BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-27-2013, 05:13 PM   #1
mclemens
Enlisted Member
mclemens's Avatar
United_States
2
Rep
43
Posts

Drives: 2011 BMW 1M
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

High oil temps

Has anyone implemented a solution that works to control the high oil temps (> 285) seen when a 1M is tracked? I've got the oil cooler from Evolution Racewerks installed and it really hasn't changed the temps I'm seeing.

I've got lots of history data from my AIM data collection system showing the oil, water and external temps but haven't been able to identify a pattern. One thing that's obvious is that quick increases in oil temp start to happen once the water temp is above 210 or so.

I've changed the oil to Motul 8100 5w-40 and am planning to try the following the next time I'm at the track:

1. Red Line water wetter or the Motul equivalent
2. Burger Motorsports low temperature thermostat

Anyone have some additional ideas?

My cars got about 7,000 miles on it with about 4,000 of that on the track.

Thanks for your help.

Here's a link to a Google spreadsheet showing data from 74 track sessions. Contains oil, coolant and outside temps.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...UE&usp=sharing
__________________
2011 1M AW, 2011 A3 TDI, 2013 Mini JCW, 2004 F150
Badger Bimmer driving events coordinator

Last edited by mclemens; 08-28-2013 at 12:28 PM. Reason: Added link to Google spreadsheet showing oil temps
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2013, 05:34 PM   #2
M3 Adjuster
Brigadier General
107
Rep
3,872
Posts

Drives: 1988 M3 gone .. 1M HERE!!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dallas, Tx

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mclemens View Post
Has anyone implemented a solution that works to control the high oil temps (> 285) seen when a 1M is tracked? I've got the oil cooler from Evolution Racewerks installed and it really hasn't changed the temps I'm seeing.

I've got lots of history data from my AIM data collection system showing the oil, water and external temps but haven't been able to identify a pattern. One thing that's obvious is that quick increases in oil temp start to happen once the water temp is above 210 or so.

I've changed the oil to Motul 8100 5w-40 and am planning to try the following the next time I'm at the track:

1. Red Line water wetter or the Motul equivalent
2. Burger Motorsports low temperature thermostat

Anyone have some additional ideas?

My cars got about 7,000 miles on it with about 4,000 of that on the track.

Thanks for your help.
I have about 17K miles with at least 4K of that on track..... Most of those miles on track in a MUCH hotter climate. All is well so far..... still on the original charge pipe as well. BMW M engineers seem rather unconcerned up to about 300 degress... for what that's worth. I will say that I was at an autocross last month and the engine fans for my car and another 1M reached what must be warp factor 10. I had never heard the fans run that hard and they were *extremely* loud and clattered even but the car was still in the same operating temp range. Ambient temps were over 102 degrees on a black asphalt lot. I have tracked the car in 104 degree temps.. ( a lot more air moving across things on track vs autocross) and no limp mode encountered.... Darn thing sure takes a licking....
__________________
Lone Star BMW CCA Chapter president, Chief Driving Instructor


Check out my photos of my West Texas driving tour here.. http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1115740

Last edited by M3 Adjuster; 08-27-2013 at 05:39 PM.
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2013, 05:55 PM   #3
lcrain
Captain
14
Rep
844
Posts

Drives: e36 m3, TT-RS
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (1)

I would like to address this issue as well, glad you posted this. M3adjuster and I attend a lot of the same events in the Texas heat...

One thing that is bound to help is spending as little time as possible at or near the rev limiter. Unlike our S54/S65 brethren, the N54 does not need to be revved to the heavens to achieve peak power. Lately (last track day) I shifted ~6k RPMs and didn't notice temps going about ~245-250 or so.

I am disappointed to hear that the ER Oil-cooler hasn't helped much. I want to add one for peace of mind, and I guess I will go custom with a Setrab core and see if that is any better. One problem I see here is that since my 1M is my DD and my commute is so short (~10 miles a day), will I have a hard time achieving optimal oil temps driving around town?

What other variables could effect the oil temp (and the engine temp)? Upgraded/larger radiator/fan? Intercooler? I am not mechanically savvy enough to know the true root of the problem. I do know that high oil temps are a symptom, but are they the real, underlying issue that we should fear?

My car is stock engine wise and has been reliable thus far, no issues. I would love the added peace of mind if we could determine the proper solution to high oil temps and potential limp mode...

Last edited by lcrain; 08-27-2013 at 06:05 PM.
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2013, 06:39 PM   #4
Ian///M
Major General
Ian///M's Avatar
No_Country
88
Rep
6,262
Posts

Drives: 1M (Sold)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oz

iTrader: (0)

On the track and daily driving the highest my temps have been is 125C/257F. Car is tuned as well.

