Need help with KW Clubsports and M3 suspension conversion

[sharkatron]

Hi guys,

Just wanted some help with regards to whether I need all the options from here:
http://hpashop.com/BMW-E8X-E9X-to-M3...conversion.htm

if I am using KW Clubsports. I don't think I'll bother too much with the rear toe arms (last option), but I'm not sure about the rear lower camber link kits.

Here:
http://hpashop.com/BMW-OEM-M3-Rear-L...ink-e9x-m3.htm

HPA talks about "Height adjuster, coil-over style spring with spring thrust sheets will be used. although not required, but highly recommended."

And then a little further down: "If you are on KW(May be an option at a later date), Bilstein, Tein, etc. It is our recommendation to convert to either Koni or AST at this time."

How will this work with my KW CS? Do I need to change to a Bilstein or Tein CO?

I was actually looking at this thread:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177028

I got to page 6 before it started getting a little too complex for me. Is someone able to summarise it in noob terms for me and let me know if there is anything that needs attention to if I'm to get my KW CS working with the complete M3 suspension conversion?

Thanks in advance!

[Clovef]

If you get the rear camber links you will need a different rear shock. You would need a set of coilovers from a m1/3 not a 135i.

If I was doing it I would do front control arms, wishbones and anti roll bar as well as rear subframe bushings and that's it for m3 bits. That is the best $ to improvement from what I have read.

[GaryS]

IMO the M3 rear control arms are very underrated on this forum. I had all the other M3 parts, and the rear of my car was still bouncy and wiggling around until I added M3 control arms and Rogue toe arms.

[sharkatron]

Thanks guys for your replies:

Originally Posted by Clovef

If you get the rear camber links you will need a different rear shock. You would need a set of coilovers from a m1/3 not a 135i.

If I was doing it I would do front control arms, wishbones and anti roll bar as well as rear subframe bushings and that's it for m3 bits. That is the best $ to improvement from what I have read.

So if that is the case, are you saying I need to get the KW CS coilovers for the rears for a 1M to fit my 135i? And if I do, do they even sell them separately? I guess that would mean that my investment in the KW CS for the 135i is only half used - for the fronts only, that is, if I decide to go ahead with this conversion to M3 suspension.

Originally Posted by GaryS

IMO the M3 rear control arms are very underrated on this forum. I had all the other M3 parts, and the rear of my car was still bouncy and wiggling around until I added M3 control arms and Rogue toe arms.

So GaryS, what rear shocks did you end up using with your rear control arms? Are they different to your front shocks? And I guess while we're on this topic, is there any detrimental effect to ride, if your front shocks are different to your rears? I know it's important to match the right springs to dampers, but what about front to rear?

And one more question GaryS, with regards to curing the bounciness and wiggling with the control arms, how did you know it was that, and not the toe arms fixing the problem?

Thanks guys!

[GaryS]

sharkatron (I love typing that), I don't know how much either M3 control arm or the Rogue toe arm did separately since I got them installed at the same time.

I also can't answer your main question, about how important the rear camber link is, because I don't have that piece (I have regular 135i size Koni shocks). I do remember someone once asked Harold Lin to prioritize the various rear arms and he answered, "Guide rods, toe arms, lower camber link and upper arms".

Putting it in perspective, the M3 rear subframe bushings fixed some pretty huge deflections, like a 1.5" bounce over bumps. The M3 rear arms plus Rogue toe arm fixed some smaller deflections, maybe 0.25-0.5". Now it feels right to me, so I don't feel like there's still something that needs to be fixed. There might be another 0.25" deflection left somewhere for the camber link to fix, but nothing more than that.

[sharkatron]

Originally Posted by GaryS

sharkatron (I love typing that), I don't know how much either M3 control arm or the Rogue toe arm did separately since I got them installed at the same time.

I also can't answer your main question, about how important the rear camber link is, because I don't have that piece (I have regular 135i size Koni shocks). I do remember someone once asked Harold Lin to prioritize the various rear arms and he answered, "Guide rods, toe arms, lower camber link and upper arms".

Putting it in perspective, the M3 rear subframe bushings fixed some pretty huge deflections, like a 1.5" bounce over bumps. The M3 rear arms plus Rogue toe arm fixed some smaller deflections, maybe 0.25-0.5". Now it feels right to me, so I don't feel like there's still something that needs to be fixed. There might be another 0.25" deflection left somewhere for the camber link to fix, but nothing more than that.

couldn't think of a nick so pulled one from my younger years!

There's no two ways about it, but yes, M3 rear subframe bushings is definitely going to happen. Out of all the M3 suspension components, I know this is definitely the one to get. But I don't really hear much about the other stuff - even with sway bars - there is controversy as to whether it accentuates the understeer property of our cars, or actually improves it, but only at the limit. I'm as yet undecided about the sway bars.

So Harold actually places lower camber links above upper arms? Hmm... If only there was a thread that explains what all the components do, that would be gold. Of course they all reduce deflections, but how? Or maybe I'm not using enough?

