Track guys - Overheating warped rotors

[Blue55]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

I hear Ferodo DS2500 Clubsport Brake Pads are quite good. May try a set.

I've used them and I think you will be pleased with the performance. With Motul brake fluid I have not experienced any fade.

[toni8284]

I just talked to a sales guy on a shop in Philly.

He told me if it's brake deposits on the rotor, the pedal should feel different, softer.

and if the steering wheel is shaking on braking, he said 100% is warp rotor.

So... who should I listen to?

[mlhj83]

Originally Posted by toni8284

I just talked to a sales guy on a shop in Philly.

He told me if it's brake deposits on the rotor, the pedal should feel different, softer.

and if it's shaking on the brake, he said 100% is warp rotor.

So... who should I listen to?

The sales guy is wrong, an even layer of pad deposit on the disc and a hot brake pad will make the pedal slightly softer (which is normal), but uneven brake deposits make brake judder. Listen to me, I've developed custom brake discs (as a customer) with AP Racing and have had extensive dealings with friction engineers. Mechanics and sales people aren't engineers. Get a set of uprated pads and take it from there. Once the discs have been cleaned, but brake judder persists, only then can anyone definitively say that discs are warped, which is very very unlikely. You would need to get uprated pads anyway to prevent future occurrences of this problem, so why not start with that and see how it goes. It's certainly cheaper than getting a full set of new discs.

Here is a good article from StopTech which I'm sure many would agree is a reputable brake company.
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-su...nd-other-myths

[Mnime]

Originally Posted by toni8284

What a perfect timing. I just came back from watkins glen. and after session 3 the last 5 mins, My steering wheel is shaking. session 4 got worst.

My instructor told me I have a warp rotor. but after reading all the posts, maybe it's the brake deposits.

I am using stock pad with stock rotor and super blue brake fluid.

I already made an appointment on Monday for the service.

Let's see what BMW says...

Do they replaced for free or not?

I had the same issue at my last event. I usually run Carbo XP10's but i was too lazy to switch them out for a one day event so i ran my OEM pads. I got the same steering wheel and brake flutter afterward. I figured it was brake pad build up on the rotors so i didnt worry about. Shortly after the event the computer said time for the brakes to be serviced. I took it in, knowing full well they didnt need anything, and that is exactly what the dealer told me. They said there was no issue and said the computer was set wrong. They reset it and off i went. I had the steering shake and brake flutter for the next couple weeks but it faded with normal driving and has finally gone away. I have multiple track events on the original OEM rotors in texas heat and havent had an issue.

they should replace them free if the computer says its time or if they inspect them and find them below spec.

[///M1]

Originally Posted by mlhj83

The sales guy is wrong, an even layer of pad deposit on the disc and a hot brake pad will make the pedal slightly softer (which is normal), but uneven brake deposits make brake judder. Listen to me, I've developed custom brake discs (as a customer) with AP Racing and have had extensive dealings with friction engineers. Mechanics and sales people aren't engineers. Get a set of uprated pads and take it from there. Once the discs have been cleaned, but brake judder persists, only then can anyone definitively say that discs are warped, which is very very unlikely. You would need to get uprated pads anyway to prevent future occurrences of this problem, so why not start with that and see how it goes. It's certainly cheaper than getting a full set of new discs.

Here is a good article from StopTech which I'm sure many would agree is a reputable brake company.
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-su...nd-other-myths

I am with mlhj83 on this all the way.

There are a lot of 'myths' involving disc warping. Having the privilege to know one of the best brake experts personally Dave Zeckhausen (and having installed a StopTech BBK with him on my E39 M5), here are a few good reads i can offer.

http://www.centricparts.com/files/Ce...ake%20Disc.pdf

OP: try this procedure for getting rid of the pad deposit, you may want to do it a couple of times but allowing a good amount of time for cool off in between:

http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm

And something for the track:

http://www.zeckhausen.com/avoiding_brake_judder.htm

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Ender_

Just so I'm clear mlhj83 you don't believe that the rotors on the 1M will warp and think everyone is wrong including BMW mechanics?

Just to be clear with my situation, the dealer was very aware of brake deposit issue and first checked the rotors for this, it wasn't the issue, they where warped, no question about that.
The reason I think M3's are seeing it as much is due to the cooling they have and I think the 1M design lacks any consideration for cooling of the brakes.

