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      01-20-2013, 04:27 AM   #23
OneM
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Quote:What is difference when driving a stock 1M with the 'M' button pressed vs the Evolve tune without the 'M' button pressed?
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For some funny reason, I never seem to get an answer for this question. Whether its ESS, Evolve, or any other tune review, no one answers. Hmm..
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      01-20-2013, 06:15 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneM View Post
Quote:What is difference when driving a stock 1M with the 'M' button pressed vs the Evolve tune without the 'M' button pressed?
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For some funny reason, I never seem to get an answer for this question. Whether its ESS, Evolve, or any other tune review, no one answers. Hmm..
Well, because you are trying compare two things that does different things, so no one would be able to give you an answer.

The M button closes the wastegate and sharpen the throttle map. That function remains the same either with the ESS or Evolve. So, you can't really make a comparison between the M button pressed with stock or M button not pressed with tune. You get the same power regardless M or no M (Ian's dyno noticed a small increase with M button pressed). The response sharpens when M is pressed for both stock and tune.
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      01-20-2013, 10:15 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparoz View Post
Well, because you are trying compare two things that does different things, so no one would be able to give you an answer.

The M button closes the wastegate and sharpen the throttle map. That function remains the same either with the ESS or Evolve. So, you can't really make a comparison between the M button pressed with stock or M button not pressed with tune. You get the same power regardless M or no M (Ian's dyno noticed a small increase with M button pressed). The response sharpens when M is pressed for both stock and tune.
Fair enough. But what I was trying to get at was whether a tuned (Evolve,ESS..) 1M would feel the same when NOT on wide-open-throttle as a stock 1M with the 'M' button pressed.

From what I understand, all the tune does is alter the 'throttle angle' or percentage by say 10-15%. So when you press the accelerator it now opens the throttle more and gives you the feeling that the car is more powerful. But to me that's exactly how the car feels when the 'M' button is pressed.

As for power increase, I'm sure the tuner increases the boost on the turbo to achieve that result. However, one can always buy a 'boost controller' if power increase via that method was the aim.
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      01-20-2013, 05:57 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneM View Post
Fair enough. But what I was trying to get at was whether a tuned (Evolve,ESS..) 1M would feel the same when NOT on wide-open-throttle as a stock 1M with the 'M' button pressed.

From what I understand, all the tune does is alter the 'throttle angle' or percentage by say 10-15%. So when you press the accelerator it now opens the throttle more and gives you the feeling that the car is more powerful. But to me that's exactly how the car feels when the 'M' button is pressed.

As for power increase, I'm sure the tuner increases the boost on the turbo to achieve that result. However, one can always buy a 'boost controller' if power increase via that method was the aim.
You need to read a lot more about tunes. Your understanding of what they do and how they work is way off.

- most tunes do not change the throttle mapping
- tunes do increase boost
- tunes alter timing to prevent timing drops (these timing drops almost always result in pre detonation / knock events) when running more boost
- tunes alter fueling to perfect afr with increased boost

That's just a simple run down. There is much more to it.

No, you cannot just run a boost controller. There are lots of good resources on how tunes work on these forums. I'd recommend doing some reading.
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      01-20-2013, 08:04 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneM View Post
Fair enough. But what I was trying to get at was whether a tuned (Evolve,ESS..) 1M would feel the same when NOT on wide-open-throttle as a stock 1M with the 'M' button pressed.

From what I understand, all the tune does is alter the 'throttle angle' or percentage by say 10-15%. So when you press the accelerator it now opens the throttle more and gives you the feeling that the car is more powerful. But to me that's exactly how the car feels when the 'M' button is pressed.

As for power increase, I'm sure the tuner increases the boost on the turbo to achieve that result. However, one can always buy a 'boost controller' if power increase via that method was the aim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
You need to read a lot more about tunes. Your understanding of what they do and how they work is way off.

- most tunes do not change the throttle mapping
- tunes do increase boost
- tunes alter timing to prevent timing drops when running more boost
- tunes alter fueling to perfect afr with increased boost

That's just a simple run down. There is much more to it.

No, you cannot just run a boost controller. There are lots of good resources on how tunes work on these forums. I'd recommend doing some reading.
+1 on KennyPowers.

OneM, also read more about what the M button do as well. It closes wastegate to keep your turbo spooling. It also increase the throttle map so the slope is steeper where you get an immediate response.

A tune does not change the throttle angle at all, but boost, timing and afr. So, it does a completely different thing. Therefore you can't compare. Think of it this well - M button improve response in expense of comfort (for the passengers), the tune increase power.
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      01-22-2013, 02:18 AM   #28
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Think maybe you guys need to read more and be less naive. Most aftermarket tunes out there are merely a combination of throttle enhancer & boost increase. AFR & Timing changes hardly give any increase in power nowadays.

