   #114
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We're about to take this thread off topic but...

I'll have to find telemetry data to support my claim, but if I'm correct, you'll see speed and lateral G ramp up fairly smoothly, but once it gets to the limit of the tire's grip, you'll find a really good data acquisition graph to show "vibrations" or what I called jaggedness soon after turn-in, or after the suspension sets. I recall someone relaying a story about Ayrton Senna, during the "turbocharged" 4 cylinder era, his engineers were looking at his throttle telemetry and was puzzled to find that through certain turns it looked like he was modulating the throttle very rapidly, and when the engineers asked him about it, he said that if he had gotten off or stayed off throttle, then the turbo would take a while to spool up on the exit and he would lose precious time exiting the turn. So in order to keep the turbo spooled up, he "jabs" the throttle repeatedly to ease the acceleration load while keeping the revs and exhaust pressure up to keep the turbo loaded.

Seemed counter-intuitive at the time, until I took a ride with a friend that was driving in the Speed World Challenge at the time. I noticed that at the exit of slow speed turns, he would "see-saw" at the steering wheel. I was a bit puzzled, since throughout my entire career we were told "smooth is fast," and here he is, the prior year's SWC rookie of the year, at one time my instructor, who repeated that mantra to me before, doing exactly the opposite. So I asked him about it once we pitted the car, and he said, basically, at the limit of the tire's available grip, you can temporarily increase the amount of lateral grip available to you by straightening out the wheel a little bit and then return it back to the previous "set" position, and if you do this rapidly in very small increments, you can continue to keep the suspension "set" without unloading the weight of the car, but decrease the lateral load on the tire enough to keep it from "losing grip" by going PAST the optimum slip angle of the tires.

So perhaps the way I explained it in the previous post does not describe the process in the correct manner, but the basic concept is the same. You can prevent either end of the car from losing grip, or going into "understeer" or "oversteer," by sort of "chopping" at the wheels a little bit at a time. But you must do this just right before the tire transitions from static to kinetic grip, otherwise the benefit of it to "going fast" is all but eliminated once you're in kinetic friction (because the act of straightening out the tires will only bring it back from kinetic friction coefficient to static, rather than move that boundary to a higher speed threshold).

But, regardless, in order to execute said maneuver, you must be able to FEEL the car right before either end of the tire looses grip, and do the see-sawing of the wheel before the car pushes or starts a spin. And that ability comes from having done a tone of wet skidpad or karting IMO, since both will give you more opportunity to explore that boundary and find ways to expand it without wadding up your car. If you can feel the level of grip on the contact patch through your hands (for the front wheels) and your ss (for the rear wheels), and you can accurately predict when either end is going to lose grip, then you can safely try and see if you can retain more speed from turn-in to exit by carrying more speed into the turn and using your hands to "add grip*."

*Using your hands to add grip is still the most accurate and easiest way to visualize what I'm talking about, even though it technically and logically does not make sense.
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      06-14-2012, 05:30 PM   #115
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Race cars are setup for oversteer on turn in and then to settle on throttle. The sooner the car rotates the sooner you can get on the gas. The downside to this is, as you said, most people can not handle this and just spin.
This. Because they rotate on turn in, they get their wheels straight and can get on the throttle hard without spinning. For some corners, trail braking is the way to rotate on turn in. But I think on most fast corners, a more difficult technique is required, which is getting the rotation done with a too-early, really decisive turn in, and then deal with it.

So learning to do that is my big goal. I'm mostly a tremendous pussy driving my DD on track and will never go even 9/10 in high-risk corners, but I think I can learn this approach with enough practice. I'm not really expecting to learn it in one day or even one summer, but it's what I'm working towards.
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      06-14-2012, 11:15 PM   #116
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you can add mechanical grip by softening the springs/coilovers, softer ARB or smaller radius wheels with more sidewall
I'd like to see you do that mid corner.
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      06-14-2012, 11:33 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
We're about to take this thread off topic but...