I am in the same corner as Mlhj

Sorry.. I have at least 20 track days on my OEM rotors, with OEM pads.

Originally Posted by Dan Parker

No problems here.

2 very high heat events @ Road Atlanta (track that is hard on brakes)

1 very high heat event @ AMP (semi hard on brakes)

1 80 degree day @ Sebring (not very hard on brakes)


Neil has done the leg work on this project so find his thread and call BimmerWorld for the parts.

" What Dan said " as well..


to the TOP.. as many others have indicated.. more than likely pad deposits..
Even if your brake rotors ARE warped.. I don't think it's because there is any particular issue with the OEM " COMPETITION PKG" brakes and rotors.

I have had no issues after repeatedly braking from 135MPH to 75MPH at High plains Raceway.
I have run my car in 104 degree ambient temps on track.
I have run my car in 34 degree ambient temps on track.
I have run my car at high altitude, low altitude.
I have run my car at 7 tracks locations without issue...
EAGLES CANYON RACEWAY, TEXAS WORLD SPEEDWAY, HEARTLAND PARK, BARBER MOTORSPORTS PARK, MOTORSPORT RANCH, HARRIS HILL and HIGH PLAINS RACEWAY

I have completely burned through TWO sets of stock OEM pads (front..AND rear).. Dealers measured runout on rotors and both sets of rotors are fine. Rear pads were used up as much as the fronts due to lots of time in MDM. Pad set one was replaced under warranty... second set declined as the car only had 8K on it. I have recently upgraded to PFC-01s up front and no issues... heading to Hallet and Mid Ohio next..

Originally Posted by Hobbe

My rotors got warped recently on a local former F1 race track.

One part of the track includes braking from 250 km/h to about to 60 km/h (90 degree right turn).

I ain't touching that Hobbe... that's a pretty unique situation. yep.. sounds like that track is SERIOUSLY hard on brakes.... ain't nothing an OEM system from ANYONE is designed for.. if other completely stock cars you have owned survived without issues... mo power to them..

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by toni8284

I just talked to a sales guy on a shop in Philly.

He told me if it's brake deposits on the rotor, the pedal should feel different, softer.

and if the steering wheel is shaking on braking, he said 100% is warp rotor.

So... who should I listen to?

you should Listen to us. When was the last time your sales guy was on track?
and please don't say that the sales guy works for a shop in philly.. (read: VAC)

[M3 Adjuster]

for any of you that dislike the stock pads... or gotten hooked on your aftermarket pads..
I am looking for front and rear sets. I have PFC 01s for track.. and just need a replacement set I can use for 5-10K until I can go back to the well and get my OE pads them replaced under warranty.

[LuuZ]

Hi Toni, got the same story, stock rotors, stock pads and ATE superblue.
Have moderate vibrations on the wheel since track....
Will go for harder pads (Textar TMD Friction) and will always focus on short and hard braking.
I always respect heating & cooling periods so let's see what will happen with this setup......
Want to hear what they will say to you about that, but IMO if you did not change anything regarding the brake system, the warranty should work.

[MrRoboto]

Silly question but for those that have a shimmy in your steering wheel after a track event did you check to make sure there isn't a chunk of discarded rubber attached to the barrel of one of your wheels? A few pieces will through off the wheel balance. Happened to me.

[toni8284]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

you should Listen to us. When was the last time your sales guy was on track?
and please don't say that the sales guy works for a shop in philly.. (read: VAC)

M3 Adjuster,

you are very good at guessing!!!!

[Dan Parker]

I didn't even think about the problem being the collection of clag in the wheels but there's a good chance this could be the issue for some. Mr. Roboto may be on to something. At the end of long enduros I always have crazy vibrations that make me think something is wrong. A little spray inside the wheel with some wd40 before the event makes less clag stick.
Also, make sure you blow out the holes and vents in the rotors with an air compressor after each track day.

[fastauto]

100% pad deposits. I had this issue too and decided to remove my wheels and do a light sanding on the rotors. It helped but not completely. I am just going to throw my track pads on and I am sure that compound will pick up the slack that I was too lazy to sand off. As far as the rubber chunks on the wheel barrel is concerned, that may be adding to the problem but probably is not causing it. After each event, remove the wheels, remove the rubber chunks and blow out the rotor holes as Dan mentioned. You should be good to go.