Last edited by OneM; 01-22-2013 at 02:29 AM.
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      01-22-2013, 03:10 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneM View Post
Think maybe you guys need to read more and be less naive. Most aftermarket tunes out there are merely a combination of throttle enhancer & boost increase. AFR & Timing changes hardly give any increase in power nowadays.
And your point is what? Of course the boost is up... from 14.5 PSI to 17.5 PSI, that's where the power comes from mostly in combination with AFR's and timing. How do you think BMW tuned the 1M to give more power?
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      01-22-2013, 09:13 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian///M View Post
And your point is what? Of course the boost is up... from 14.5 PSI to 17.5 PSI, that's where the power comes from mostly in combination with AFR's and timing. How do you think BMW tuned the 1M to give more power?

My point is.. prior to WOT (wide-open-throttle) the tune just enhances the throttle (similiar to using say Sprint Booster). So I just wanted to know if it felt similiar as when the 'M' button was pressed, that's all.

I wasn't even asking about during WOT, which is when any tune for that matter is applicable. Prior to WOT, it works in close-loop.
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      01-22-2013, 09:42 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneM View Post
Think maybe you guys need to read more and be less naive. Most aftermarket tunes out there are merely a combination of throttle enhancer & boost increase. AFR & Timing changes hardly give any increase in power nowadays.
got any sources for that information? please provide link

and timing adjustments are mostly not for power gains, they are to *back off* timing when running higher boost so detonation events do not occur.

fueling changes are made to make sure that the car does not run too lean which is what would happen if you increased boost (aka air intake) and kept fueling the same. then your ratio between air and fuel would become far too lean and cause serious issues. the proof that this does occur is easily seen in any dyno runs or data logs where you can see the pre tune AFR and post tune AFR. if fueling was not adjusted at all, and only boost was increased then the AFR would be extremely lean and the car would be running under unsafe conditions. it isnt, so obviously fueling is modified.

not to mention the fact that devices like cobb have the ability to data log, and now they have released accesstuner which allows users to see and modify all of the tables that have been changed by the tune.

so there is factual evidence that timing and fueling as well as boost has been adjusted. also proof that unless you ask for it, throttle modulation is NOT modified.
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      01-22-2013, 10:14 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
got any sources for that information? please provide link

and timing adjustments are mostly not for power gains, they are to *back off* timing when running higher boost so detonation events do not occur.

fueling changes are made to make sure that the car does not run too lean which is what would happen if you increased boost (aka air intake) and kept fueling the same. then your ratio between air and fuel would become far too lean and cause serious issues. the proof that this does occur is easily seen in any dyno runs or data logs where you can see the pre tune AFR and post tune AFR. if fueling was not adjusted at all, and only boost was increased then the AFR would be extremely lean and the car would be running under unsafe conditions. it isnt, so obviously fueling is modified.

not to mention the fact that devices like cobb have the ability to data log, and now they have released accesstuner which allows users to see and modify all of the tables that have been changed by the tune.

so there is factual evidence that timing and fueling as well as boost has been adjusted. also proof that unless you ask for it, throttle modulation is NOT modified.
Don't wanna get technical with you but my point or question was all targeted "PRIOR TO WOT".
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      01-22-2013, 10:46 AM   #33
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Here's my situation:

I've been planning on getting a tune for my car and most of the good reviews out there shines towards Evolve.
I've got no doubt the tune works and performs, but I'm more interested in drivability (i.e. during Non-WOT periods). During non-WOT, the ECU uses lambda sensors via close-loop. Only around 3/4 load or during WOT, tuners adjust timing, afr,..etc via open-loop. The other change aftermarket tuners do is enhance the throttle by say 10-15%, which is why the car feels faster during NON-WOT periods. Now this is where I come in with my question of 'does it feel similiar to the M button' when pressed.
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      01-22-2013, 03:11 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneM View Post
My point is.. prior to WOT (wide-open-throttle) the tune just enhances the throttle (similiar to using say Sprint Booster). So I just wanted to know if it felt similiar as when the 'M' button was pressed, that's all.

I wasn't even asking about during WOT, which is when any tune for that matter is applicable. Prior to WOT, it works in close-loop.
No, tune added doesn't feel similar to stock M button. The M button just makes the throttle more sensitive an closes waste gates. The tune makes the car feel more reactive and less laggy and far more torque even at small to moderate throttle openings. The M button still has same effects as before.
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