I'll have to find telemetry data to support my claim, but if I'm correct, you'll see speed and lateral G ramp up fairly smoothly, but once it gets to the limit of the tire's grip, you'll find a really good data acquisition graph to show "vibrations" or what I called jaggedness soon after turn-in, or after the suspension sets. I recall someone relaying a story about Ayrton Senna, during the "turbocharged" 4 cylinder era, his engineers were looking at his throttle telemetry and was puzzled to find that through certain turns it looked like he was modulating the throttle very rapidly, and when the engineers asked him about it, he said that if he had gotten off or stayed off throttle, then the turbo would take a while to spool up on the exit and he would lose precious time exiting the turn. So in order to keep the turbo spooled up, he "jabs" the throttle repeatedly to ease the acceleration load while keeping the revs and exhaust pressure up to keep the turbo loaded.

Seemed counter-intuitive at the time, until I took a ride with a friend that was driving in the Speed World Challenge at the time. I noticed that at the exit of slow speed turns, he would "see-saw" at the steering wheel. I was a bit puzzled, since throughout my entire career we were told "smooth is fast," and here he is, the prior year's SWC rookie of the year, at one time my instructor, who repeated that mantra to me before, doing exactly the opposite. So I asked him about it once we pitted the car, and he said, basically, at the limit of the tire's available grip, you can temporarily increase the amount of lateral grip available to you by straightening out the wheel a little bit and then return it back to the previous "set" position, and if you do this rapidly in very small increments, you can continue to keep the suspension "set" without unloading the weight of the car, but decrease the lateral load on the tire enough to keep it from "losing grip" by going PAST the optimum slip angle of the tires.

So perhaps the way I explained it in the previous post does not describe the process in the correct manner, but the basic concept is the same. You can prevent either end of the car from losing grip, or going into "understeer" or "oversteer," by sort of "chopping" at the wheels a little bit at a time. But you must do this just right before the tire transitions from static to kinetic grip, otherwise the benefit of it to "going fast" is all but eliminated once you're in kinetic friction (because the act of straightening out the tires will only bring it back from kinetic friction coefficient to static, rather than move that boundary to a higher speed threshold).

But, regardless, in order to execute said maneuver, you must be able to FEEL the car right before either end of the tire looses grip, and do the see-sawing of the wheel before the car pushes or starts a spin. And that ability comes from having done a tone of wet skidpad or karting IMO, since both will give you more opportunity to explore that boundary and find ways to expand it without wadding up your car. If you can feel the level of grip on the contact patch through your hands (for the front wheels) and your ss (for the rear wheels), and you can accurately predict when either end is going to lose grip, then you can safely try and see if you can retain more speed from turn-in to exit by carrying more speed into the turn and using your hands to "add grip*."

*Using your hands to add grip is still the most accurate and easiest way to visualize what I'm talking about, even though it technically and logically does not make sense.
Yeah, I wasn't sure if this is what you meant exactly. This is a very, very advanced technique. Hugely, HUGELY helpful in a FWD car. I think the best way to describe this is in a single sentence, not an essay.

You are correlating the maximum amount of grip with the minimum amount of steering.

When you reach the limit of grip the best thing to do, assuming the front of the car is washing out first (that is HUGELY important), is to reduce the steering angle. You will keep the same arc and scrub off less speed. If you are driving competitively it also saves wear on the fronts and makes the car more adjustable to other cars. The best way to think of it is like this. When driving a perfectly balanced rwd car, lets say an S2000, around constant radius sweepers ie: Turn 2 at WSIR, the car should be in a perfect 4 wheel slide. The only steering necessary is slight countersteer when the rear starts giving up quicker than the front. When you say to reduce steering, you are doing the EXACT same thing, just for the opposite end of the car. Think of it as countersteer for understeer (if that makes sense LOL).

However none of this adds grip, the goal is to remain at a constant grip throughout the corner because while it is not possible to add extra grip, it is possible to lose it. I'd love to see that telemetry if you have it.