[Mnime]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

Silly question but for those that have a shimmy in your steering wheel after a track event did you check to make sure there isn't a chunk of discarded rubber attached to the barrel of one of your wheels? A few pieces will through off the wheel balance. Happened to me.

NOPE...never even occurred to me but that is logical and I would have never thought to check (thanks for the heads up!).

I have track wheels though that get swapped out before/after, so I'm pretty sure it was brake pad build up in my case. But, it eventually cleaned itself off after a couple weeks.

[Mnime]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

EAGLES CANYON RACEWAY, TEXAS WORLD SPEEDWAY, HEARTLAND PARK, BARBER MOTORSPORTS PARK, MOTORSPORT RANCH, HARRIS HILL and HIGH PLAINS RACEWAY heading to Hallet and Mid Ohio next..

Bragger!!!

[Ender_]

Guys I don't know how to tell you this but they did clean the rotors and test everything before ordering new rotors and pads, says that on my first service receipt. I really don't think BMW wants to replace rotors if a cleaning would do it.

It was my fault I was on the track for over an hour with out a cool down, dumb and I learned my lesson, I'm a hard breaker swell.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

EAGLES CANYON RACEWAY, TEXAS WORLD SPEEDWAY, HEARTLAND PARK, BARBER MOTORSPORTS PARK, MOTORSPORT RANCH, HARRIS HILL and HIGH PLAINS RACEWAY heading to Hallet and Mid Ohio next..

Originally Posted by Mnime

Bragger!!!

Lol. Its been a good year!

[Mnime]

Yes it has...see you at Hallet in a couple weeks

[mlhj83]

Originally Posted by Ender_

Guys I don't know how to tell you this but they did clean the rotors and test everything before ordering new rotors and pads, says that on my first service receipt. I really don't think BMW wants to replace rotors if a cleaning would do it.

It was my fault I was on the track for over an hour with out a cool down, dumb and I learned my lesson, I'm a hard breaker swell.

At least it's getting replaced at their own cost. I will still stand by what I've said, as you have to rely on what the dealership has told you. Obviously, they are not intentionally lying to you, but no method of cleaning is as thorough and even(flat) as using a set of track biased brake pads or a brake lathe. No amount of conventional testing will determine whether a brake disc is definitely warped until it is completely free of uneven deposits - much like how you can't tell whether a glass surface is smooth when it's covered with dirt.

While you may think BMW doesn't want to replace discs unnecessarily, you have to also realise that they have to weigh up the cost of time spent trying to diagnose and rectify the problem VS the cost to simply replace. In this case, which sounds like BMW are giving you a new set under warranty, I would also gladly accept a new set regardless to the cause of the problem. However, if you are paying out of pocket, then unfortunately, you have made the costlier choice.

[alik01]

I experienced the same issue through multiple track days. I mostly ignored it and the brake judder disappeared after a while - I now this is deposits from stock pads and the eventual removal from the rotor surface.

What pads do you all recommend for once or twice a month track days with a bit of Sunday driving in between?

[mlhj83]

Originally Posted by alik01

I experienced the same issue through multiple track days. I mostly ignored it and the brake judder disappeared after a while - I now this is deposits from stock pads and the eventual removal from the rotor surface.

What pads do you all recommend for once or twice a month track days with a bit of Sunday driving in between?

BMW M Performance Sport brake pads
Pagid RS19s
Ferodo DS2500

Take your pick. I personally prefer the first 2 and I'm currently using the BMW ones which have been great but very noisy. I prefer to swap pads for track days as good track biased pads are extremely noisy for road use. People on the streets cringe and stare at me with disgust whenever I come to the stop.

[firechicken99]

Originally Posted by mlhj83

BMW M Performance Sport brake pads
Pagid RS19s
Ferodo DS2500

Take your pick. I personally prefer the first 2 and I'm currently using the BMW ones which have been great but very noisy. I prefer to swap pads for track days as good track biased pads are extremely noisy for road use. People on the streets cringe and stare at me with disgust whenever I come to the stop.

Just letting them know you mean business

Have PFC-08's and had a great track day with them last week.