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      08-23-2012, 11:18 AM   #1
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Track guys - Overheating warped rotors

Hi Guys - so it seems this is a consistent issue with the 1M and bumper design from my conversations with other guys at the track. The design of the bumper comprised cooling to the brakes compared to the 135i.

The local guy that does work for the BMW track guys is converting his 135i into a 1M and will be making custom brake ducts, I'll do it on my car once he's done. I'm hoping this fixes the issue - rotors get expensive!

Any other guys that go to the track having this issue, done brake ducts already?
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      08-23-2012, 11:29 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ender_ View Post
Hi Guys - so it seems this is a consistent issue with the 1M and bumper design from my conversations with other guys at the track. The design of the bumper comprised cooling to the brakes compared to the 135i.

The local guy that does work for the BMW track guys is converting his 135i into a 1M and will be making custom brake ducts, I'll do it on my car once he's done. I'm hoping this fixes the issue - rotors get expensive!

Any other guys that go to the track having this issue, done brake ducts already?
Yes, I've run brake ducts on my 1M. Do a search and you'll find it.

BTW are you sure the rotors are warped and that it's simply brake pad deposits??

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      08-23-2012, 11:33 AM   #3
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No problems here.
2 very high heat events @ Road Atlanta (track that is hard on brakes)
1 very high heat event @ AMP (semi hard on brakes)
1 80 degree day @ Sebring (not very hard on brakes)

Neil has done the leg work on this project so find his thread and call BimmerWorld for the parts.
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      08-23-2012, 11:56 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Parker View Post
No problems here.
2 very high heat events @ Road Atlanta (track that is hard on brakes)
1 very high heat event @ AMP (semi hard on brakes)
1 80 degree day @ Sebring (not very hard on brakes)

Neil has done the leg work on this project so find his thread and call BimmerWorld for the parts.
No issues here with proper cool down
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      08-23-2012, 01:45 PM   #5
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I warped a set of rotors as did two other forum members I know. I had quite a few events in when it happened and I'm pretty sure the others did too. I'll make sure from now on that I cool down at higher speed to keep more airflow and I will likely also implement Neil's ductwork as well.
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      08-23-2012, 02:20 PM   #6
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It was warped rotors, dealer replaced them and I know of two other 1M who track and same issue.

One guy got the 'unlimited' replacement package from BMW and they replace them 3 times a year so far! LOL

I'll search for Neil's post.
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      08-23-2012, 02:40 PM   #7
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with the stock pads you warp the rotors pretty fast. The stock pads are not made for tracking. Put on some proper track pads and the brakes will work properly, and do warping of the discs.
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      08-23-2012, 03:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue55 View Post
I warped a set of rotors as did two other forum members I know. I had quite a few events in when it happened and I'm pretty sure the others did too. I'll make sure from now on that I cool down at higher speed to keep more airflow and I will likely also implement Neil's ductwork as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ender_ View Post
It was warped rotors, dealer replaced them and I know of two other 1M who track and same issue.

One guy got the 'unlimited' replacement package from BMW and they replace them 3 times a year so far! LOL

I'll search for Neil's post.
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Originally Posted by VO 1M View Post
with the stock pads you warp the rotors pretty fast. The stock pads are not made for tracking. Put on some proper track pads and the brakes will work properly, and do warping of the discs.
Sorry, the OEM rotors are extremely resilient and do not warp due to their efficient floating design. Lots of M3s on m3post have done 30-40k miles and >10 track days with a set of discs with no warping. The vibration that you are feeling through the pedal and steering wheel during braking, is due to uneven brake pad deposition on the surface of the brake disc. This happens when the brake pad material overheats. The brake disc itself is not bending out of shape. If you swap your standard brake pads for a 'racier' compound like the OEM sport pads/Pagids RS/PFC etc., their abrasiveness at lower temperatures will eventually scrub off the uneven pad deposits left by the previous pad, and you'll have a smooth brake disc again. The term warp has been used incorrectly by lots of mechanics far too many times.

Last edited by mlhj83; 08-23-2012 at 04:00 PM.
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      08-23-2012, 04:26 PM   #9
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Just so I'm clear mlhj83 you don't believe that the rotors on the 1M will warp and think everyone is wrong including BMW mechanics?

