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      09-21-2012, 05:26 PM   #1
nachob
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I watched the current video and like all other videos, Matt Farah says the car has almost no lag. I heard this before and when I drive the N54 335i I felt some lag. Not bad but it was there. Then I drove N55 and it had slightly quicker throttle response. Car and Driver confirmed this. Now I have an auto F30 328i loaner and while I don't like the car one bit, it has almost instant throttle response. My 1M has always had a slight lag almost like there was a balloon between throttle and whatever makes engine accelerate. There is also the giant surge so I'm wondering now maybe my car has lag and no one else does? There are no fault lights and There are no other 1Ms to compare with. So do you guys have lag too or does your 1M have instant throttle response. I know it's subjective but wanted to know.
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      09-21-2012, 05:30 PM   #2
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There definitely is a tiny lag with my car. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is normal with turbo cars, especially BMW turbo engines.

With the M button on, the lag gets even smaller..at certain RPM's and certain gears its completely gone.
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      09-21-2012, 05:44 PM   #3
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I think I could describe the "lag" in my 1M exactly the way you just described it, it is a tiny but noticeable spot just after your initial touch to the accelerator and after that the surge comes. I mostly had NA cars before and the one I liked (enginewise) was the 2006 330i (Eurospec.) M Sport manual. That car had a more instant throttle response than the 1M but not too different after that initial lag of the 1M. I suppose some well received tunes like Evolve and GIAC are fixing this issue and making the car smoother way down the power band.

If I could change one thing in the 1M at the time of its development I would go for this particular point since I like to use the car in default mode (non M, non Sport mode) which I find it more natural in most of the daily driving. Others who drive their cars only on track or spirited rides may notice this less maybe. I drive mine relatively lazy at least 1/3 of the time. And as a consequence my actual and planned mods are targeting better throttle response and traction rather than more power or better performance numbers. I have now N55 mids and Evolve Race exhaust with stock DPs and I can say it is better. I have hopes from ER charge pipe and maybe an intake too, but I am still considering those.

Another observation: Both the "stock" drone and this petit lag seem to drive us out of a pale, unwanted zone, like get out of here, pass and start driving the car properly! I like to think it that way and take it as part of car's strong personality

Last edited by ozinaldo; 09-21-2012 at 06:11 PM.
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      09-23-2012, 10:46 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
I think I could describe the "lag" in my 1M exactly the way you just described it, it is a tiny but noticeable spot just after your initial touch to the accelerator and after that the surge comes. I mostly had NA cars before and the one I liked (enginewise) was the 2006 330i (Eurospec.) M Sport manual. That car had a more instant throttle response than the 1M but not too different after that initial lag of the 1M. I suppose some well received tunes like Evolve and GIAC are fixing this issue and making the car smoother way down the power band.

If I could change one thing in the 1M at the time of its development I would go for this particular point since I like to use the car in default mode (non M, non Sport mode) which I find it more natural in most of the daily driving. Others who drive their cars only on track or spirited rides may notice this less maybe. I drive mine relatively lazy at least 1/3 of the time. And as a consequence my actual and planned mods are targeting better throttle response and traction rather than more power or better performance numbers. I have now N55 mids and Evolve Race exhaust with stock DPs and I can say it is better. I have hopes from ER charge pipe and maybe an intake too, but I am still considering those.

Another observation: Both the "stock" drone and this petit lag seem to drive us out of a pale, unwanted zone, like get out of here, pass and start driving the car properly! I like to think it that way and take it as part of car's strong personality
I've had my car for 6 weeks and I'm still in the breaking in period. Been driving up to 4500 RPM and the first mods I installed were the ER charge pipe and AFE stage 2 . I can honestly tell you I feel an immediate improvement in throttle response compared to stock. Thinking of adding Evolve tune soon and to install my Mad dad mids and Borla as soon as I ship them here.
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      09-23-2012, 10:51 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chachirims View Post
I've had my car for 6 weeks and I'm still in the breaking in period. Been driving up to 4500 RPM and the first mods I installed were the ER charge pipe and AFE stage 2 . I can honestly tell you I feel an immediate improvement in throttle response compared to stock. Thinking of adding Evolve tune soon and to install my Mad dad mids and Borla as soon as I ship them here.
Oh it is gonna be good your 1M! And it will roar rather than sound. I appreciate the additional feedback about the aFe intake and ER charge pipe. I am almost totally decided about them, just trying to figure out how I can bring them without falling victim to shipping companies and Chilean customs yet again.

Is yours sealed or open intake and which filter? I myself consider sealed intake with dry filter.
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      09-23-2012, 11:04 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
Oh it is gonna be good your 1M! And it will roar rather than sound. I appreciate the additional feedback about the aFe intake and ER charge pipe. I am almost totally decided about them, just trying to figure out how I can bring them without falling victim to shipping companies and Chilean customs yet again.

Is yours sealed or open intake and which filter? I myself consider sealed intake with dry filter.
I actually brought the intake in a suitcase in a flight from Miami and was very lucky at customs . I am thinking of how much I will have to pay in tariffs to bring the mids and exhaust. Peru customs are a PITFA!!!!!!

