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      06-16-2012, 07:52 PM   #1
1speedbike
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Where do you buy your methanol? (and a couple other questions)

Hey guys!

I'm very excited to install my new meth kit (courtesy of BMS) when I get back from a short vacation, but as I think ahead to what having a kit entails, I'm thinking up a few questions for the more experienced meth heads...

First off... Where do you buy your methanol? I know some race tracks and shops (maybe even some gas stations?) sell it, but I know of none near me in the north jersey area. I know you can buy boost juice (49% meth) online, but at about 40-45 bucks shipped for 4 gallons, that's not terrible but not exactly reasonable either. Is it cheaper to just mix your own?

Otherwise, I am familiar with ordering lab grade chemicals due to my studies and work, but ordering methanol and distilled water by the bus load from the suppliers isn't that cheap either. Any good local sources or wholesale type places I can get either premixed or separate methanol and DI water? I guess I should probably use distilled or deionized water, so I guess a distiller is good for the long run (which actually brings me to my next question...)


How much meth is usually used over the course of a week/month/year? I only have a 1 gallon tank, so how often should I expect to fill up? I know the meth only flows when necessary, so it depends on the driving style, but I still don't have a good grasp on how fast a gallon goes. I generally dont floor it too often, just getting on the highway when traffic permits. For example if I buy a distiller for a few hundred bucks, is it worth it over the cost of buying water? I guess it's more worth it if the meth goes fast.


Finally.. When you run map 3 on the JB4 for the meth, is the software assuming you have downpipes as well? I bought some, but I haven't installed them yet and I'm probably going to get around to installing the downpipes after the meth kit. I know the merh kicks in when the turbos work harder, but the boost limit is increased by the software when you run downpipes as well. I just don't want it to assume its okay getting up higher is okay before the meth kicking in... Also, any idea if you can set it so meth kicks in at a lower boost level, just for that extra cooling and peace of mind? I don't think there would be any downside to this..


Thank you for looking!!
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      06-16-2012, 08:47 PM   #2
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I typically buy Boost Juice and then mix it 50/50 with Denatured alky. Denatured alky is basically 100% meth so this give me about a 75/25 mix and the car really likes it. This also give me a better bang for the buck.

45 Boost Juice
30 Denatured Alky


75 for 8 gallons of 75% meth
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      06-16-2012, 09:17 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trickcruiser View Post
I typically buy Boost Juice and then mix it 50/50 with Denatured alky. Denatured alky is basically 100% meth so this give me about a 75/25 mix and the car really likes it. This also give me a better bang for the buck.

45 Boost Juice
30 Denatured Alky


75 for 8 gallons of 75% meth
That sounds pretty decent, but I'm not sure I'm ready for 75% meth quite yet

Where do you get the denatured alcohol from? Any idea on the purity? That's a good price for 4 gallons of methanol. Better than buying lots of overpriced DI water.

Also, if you happen to know, how often do you have to fill 'er up?
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      06-16-2012, 09:32 PM   #4
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You can buy cans of Denatured at Lowes, Home Depot, or other hardware stores. Refills, it really depends on how heavy your foot is!

Just recently I found a local speed shop that sells 100% VP meth. I am excited to try this ASAP!
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      06-18-2012, 04:29 PM   #5
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I buy a gallon of -20 degree cold weather WW fluid, and 4 bottles of HEET, all from wal-mart, and mix it in a 2 gallon gas can I have in my trunk. Almost exactly 60/40. Viola.
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      06-18-2012, 05:21 PM   #6
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Denatured alcohol is actually 100% ethanol, so it is slightly different for our purposes. It works well either way, but the chemical structure is different.
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      06-18-2012, 06:54 PM   #7
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Denatured alcohol is not 100% ethanol. If it was, one could drink it. It has enough methanol added to make it poisonous. I just checked the label.
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      06-18-2012, 07:00 PM   #8
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Quote:
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Denatured alcohol is not 100% ethanol. If it was, one could drink it. It has enough methanol added to make it poisonous. I just checked the label.
we gotta settle this asap, someone drink it and report back with your findings
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      06-18-2012, 08:43 PM   #9
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True, denatured alcohol is ETHANOL, I'm an idiot for not realizing. Doh! Ethanol is less combustible and has a higher boiling point than water, but I'm not sure about the effects this would have when injecting it into the intake tract.

Also, even if it was "100%" ethanol, it wouldn't be. Ethanol forms an azeotrope with water and can't be distilled to 100% purity, ever. But that's honestly splitting hairs.


But back on topic... Don't wanna use ethanol, though im sure the effects would be similar. Lab methanol is expensive. Boost juice is sort of expensive. Does the antifreeze have other additives in it? Or is it really just methanol and water? I just don't wanna have any other random ingredients making their way into my engine!

Distilled water is expensive. Bottled water has minerals in it. Water distillers are expensive. Don't wanna steal gallons of DI water from the labs I have access to. What to do... (ps it would really help to know how often I should expect to have to refill! Hint hint)
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      06-19-2012, 12:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1speedbike View Post
True, denatured alcohol is ETHANOL, I'm an idiot for not realizing. Doh! Ethanol is less combustible and has a higher boiling point than water, but I'm not sure about the effects this would have when injecting it into the intake tract.