Just to be clear with my situation, the dealer was very aware of brake deposit issue and first checked the rotors for this, it wasn't the issue, they where warped, no question about that.
The reason I think M3's are seeing it as much is due to the cooling they have and I think the 1M design lacks any consideration for cooling of the brakes.
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      08-23-2012, 05:11 PM   #10
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^^^I have the same problem and in speaking to others I get the same answer. Replace the pads with something more track friendly and all will be fine. The dealer will tell you to replace the rotors.

I hear Ferodo DS2500 Clubsport Brake Pads are quite good. May try a set.
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      08-23-2012, 05:29 PM   #11
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The rotors are not warped...it's heavy pad deposits.
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      08-23-2012, 05:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ender_ View Post
Just so I'm clear mlhj83 you don't believe that the rotors on the 1M will warp and think everyone is wrong including BMW mechanics?

Just to be clear with my situation, the dealer was very aware of brake deposit issue and first checked the rotors for this, it wasn't the issue, they where warped, no question about that.
The reason I think M3's are seeing it as much is due to the cooling they have and I think the 1M design lacks any consideration for cooling of the brakes.
I did not say BMW mechanics are wrong, I said a lot of mechanics use the term incorrectly despite having an understanding of the actual problem. It's far easier to use the term warp than to explain it any other way.

It is difficult/impossible to determine whether a brake disc has truly gone out of shape (i.e. warped) when there are spots and layers of uneven brake deposits on the surface of the disc. The brake disc surface has to be free of these deposits or have an even layer of pad material all across the disc, to be able measure runout to determine whether the brake disc is truly warped. Because of this, all the dealership can do is measure runout with a gauge which will invariably show runout on your discs, BUT, whether the runout is caused by a warped disc or the uneven pad deposits cannot be clearly distinguished until the discs are clean. All the dealership can say with certainty is that the disc surface is uneven.

Most - not all - of the time, a warped brake disc isn't truly warped. It is, however, possible for a brake disc, that isn't warped but has uneven pad deposits, to become truly warped if the discs are not cleaned of its uneven deposits in good time. This is because the deposits will cause the underlying metal to heat up more than the surrounding deposit-free metal, this will eventually cause true warping. If you speak to friction engineers from any of the reputable Formula racing brake manufactures, like AP Racing, Performance Friction, Alcon, this is what they will tell you.
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      08-23-2012, 05:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TUNEDM3 View Post
The rotors are not warped...it's heavy pad deposits.
This.
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      08-23-2012, 08:19 PM   #14
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The duct area's are being used in the 1M, one for the oil cooler and one for the secondary water cooler.
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      08-23-2012, 11:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3alabama View Post
Whats with bmw not putting brake ducts into the m3, and now the 1m when these are their 2 most utilized track cars!! The x35i models have the ducts and yet these two do not-baffles my mind.
While dedicated cooling brake ducts work and are on the M3 GT4, it is unnecessary and a waste of money for both BMW and customer to have them fitted as standard. For the majority of buyers, their M3s will never see track time, even some that do, won't be pushing their M3s so hard to need ducts. It is only a very small percentage that regularly track their car and really push it on track. Even then, an appropriate set of track biased pads are usually sufficient for hard track driving, as long as the driver can manage the brakes and session time. The M3/1M brakes improve cooling and compensate for the lack of air channels (found on the 3 series), by having floating and cross drilled discs of a significantly larger diameter.

Obviously, there are some who like/need to push hard on track lap after lap for 20mins or longer, then things like a BBK and dedicated ducts become a necessity.
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      08-24-2012, 07:38 AM   #16
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My rotors got warped recently on a local former F1 race track.
One part of the track includes braking from 250 km/h to about to 60 km/h (90 degree right turn).
I've raced my cars for some years now on local tracks, and never had a problem with warped rotors before.
Race brake pads (Carbotech XP10).
No brake ducts or other form of brake cooling.
I know how to brake (short and firm).

I asked my BMW dealership if I could get the rotors replaced, but was told that BMW AG in Germany (where evidently all warranty claims are sent for further analysis) probably never would agree to replace them.
"Why?"
"Your rotors are blue!!"
"Well, isn't that the point?"

I was told never to drive with MDM on (I did the first track day with the car), never to use race pads (Why not? The OEM pads aren't good enough, and I have used race pads successfully for some years now), always make sure to cool the brakes down after leaving the track ( I always do), and you have tuned your car (Yes, the brakes do need to work a bit more, but the brakes should be able to handle a tad more power without problem).
In my humble opinion, the 1M desperately needs brake cooling.
If anyone develops a set (no CF please - I'm all go no show) of brake ducts I would be interested.