I ordered the open dry filters, considering the heavy traffic in Lima, I'm not suffering too much from heat soak so that is a plus. I do think the improved shape of the ER pipe flows much better than the plastic OEM cp, therefore improving air flow and reduced lag
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      09-24-2012, 04:50 AM   #7
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Lag is there from no throttle to half or full throttle. Doesn t mind if you use sport setting.

But for me this is far more important.

If you're mid corner and you play with the throttle there is hardly lag with sport on. With other turbo cars i had lag midcorner playing with throttle and that spoils a lot of fun.
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      09-24-2012, 05:49 AM   #8
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Just to include another aspect into the discussion: when flooring the pedal, how many milliseconds does it take for the 1M's N54 engine before the 50Nm overboost kicks in (raising torque from 450Nm to 500Nm). Could that extra oomph/push kicking in contribute to the impression of some sort of small 'lag' ?

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      09-24-2012, 03:30 PM   #9
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There is lag, no question. Just less than in most turbo motors.
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      09-24-2012, 03:40 PM   #10
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You're in denial if you think there isn't any lag. As Advevo stated, simply go for no throttle or steady throttle to full throttle. Hopefully, the tri-turbo eliminates turbo lag once and for all.
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      09-24-2012, 03:45 PM   #11
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OP, theres an obvious reason why the n55 had "less lag".... Single Twin Scroll Turbo!!! This helps to spool the turbo faster than our single scroll turbochargers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
There is lag, no question. Just less than in most turbo motors.
+1.

In all honesty people..... What the heck do you expect!!?!?!?!

You have a car with an engine powered by turbines which make this power how? By using exhaust gas to spool the turbos thousands of times per minute. And how might we ask do they get the exhaust air to create this power?? By you Pressing the Gas pedal!!!!!

Not only does the car have to wait for your lead foot to hit the pedal, it has to tell the computer you pressed the pedal, rev the engine up, go through the 4 cycles of combustion, and upon exhaust, spin the exhaust turbine, which spins the intake turbine, which then starts to pressurize air from the air intake, push that air out around the engine, through the intercooler, up the POS charge pipe, through the intake manifold, through the engine head, and into 6 piping hot cylinders. God forbid the factory setup have .01 seconds of "lag"!!! Think about the physical footage a molecule of air needs to travel to make it from the outside of the engine intake, all the way to the cylinder.

SMH

If you care that much about "lag" then why are you driving a Forced Induction vehicle? Sure there are ways to dramatically reduce this effect, but the only way to completely eliminate it is to remove those bite sized power boosters.

I love my M, but our cars have tiny baby sized turbos. Could you imagine the conversation that would take place if we were driving Subaru's and other cars which actually have a respectably larger (stock or aftermarket) turbocharger in them? I dont understand all the bitching about lag... It's getting old....

and FWIW my 1M is a year old in in 23 days so!!
end rant

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      09-24-2012, 04:49 PM   #12
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OP why don't you try to drive another 1M and compare? Are you in NorCal or SoCal?
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      09-24-2012, 04:55 PM   #13
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OP why don't you try to drive another 1M and compare? Are you in NorCal or SoCal?
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      09-24-2012, 06:48 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
Lag is there from no throttle to half or full throttle. Doesn t mind if you use sport setting.

But for me this is far more important.

If you're mid corner and you play with the throttle there is hardly lag with sport on. With other turbo cars i had lag midcorner playing with throttle and that spoils a lot of fun.
+1. In my limited track experience (especially in the presence of the 1m king ) I have found mid turn there is absolutely no lack of boost. Power on demand all the way through, a benefit especially if you feel like getting snappy advevo style lol
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      09-24-2012, 10:11 PM   #15
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Very little lag not crazy noticeable.
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      09-24-2012, 11:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue55 View Post
OP why don't you try to drive another 1M and compare? Are you in NorCal or SoCal?
Thank you. Yes, I think this is really the best solution. I'm in San Diego. Maybe someone here would do a car swap. No abuse, we just drive each other's car. I can see if mine feels the way as yours and vice versa.

Anyone in San Diego?
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      09-24-2012, 11:45 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firechicken99 View Post

If you care that much about "lag" then why are you driving a Forced Induction vehicle?

I dont understand all the bitching about lag... It's getting old....

Sir you missed the point of the thread. No one is bitching on this thread about lag specifically. My point was this:

Countless reviewers say that the 1M has no lag. They said the same thing about other versions of the N54. But I do feel some lag which made me wonder if maybe there was something wrong with my car.

Since there are no error lights or codes, it's not something I can take to the dealer. If everyone here has the same lag that mine does, then I am happy because then my car is OK. So the point of the thread was not to bitch about it but to ask if my fellow 1Mers had the same experience.

If everyone here said that there was no lag whatsoever, then I would take it in and request that that they check it out. Now, thanks to the input of my brethren, I feel much better about it.

Also, there were several N54 335i owners that had cars with almost no lag. Then when they got them back from service, the car had lag and at first no one believed them. It turns out the dealer had re-flashed their car to quiet the wastegates after complaints, and the flash increased lag. My car had been in for a couple of services so this info plus the Mr. Farah again saying there was almost no lag got me wondering.