One final way to look at this and what the normal drivers reaction is and then I'll shut up. When your car loses grip at the front end, the car goes straight. What most people do is add more steering and more brakes. Think of this like bicep curls. When the car is understeering it is like your last rep. You are struggling to get it up but are failing half way. Adding more steering is like adding more weight. You are requesting more grip that wasn't there in the first place. If brakes are added in the extra steering angle eventually grabs and there you have snap oversteer.
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      06-14-2012, 11:37 PM   #118
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This. Because they rotate on turn in, they get their wheels straight and can get on the throttle hard without spinning. For some corners, trail braking is the way to rotate on turn in. But I think on most fast corners, a more difficult technique is required, which is getting the rotation done with a too-early, really decisive turn in, and then deal with it.

So learning to do that is my big goal. I'm mostly a tremendous pussy driving my DD on track and will never go even 9/10 in high-risk corners, but I think I can learn this approach with enough practice. I'm not really expecting to learn it in one day or even one summer, but it's what I'm working towards.
Exactly, the earlier the car is pointed to the exit, the earlier you get on the gas. Studs can many times do this before the apex One observation, I'm not sure what your setup is exactly, but if your car isn't loose as hell, it can mean you have to be pretty pronounced w/ the techniques to get this done. This means it's really easy to just go way overboard or not enough, and I'm with you. Until I'm trailering in my 944 I have to drive my 135 home.
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      06-15-2012, 04:55 AM   #119
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I'd like to see you do that mid corner.
HAHaha! OMG that made me laugh.
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      06-15-2012, 07:59 AM   #120
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One observation, I'm not sure what your setup is exactly, but if your car isn't loose as hell, it can mean you have to be pretty pronounced w/ the techniques to get this done. This means it's really easy to just go way overboard or not enough, and I'm with you. Until I'm trailering in my 944 I have to drive my 135 home.
My second instructor ever drove this way in a stock C5 Z06 on street tires. It was so much fun, I think all the time about getting the same car. Anyway, I'm such a slow learner, there's plenty of time to decide.
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      06-15-2012, 09:18 AM   #121
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I'd like to see you do that mid corner.
sorry I didn't pay attention to the context of discussion

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HAHaha! OMG that made me laugh.
happy you got a giggle
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      06-15-2012, 04:32 PM   #122
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HAVING SAID THAT. These aren't the type of skills that you'll learn on your own, and they're certainly not skills you should attempt without at least some basic fundamentals down already. If you can't look and think 2-3 turns ahead, execute a consistent, nearly perfect line lap after lap at ANY SPEED, balance and steer your vehicle with both throttle and brake at will, comfortably use all the track within less than 1/2 tire width to the edge consistently, able to pick out the ideal line without the aide of someone in the passenger seat, AND be able to drive at least 1-1.5 car width from the ideal line at 95% of the lap time achieved driving the ideal line, then trying to learn to add grip through the hands to either end of the car would be like trying learn to dunk as a 4'9" midget.
This is something that didn't learn on my until after my second CCA school. I wasn't looking at the big picture of what to accomplish while on the track since I was so absorbed in how my car behaved instead of how I behaved in relation to the car. While sitting on the pit lane area, I chatted with a senior member of the driving school to find out what the objectives are in order to move up in class. I thought is was about speed, but learned it was more about consistency and a smooth and controlled handling of the car. I came to realize my ham-fisted driving instincts were not conducive to track driving. I've never had so much fun, frustration, and fear all at the same time.
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      06-15-2012, 07:18 PM   #123
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My second instructor ever drove this way in a stock C5 Z06 on street tires. It was so much fun, I think all the time about getting the same car. Anyway, I'm such a slow learner, there's plenty of time to decide.
I LOVE that car. It's a stupid bargain. 20 grand, give it a mild prep and it'll run almost anything off the track.