I use 0W40 and Redline Water Wetter. Make sure that there is no debris blocking your 3 radiators as leaves and plastic bags love to get sucked in the 2 side intakes.
__________________
BMW 1M VO - Cobb + PTF e-Tune, Akrapovic wireless, MadDad mids, ETS 5" FMIC, ER CP, TurboSmart PB DV's, SSK, CDV, OCC, AWRON Gauge, Hankook RS-3's, Vorshlag Camber plates
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2013, 06:49 PM   #5
robertm
Captain
12
Rep
877
Posts

Drives: BSM 1M
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: dfw

iTrader: (0)

All the items you are mentioning should help. The lower temp thermo should be of benefit too. Will take forever to get up to temp on the street with that mod but not a problem on the track. I'm surprised your larger intercooler hasn't helped. I've not been able to get my car past about 270 with the Helix installed.

Another option to get then temps down is what several race teams have done which is change out the radiator. I believe HP Autowerks has done this with excellent results on one of their race cars.
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2013, 07:12 PM   #6
Ian///M
Major General
Ian///M's Avatar
No_Country
88
Rep
6,262
Posts

Drives: 1M (Sold)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oz

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertm View Post
All the items you are mentioning should help. The lower temp thermo should be of benefit too. Will take forever to get up to temp on the street with that mod but not a problem on the track. I'm surprised your larger intercooler hasn't helped. I've not been able to get my car past about 270 with the Helix installed.

Another option to get then temps down is what several race teams have done which is change out the radiator. I believe HP Autowerks has done this with excellent results on one of their race cars.
FMIC has nothing to do with water or oil temps
__________________
BMW 1M VO - Cobb + PTF e-Tune, Akrapovic wireless, MadDad mids, ETS 5" FMIC, ER CP, TurboSmart PB DV's, SSK, CDV, OCC, AWRON Gauge, Hankook RS-3's, Vorshlag Camber plates
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2013, 09:57 PM   #7
ZIPNBYE
Let's save military ranks for those who earn it!
ZIPNBYE's Avatar
Canada
11
Rep
1,129
Posts

Drives: ...on the Ragged Edge
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
I just had my car out on track Friday, and did three 20min stints back to back to back. It was about 26deg Celsius, and my oil temp barely crept past 120deg Celsius.

This is on Mobil-1 0W40.
__________________
Richard
2013 BMW M3 Individual -- Fire Orange
2013 BMW X1 xDrive35i M-Sport -- Valencia Orange
2011 BMW 1-series M Coupe (#205/220) -- Valencia Orange (sold)
2009 BMW 135i M-Sport Coupe -- Space Grey (sold)
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2013, 10:51 PM   #8
bdaddylo
Major
bdaddylo's Avatar
United_States
30
Rep
1,234
Posts

Drives: 2011 E90 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
High engine speed, high ambient temps, high turbo boost/rpm, and low air flow all contribute to high engine temps. Time on a track is meaningless.
__________________
_______________________
2011 E90 M3 ZCP/AW/Ohlins R&T/Vorshlag CP/Stoptech ST-40 Trophy Street
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2013, 11:09 PM   #9
robertm
Captain
12
Rep
877
Posts

Drives: BSM 1M
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: dfw

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian///M View Post
FMIC has nothing to do with water or oil temps
Wrong. It is all interrelated.


As well as allowing a greater mass of air to be admitted to an engine, intercoolers have a key role in controlling the internal temperatures in a turbocharged engine. When fitted with a turbo (as with any form of supercharging), the engine's specific power is increased, leading to higher combustion and exhaust temperatures. The exhaust gases passing through the turbine section of the turbocharger are usually around 450 C (840 F), but can be as high as 1000 C (1830 F) under extreme conditions. This heat passes through the turbocharger unit and contributes to the heating of the air being compressed in the compressor section of the turbo. If left uncooled, this hot air enters the engine, further increasing internal temperatures. This leads to a build-up of heat that will eventually stabilise, but this may be at temperatures in excess of the engine's design limits- 'hot spots' at the piston crown or exhaust valve can cause warping or cracking of these components. High air charge temperatures will also increase the possibility of pre-ignition or detonation. Detonation causes damaging pressure spikes in the engine's cylinders, which can quickly damage an engine. These effects are especially found in modified or tuned engines running at very high specific power outputs. An efficient intercooler removes heat from the air in the induction system, preventing the cyclic heat build-up via the turbocharger, allowing higher power outputs to be achieved without damage.
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2013, 11:31 PM   #10
Ian///M
Major General
Ian///M's Avatar
No_Country
88
Rep
6,262
Posts

Drives: 1M (Sold)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oz

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertm View Post
Wrong. It is all interrelated.


As well as allowing a greater mass of air to be admitted to an engine, intercoolers have a key role in controlling the internal temperatures in a turbocharged engine. When fitted with a turbo (as with any form of supercharging), the engine's specific power is increased, leading to higher combustion and exhaust temperatures. The exhaust gases passing through the turbine section of the turbocharger are usually around 450 C (840 F), but can be as high as 1000 C (1830 F) under extreme conditions. This heat passes through the turbocharger unit and contributes to the heating of the air being compressed in the compressor section of the turbo. If left uncooled, this hot air enters the engine, further increasing internal temperatures. This leads to a build-up of heat that will eventually stabilise, but this may be at temperatures in excess of the engine's design limits- 'hot spots' at the piston crown or exhaust valve can cause warping or cracking of these components. High air charge temperatures will also increase the possibility of pre-ignition or detonation. Detonation causes damaging pressure spikes in the engine's cylinders, which can quickly damage an engine. These effects are especially found in modified or tuned engines running at very high specific power outputs. An efficient intercooler removes heat from the air in the induction system, preventing the cyclic heat build-up via the turbocharger, allowing higher power outputs to be achieved without damage.
Rubbish! Don't believe everything you read on google

Hot IAT's from OE FMIC will actually result in a cooler engine as performance will be decreased as timing is pulled. Vs. cooler IATs from aftermarket FMICs will allow greater performance and thus higher engine temps.