...and no, no BBK for me. The 1M/M3 brakes are sufficient enough.
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Last edited by Hobbe; 08-24-2012 at 07:44 AM.
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      08-24-2012, 08:55 AM   #17
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A braking zone that requires a decrease of 190 kph is extremely hard on any system. With the weight of the 1M, track pads, and stock rotors I'd be surprised if something didn't warp or fail. Brake ducts may not solve your problem at this track. Did you get any fade? Do your rotors have stress cracks?
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      08-24-2012, 10:14 AM   #18
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Parker,

itīs one part of the track.
Violent steering wheel vibrations were actually noticed on the following short straight half a lap after the part above.
On this short straight you'll reach 140-150 kph before turning right at about 60-70 kph.
Laptime 1:50 for "semi fast" amateurs.
No fade or cracks, which per se could be interpreted as thereīs no need for brake cooling, but the rotors are getting really hot.

EDIT: ...and yes, the 1M is a heavy car for itīs size. An old fashioned CSL treatment wouldn't hurt.

Last edited by Hobbe; 08-24-2012 at 10:27 AM.
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      08-24-2012, 01:52 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3alabama View Post
I could buy that except the regular 3 series, my old e60 with 250hp 5 series and many other bimmers have brake ducts built in and those cars have zero chance of seeing a track.

So that is my point, if you put it on all the low horsepower cars but leave them off the 2 highest performance cars I don't see the logic especially when the brakes are a common complaint
You have to realise that it was easy to incorporate air channels in the bumper for the regular BMWs as those areas of the bumper were not being used. In the M cars, all the bumper intakes have been used, leaving no space for brake ducts. Incorporating them would have cost more than it would have done in a regular BMW, thus my previous post about cost. Again, BMW M compensated for the lack of dedicated cooling channels by having floating and crossed drilled discs of a larger dimension, in addition to curved cooling vanes in the discs (compared to straight vanes in the regular BMW disc), all of which serve to increase cooling ability.

Brakes on M cars are NOT a common complaint. It is a common complaint for enthusiasts and automotive journalists, but NOT for the majority of people who have bought these cars. BMW has catered for the enthusiast by making the M performance sport brake pads available for those that require improved braking. They are used on the ring taxis, which obviously carry a full load of passengers. This is what I have currently and they fit my needs fine so far. If you need more, then obviously you will have to spend on cooling ducts, BBK etc.

Last edited by mlhj83; 08-24-2012 at 02:08 PM.
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      08-24-2012, 02:46 PM   #20
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What a perfect timing. I just came back from watkins glen. and after session 3 the last 5 mins, My steering wheel is shaking. session 4 got worst.

My instructor told me I have a warp rotor. but after reading all the posts, maybe it's the brake deposits.

I am using stock pad with stock rotor and super blue brake fluid.

I already made an appointment on Monday for the service.

Let's see what BMW says...

Do they replaced for free or not?
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      08-24-2012, 03:08 PM   #21
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Doubtful. You do have an aftermarket CP and BOV.
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      08-24-2012, 03:22 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toni8284 View Post
What a perfect timing. I just came back from watkins glen. and after session 3 the last 5 mins, My steering wheel is shaking. session 4 got worst.

My instructor told me I have a warp rotor. but after reading all the posts, maybe it's the brake deposits.

I am using stock pad with stock rotor and super blue brake fluid.

I already made an appointment on Monday for the service.

Let's see what BMW says...

Do they replaced for free or not?
I'm 99.9% certain that your discs are not warped, not especially after just one track day. Get yourself some uprated pads to clean the deposits off, or drive normally with the standard pads, which will eventually clean the deposits off, but may take a few hundred miles. If BMW see a disc like this (see below), they are probably not going to replace it. I too had brake judder when I used the standard pads on track for a full day, and it took me nearly a month of normal driving to fully rid the discs of uneven deposits with the standard pads. I have since obtained a set of M Performance Sport Pads and have gone through 3 more track days and 10k miles of driving with no brake judder whatsoever. The pic below was after a track day with the standard pads, you can clearly see the uneven deposits.

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Last edited by mlhj83; 08-24-2012 at 03:27 PM.
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