Also, even if it was "100%" ethanol, it wouldn't be. Ethanol forms an azeotrope with water and can't be distilled to 100% purity, ever. But that's honestly splitting hairs.


But back on topic... Don't wanna use ethanol, though im sure the effects would be similar. Lab methanol is expensive. Boost juice is sort of expensive. Does the antifreeze have other additives in it? Or is it really just methanol and water? I just don't wanna have any other random ingredients making their way into my engine!

Distilled water is expensive. Bottled water has minerals in it. Water distillers are expensive. Don't wanna steal gallons of DI water from the labs I have access to. What to do... (ps it would really help to know how often I should expect to have to refill! Hint hint)
I've read on here that a gallon of meth will last about 4-5 minutes of WOT. I can't say for sure though, might be a question for Terry. I just got my kit on a couple weeks ago and haven't burned up enough to really figure out how fast it gets used up.
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      06-19-2012, 12:42 PM   #11
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Dude, seriouly, theres no reason to not want to use ethanol, e.g., denatured alcohol from home depot. Distilled water is not expensive, its like 79 cents/gallon at the grocery store. You're over analyzing...
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      06-19-2012, 01:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auburn 6 View Post
I've read on here that a gallon of meth will last about 4-5 minutes of WOT. I can't say for sure though, might be a question for Terry. I just got my kit on a couple weeks ago and haven't burned up enough to really figure out how fast it gets used up.
Thank you! That's exactly what I was looking for. Assuming no more than 10 seconds WOT under most circumstances, I have a good idea of how long a gallon will last now. Thanks for your insight!
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      06-19-2012, 01:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indo Rider View Post
Dude, seriouly, theres no reason to not want to use ethanol, e.g., denatured alcohol from home depot. Distilled water is not expensive, its like 79 cents/gallon at the grocery store. You're over analyzing...
Methanol is more volatile than ethanol. By an order of magnitude. This means it will much more readily evaporate and draw off heat than ethanol. I know they both work to cool off the engine, but methanol is more efficient and more combustible, so no water droplets will be entering your engine. I would much rather find a good methanol source.

Also, the water you buy at the grocery store is NOT distilled. Humans should NEVER drink actual distilled or deionized water long term. Tap, bottled, and natural water have many trace elements and minerals which are necessary for proper body function and growth. This is why all the water you drink has these minerals, even if it's "purified" they add the good stuff back in. (ps - otherwise the water will actually taste pretty nasty to you as well). It's exactly these trace elements that I don't want in my engine, and exactly why I already said I don't want to use bottled water, etc that is meant for human consumption.

Please get a clue before you bash my thread. Maybe I'm nit picking a bit, but I want to be as good to my engine as I can be. If you'd rather be more haphazard with your car, that's fine. If you don't agree with my philosophy, then that's fine
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      06-19-2012, 02:59 PM   #14
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Andre. I've bought "Distilled Water" at CVS.

That guy was a bit rude about it, but if he was referencing that then I understand his point.
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      06-19-2012, 03:27 PM   #15
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Andre. I've bought "Distilled Water" at CVS.

That guy was a bit rude about it, but if he was referencing that then I understand his point.
I've never seen "real" distilled water at grocery stores where I shop, but it makes more sense at cvs. I've looked for it, but it's always "purified" and I've even seen some marketed as "distilled" and in small letters at the bottom it says "minerals added" or something like that. I'll look out for it. Id imagine it would have to say something about not being intended for consumption on it. Thanks Matt!

Edit - Been looking it up more as I'm waiting for my flight.. Places like sans club and Walmart sell the real distilled water, but anywhere between $7-12 per gallon jug. NOT the $1/gallon regular drinking water that's sometimes sold as "distilled". I got 4 gallons of boost juice for $35 shipped, so that still seems to be the most cost effective method, and if I want more meth, I can buy it separately and mix (I guess anti freeze, or any possible other sources ??).

Thank you to everyone!
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      06-19-2012, 05:03 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1speedbike View Post
I've never seen "real" distilled water at grocery stores where I shop, but it makes more sense at cvs. I've looked for it, but it's always "purified" and I've even seen some marketed as "distilled" and in small letters at the bottom it says "minerals added" or something like that. I'll look out for it. Id imagine it would have to say something about not being intended for consumption on it. Thanks Matt!

Edit - Been looking it up more as I'm waiting for my flight.. Places like sans club and Walmart sell the real distilled water, but anywhere between $7-12 per gallon jug. NOT the $1/gallon regular drinking water that's sometimes sold as "distilled". I got 4 gallons of boost juice for $35 shipped, so that still seems to be the most cost effective method, and if I want more meth, I can buy it separately and mix (I guess anti freeze, or any possible other sources ??).