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sorry I didn't pay attention to the context of discussion
Lol, don't blame you, that's a lot of writing.
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      06-15-2012, 07:37 PM   #124
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for now, yes, going to give it a chance and see how it looks and if I warm up to it.
I have an ER kit. I painted the front end white to match the car. You can look at their race car to get an idea of what exposed CF will look like. I personally think it looks ugly on a street car.

If i did it again, I probably would have skipped the paint and just wrapped the entire car. Probably would not have cost too much more and given the car a level of protection.
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      06-18-2012, 11:33 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes View Post
I have an ER kit. I painted the front end white to match the car. You can look at their race car to get an idea of what exposed CF will look like. I personally think it looks ugly on a street car.

If i did it again, I probably would have skipped the paint and just wrapped the entire car. Probably would not have cost too much more and given the car a level of protection.
wrapping is what I'm thinking, since I'm coming out of pocket for all the repairs it will need to wait a bit to recover from the initial $$$ hit. ugly or not, I'm not too concerned, just want to get it up an running.

Car's in my possession already, but now I'm waiting on the ER kit. No idea if it shipped, talked to them last week and it was supposed to ship Thurs or Friday so I'm waiting for their business hours to get an update.
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      06-18-2012, 11:53 AM   #126
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If you did the wrap you'd save a ton of coin over a paint job. Using good quality vinyl is going to provided a great finish that will last for years. I'm debating paint or wrapping my car as well currently, I'm heavily leaning towards a color change wrap.
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      06-18-2012, 12:08 PM   #127
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OP, wrapping over painting will save you some $$$, but keep in mind that if you get some nicks and tears in the vinyl, you will have to tore off the whole thing and redo it as patching wont look good.
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      06-18-2012, 01:35 PM   #128
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wrapping is what I'm thinking, since I'm coming out of pocket for all the repairs it will need to wait a bit to recover from the initial $$$ hit. ugly or not, I'm not too concerned, just want to get it up an running.

Car's in my possession already, but now I'm waiting on the ER kit. No idea if it shipped, talked to them last week and it was supposed to ship Thurs or Friday so I'm waiting for their business hours to get an update.
can't believe you're still waiting on those pieces. I would have gone ballistic but what other choice do we have. tough spot to be in. feeling your pain brother
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      06-18-2012, 02:30 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSTuning View Post
If you did the wrap you'd save a ton of coin over a paint job. Using good quality vinyl is going to provided a great finish that will last for years. I'm debating paint or wrapping my car as well currently, I'm heavily leaning towards a color change wrap.
Do it! I'm leaning towards a matte lambo gun metal look, kinda like it. But will most likely just end up color matching it.

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OP, wrapping over painting will save you some $$$, but keep in mind that if you get some nicks and tears in the vinyl, you will have to tore off the whole thing and redo it as patching wont look good.
That's a good point to consider, thankfully I have some time.

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can't believe you're still waiting on those pieces. I would have gone ballistic but what other choice do we have. tough spot to be in. feeling your pain brother
Just confirmed, it shipped on Friday, thankfully I've had a car to drive around for a while, otherwise I would've had to cancel already. Hood / Headlamp should be on the way and be here right around the same time.

NO FRAME DAMAGE FTW!
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      07-04-2012, 08:16 PM   #130
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Some progress pictures, still need to replace the headlamp and support bracket, some under body panels, M3 fender liners, paint the hood, then do a whole body vinyl wrap.. but so far it's coming out pretty nice.. doing all the installation myself.

Crashed Hood



With New Hood

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      07-05-2012, 05:21 AM   #131
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Very nice yandy! Any idea of what color wrap you're going to do?
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      07-05-2012, 09:03 AM   #132
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Wow talk about changing the look of the front end. What wheels / wheel specs are you thinking about now?

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Do it! I'm leaning towards a matte lambo gun metal look, kinda like it.

NO FRAME DAMAGE FTW!
My turn..... doooo it!!!

also on the no frame!
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