Now finally, I truly love this car and the bit of lag that there is is not horrible and the kick in the butt when the boost comes on more than makes more for anything. Still, in the quest for perfection.....if Dinan offered a tune that increased throttle response, even if it made the same power, I would be very interested in that because I do like quick linear throttles.

The OP.
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      09-25-2012, 01:21 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
Thank you. Yes, I think this is really the best solution. I'm in San Diego. Maybe someone here would do a car swap. No abuse, we just drive each other's car. I can see if mine feels the way as yours and vice versa.

Anyone in San Diego?
We can meet up if our schedules work out and you can take mine out for a rip!



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      09-25-2012, 05:04 AM   #19
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Some food for tech heads: see the "Boost-Pressure Control" section at pages 12-13 of this 2007 Engine Management documentation (N54) (51 pages document) (thus a couple of years before the 1M was conceived):
http://www.1addicts.com/goodiesforyou/n54-2.pdf

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Compare with the N55 engine (100 pages document):
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/attac...8&d=1317333814
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Last edited by Artemis; 09-25-2012 at 05:21 AM. Reason: Added N55 info to the N54 info
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      09-25-2012, 10:07 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
Sir you missed the point of the thread. No one is bitching on this thread about lag specifically. My point was this:

Countless reviewers say that the 1M has no lag. They said the same thing about other versions of the N54. But I do feel some lag which made me wonder if maybe there was something wrong with my car.

Since there are no error lights or codes, it's not something I can take to the dealer. If everyone here has the same lag that mine does, then I am happy because then my car is OK. So the point of the thread was not to bitch about it but to ask if my fellow 1Mers had the same experience.

If everyone here said that there was no lag whatsoever, then I would take it in and request that that they check it out. Now, thanks to the input of my brethren, I feel much better about it.

Also, there were several N54 335i owners that had cars with almost no lag. Then when they got them back from service, the car had lag and at first no one believed them. It turns out the dealer had re-flashed their car to quiet the wastegates after complaints, and the flash increased lag. My car had been in for a couple of services so this info plus the Mr. Farah again saying there was almost no lag got me wondering.

Now finally, I truly love this car and the bit of lag that there is is not horrible and the kick in the butt when the boost comes on more than makes more for anything. Still, in the quest for perfection.....if Dinan offered a tune that increased throttle response, even if it made the same power, I would be very interested in that because I do like quick linear throttles.

The OP.
Touche'. I am glad you are feeling better about it! IMHO the turbos on this car are too small and make too much power at lower RPM for there to be any "serious" lag. Which is why I was concerned peoples postings about "lag" were more perceived than they were realistic.

I think the previous 335 issue (which was not a 1M issue) is understandable as the documentation that Artemis posted indicates BMW wanted the wastegates only partially open so that boost can be achieved more readily while increasing fuel economy. I am sure this is what resulted in the rattling which every single person from here to Bangkok complained about! Subsequently (if memory serves me right) BMW changed the tune to have the wastegates more open thus increasing that gap, reducing or eliminating "rattle", and increasing the distance the WG has to travel to close and spool up the turbo, thus potentially increasing "lag".

Too bad the majority didnt take the time to think that dealing with that little bit of noise might be a trade-off for increased performance/less "lag". Is that a fair post/statement's to make? Or am I totally off the reservation here?
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      09-25-2012, 10:29 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firechicken99 View Post
Touche'. I am glad you are feeling better about it! IMHO the turbos on this car are too small and make too much power at lower RPM for there to be any "serious" lag. Which is why I was concerned peoples postings about "lag" were more perceived than they were realistic.

I think the previous 335 issue (which was not a 1M issue) is understandable as the documentation that Artemis posted indicates BMW wanted the wastegates only partially open so that boost can be achieved more readily while increasing fuel economy. I am sure this is what resulted in the rattling which every single person from here to Bangkok complained about! Subsequently (if memory serves me right) BMW changed the tune to have the wastegates more open thus increasing that gap, reducing or eliminating "rattle", and increasing the distance the WG has to travel to close and spool up the turbo, thus potentially increasing "lag".

Too bad the majority didnt take the time to think that dealing with that little bit of noise might be a trade-off for increased performance/less "lag". Is that a fair post/statement's to make? Or am I totally off the reservation here?

That is EXACTLY the predicament we are in... when we get the latest SW update. Everything is a trade off. But I would MUCH rather have rattles WITH no lag and performance then no rattles with fairly decent lag.

I hated BMW's latest SW fix so much it was what pushed me to get a flash tune. Now I am happy.
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      09-25-2012, 11:57 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
That is EXACTLY the predicament we are in... when we get the latest SW update. Everything is a trade off. But I would MUCH rather have rattles WITH no lag and performance then no rattles with fairly decent lag.

I hated BMW's latest SW fix so much it was what pushed me to get a flash tune. Now I am happy.
Firechicken and Artemis, I am with you, I gladly take a little mechanical sound for less lag any day! I think the 335 crowd was looking for something different. Our cars are a bit louder anyway and probably wouldn't hear it!

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