Thank you to everyone!
My local Target and Walmart have real, actual distilled water for $0.89/gal. The most cost effective method is buying a $1.79 bottle of -20F washer fluid with 30% meth and adding 2 bottles of yellow 100% meth HEET at a cost of $1.19 each. This gives you just over 1.25 gallons of ~48% meth for the cost of $4.17/1.28 gal or $3.26/gal.
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      06-19-2012, 05:46 PM   #17
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It takes fewer moles of oxygen to burn a mole of methanol. Considering this, when O2 is the limiting factor, you will be able to burn more products and thus make more cylinder pressure. In this regard, methanol will make more power than ethanol.

Further, on a per mole basis, methanol produces less heat than ethanol. In this aspect, it burns cooler. Interestingly, many people who have logged their IAT's with water-methanol or ethanol injection have shown lower IAT's with ethanol. Why is this?

Methanol has a lower molar mass than ethanol. When we mix either substance with water, this is why we should be mixing by weight and not volume. Keeping this in mind, when the amount of water is our limiting factor, we will be able to use more moles of methanol. So while methanol may actually burn cooler on a per mole basis, we are now burning more moles than we would be doing with ethanol. This creates higher cylinder pressures, equating to more power.

This discussion is more relevant if we are burning either straight methanol or ethanol. In such a case, the amount of air will be a limiting factor and affect our power. Since we are using a 50/50 mixture, and only as an additive and not a standalone fuel source, the discrepancies between the two will be very slight. Even so, with water as our limiting agent, methanol will produce more power than ethanol (in this case the difference will be small).

I did mistakenly say that denatured alchohol was "100%" ethanol. It is ethanol, but like 1speedbike said, it is unreasonable to say that it is 100%. I meant this more as a means of saying that the primary constituent is ethanol, but I certainly could have worded this better.
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      06-19-2012, 07:19 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1speedbike View Post
Methanol is more volatile than ethanol. By an order of magnitude. This means it will much more readily evaporate and draw off heat than ethanol. I know they both work to cool off the engine, but methanol is more efficient and more combustible, so no water droplets will be entering your engine. I would much rather find a good methanol source.

Also, the water you buy at the grocery store is NOT distilled. Humans should NEVER drink actual distilled or deionized water long term. Tap, bottled, and natural water have many trace elements and minerals which are necessary for proper body function and growth. This is why all the water you drink has these minerals, even if it's "purified" they add the good stuff back in. (ps - otherwise the water will actually taste pretty nasty to you as well). It's exactly these trace elements that I don't want in my engine, and exactly why I already said I don't want to use bottled water, etc that is meant for human consumption.

Please get a clue before you bash my thread. Maybe I'm nit picking a bit, but I want to be as good to my engine as I can be. If you'd rather be more haphazard with your car, that's fine. If you don't agree with my philosophy, then that's fine
Sorry you took the shortness of my post the wrong way, I was on my phone. I have a clue, and I think if you would have searched more on the forum about such topics you would have found detailed answers to your questions, but I was trying to give you the cut and dry summary.

Order of magnitude more volatile? Do you know what an order of magnitude is?
Meth vapor pressure @ 20C is 13 kPa
Ethanol vapor pressure 20C is 6 kPa

FYI - I don't drink distilled or deionized water, lol, but at my grocery store they actually do stock many different types of water by the gallon jug, including steam distilled water, which is what I care to use for my mix, and it's super cheap. I think a few vets around here can speak to the minimal performance difference between straight methanol and straight ethanol, but like another member already said, if you have a significant fraction of water it's even more of a moot point. If you want to use lab grade 5 nines methanol or VP M1 be my guest, but you'd be going through more trouble than it's worth, in my opinion. You are certainly welcome to your own opinion.

You have to admit though, you mentioned distilling your own water, and that is laughable. Lighten up!

We ?
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      06-20-2012, 03:54 AM   #19
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I bought a 5 gallon thing of 100% methyl achohol ($40 bucks) and mix it with distilled water ($1.50).
Can adjust by weight how much i want as a mix but so far doing 50/50 mix cause my area is very dry.
If i did the math i think i get around 8 or 9 gallons of 50/50 mix for around $50 total.

I had to find a racing store that sold the stuff by searching google and calling numbers. I would just call around , and if that person doesnt have it, im sure they can point you in the right direction.

ive only used around 2 gallons of methyl so far since buying the 5 gallon thing back in Nov of last year. lol
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      06-20-2012, 05:09 PM   #20
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Look around for local muscle car oriented shops to find Meth local. I buy it from a local shop that specializes in F-Bodies and other GM cars. I haven't found another place locally that has 5 gallon jugs in stock, but I have heard that some of the offroad truck shops have it as well.
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      06-21-2012, 07:21 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnosker View Post
The most cost effective method is buying a $1.79 bottle of -20F washer fluid with 30% meth and adding 2 bottles of yellow 100% meth HEET at a cost of $1.19 each. This gives you just over 1.25 gallons of ~48% meth for the cost of $4.17/1.28 gal or $3.26/gal.


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      08-06-2012, 09:56 PM   #22
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I just picked up 4 gallons from ERC here in San Lorenzo I believe. Its only 3 or 4 bucks a gallon.
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