But thanks for your reply - I'm just looking for an answer now to if I did do the camber links, whether I need to swap out my rear KW clubsport coilovers for some 1M/M3 ones...

[INDPNDT]

Originally Posted by sharkatron

couldn't think of a nick so pulled one from my younger years!

There's no two ways about it, but yes, M3 rear subframe bushings is definitely going to happen. Out of all the M3 suspension components, I know this is definitely the one to get. But I don't really hear much about the other stuff - even with sway bars - there is controversy as to whether it accentuates the understeer property of our cars, or actually improves it, but only at the limit. I'm as yet undecided about the sway bars.

So Harold actually places lower camber links above upper arms? Hmm... If only there was a thread that explains what all the components do, that would be gold. Of course they all reduce deflections, but how? Or maybe I'm not using enough?

But thanks for your reply - I'm just looking for an answer now to if I did do the camber links, whether I need to swap out my rear KW clubsport coilovers for some 1M/M3 ones...

I know for sure the rear camber links on the 1/M3 are different than the 135 and require different shock design for the rears. I dont know the technical name for the difference but basically the 135 rear shock bottom doesn't have a bolt pass through, and the 1/M3 does.

Hope that helps.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by sharkatron

I'm just looking for an answer now to if I did do the camber links, whether I need to swap out my rear KW clubsport coilovers for some 1M/M3 ones...

I'd like to know if that would work. If it would, I don't understand why HPA Shop says "If you are on KW(May be an option at a later date), Bilstein, Tein, etc. It is our recommendation to convert to either Koni or AST at this time."

[sharkatron]

Originally Posted by INDPNDT

I know for sure the rear camber links on the 1/M3 are different than the 135 and require different shock design for the rears. I dont know the technical name for the difference but basically the 135 rear shock bottom doesn't have a bolt pass through, and the 1/M3 does.

Hope that helps.

Originally Posted by GaryS

I'd like to know if that would work. If it would, I don't understand why HPA Shop says "If you are on KW(May be an option at a later date), Bilstein, Tein, etc. It is our recommendation to convert to either Koni or AST at this time."

Thanks for the replies guys. And herein lies my problem. As you've mentioned INDPNDT, the design of the rear shocks is different between the 135i and the 1M/M3. Are they able to modify it? But as the website does say, a replacement of the rear shock seems to be in order. And then, I guess this leads to another problem - the rears will be either Koni or AST shocks, but the fronts will be my original KW clubsports! I highly doubt different front and rear shocks will be compatible with each other. So that means I need to replace the front shocks to either Koni/AST to match the rears, right? Which means I've just blown 3k on KW CS coilovers if I want to have to M3 suspension conversion? Hmm... Maybe the full conversion is not such a great idea... The rear camber link arms may need to be left out. Unless Harold can chime in?

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by sharkatron

Unless Harold can chime in?

Why don't you PM or email him? Then post the answer here, please.

[Clovef]

I would think different shocks front to rear would be okay as they are adjustable anyways. I also would just leave the m3 camber links off. It just would not be worth it to me. Just save yourself the money and trouble and stick with the clubsports and 135 camber links. That will still be a great set up.

[HP Autowerks]

Originally Posted by sharkatron

Hi guys,

Just wanted some help with regards to whether I need all the options from here:
http://hpashop.com/BMW-E8X-E9X-to-M3...conversion.htm

if I am using KW Clubsports. I don't think I'll bother too much with the rear toe arms (last option), but I'm not sure about the rear lower camber link kits.

Here:
http://hpashop.com/BMW-OEM-M3-Rear-L...ink-e9x-m3.htm

HPA talks about "Height adjuster, coil-over style spring with spring thrust sheets will be used. although not required, but highly recommended."

And then a little further down: "If you are on KW(May be an option at a later date), Bilstein, Tein, etc. It is our recommendation to convert to either Koni or AST at this time."

How will this work with my KW CS? Do I need to change to a Bilstein or Tein CO?

I was actually looking at this thread:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177028

I got to page 6 before it started getting a little too complex for me. Is someone able to summarise it in noob terms for me and let me know if there is anything that needs attention to if I'm to get my KW CS working with the complete M3 suspension conversion?

Thanks in advance!

Contact KW and ask for Chris Marion.

If I recall, they actually made a kit specifically for the M3 rear camber link conversion kit.

[sharkatron]

Thanks Harold - will look into it.

[HP Autowerks]

Originally Posted by sharkatron

Thanks Harold - will look into it.

Please tell Chris I sent you since he made this kit at my special request.

[E90335iflyer]

I am due for some suspension upgrades soon and this looks interesting. If I decide to go with the same rear M3 links, is KW my only choice? What else is out there? Is once better than the other and why?

[sharkatron]

Originally Posted by E90335iflyer

I am due for some suspension upgrades soon and this looks interesting. If I decide to go with the same rear M3 links, is KW my only choice? What else is out there? Is once better than the other and why?

Unfortunately I didn't hear back from kw so I can't say for sure re the rear camber link arms. Your best bet may be to look at another coilover system that is compatible with the m3 suspension from the get go.