Better off having vents in the hood to dissipate the heat.
__________________
BMW 1M VO - Cobb + PTF e-Tune, Akrapovic wireless, MadDad mids, ETS 5" FMIC, ER CP, TurboSmart PB DV's, SSK, CDV, OCC, AWRON Gauge, Hankook RS-3's, Vorshlag Camber plates

Last edited by Ian///M; 08-27-2013 at 11:37 PM.
Appreciate 0
      08-28-2013, 12:48 AM   #11
Mattgfx
Captain
Mattgfx's Avatar
United_States
16
Rep
610
Posts

Drives: 11 328i xDrive
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

The Burger Motorsports low temperature thermostat is the best mod for the oil temp issue with the N54. My temps take about 2mins longer to warm up and the car never has gone above 235F. I used to see close to 250F when beating on it for awhile but now they stay below 235F and in the optimum range for oil while cruising which is around 210-220F. In the winter months you might want to take it out but its literally a 5min install.
__________________
08 135i | Alpine White |SOLD
11 328i xDrive | Jet Black |
Appreciate 0
      08-28-2013, 03:16 AM   #12
froop
Colonel
froop's Avatar
Australia
46
Rep
2,312
Posts

Drives: 08 AW 6MT E82
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Sydney, Australia

iTrader: (2)

Try to remove the engine cowl and possibly the cabin filter as well when you're racing. It will help a lot of the hot air in the engine bay to escape. When I do this I literally see the air shimmering in front of my windscreen when stopped.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-28-2013, 10:48 AM   #13
MDORPHN
Colonel
60
Rep
2,694
Posts

Drives: AW 1M
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wash, DC

iTrader: (0)

My thoughts:

1) I have the absolute largest Setrab core that can be fit in a 1M.

RRT Racing installed a 40 row, approx. 12"X 13" Setrab cooler with proper ducting/venting that reduced my on-track high temps from 285-290 to approx. 265.

Although I have no experience with it (and run a very nice ER charge pipe), I don't believe that RRT was impressed by the fit of the ER oil cooler.

2) Although there is mounting evidence that it works, I'm not sure I get why a thermostat delete (or lower temp thermostat) would lower road course track temps, where the car is under extraordinarily heavy load and the stock thermostat is fully open.

Yes, it should keep the oil cooler under low load conditions (like on the street). But since it doesn't actually add any thermal capacity to the cooling system, it strike me that it should have no effect on oil temps once it is fully open.

The only thing that makes sense to me -- and that has been suggested to me by a number of knowledgeable folks -- is that the design of the stock thermostat constricts the flow some, even when fully open.

FWIW, I'm considering removing the stock thermostat, but adding an Improved Racing 212 degree thermostat when it becomes available.

Neil

EDIT: Running distilled water with water wetter or Motul mocool (?) will also help some, as water is a more efficient medium for heat transfer than coolant. I'm also planning to experiment with removing the cowl.

Last edited by MDORPHN; 08-28-2013 at 11:56 AM.
Appreciate 0
      08-31-2013, 01:38 PM   #14
p66
Second Lieutenant
6
Rep
269
Posts

Drives: 1M
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dallas, Texas

iTrader: (2)

What does removing the cowel entail? What about removing the weather stripping along the back of the engine compartment closest to the cowel?
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2013, 12:06 AM   #15
Newby
1Mtech
0
Rep
62
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Australia

iTrader: (0)

We have come up with a fairly comprehensive solution regarding cooling, in association with PWR.

1x PWR main radiator
1x rhs Oil cooler
1x lhs oil/coolant cooler


We also use a custom oil diverter. Different air ducts are required as well, which we designed.

Coolant temp in race condition is no higher than 107degrees C.

PM for further details if interested, this is really to suit race application.
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2013, 12:46 AM   #16
Ian///M
Major General
Ian///M's Avatar
No_Country
88
Rep
6,262
Posts

Drives: 1M (Sold)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oz

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newby View Post
We have come up with a fairly comprehensive solution regarding cooling, in association with PWR.

1x PWR main radiator
1x rhs Oil cooler
1x lhs oil/coolant cooler


We also use a custom oil diverter. Different air ducts are required as well, which we designed.

Coolant temp in race condition is no higher than 107degrees C.

PM for further details if interested, this is really to suit race application.
Photos?
__________________
BMW 1M VO - Cobb + PTF e-Tune, Akrapovic wireless, MadDad mids, ETS 5" FMIC, ER CP, TurboSmart PB DV's, SSK, CDV, OCC, AWRON Gauge, Hankook RS-3's, Vorshlag Camber plates
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2013, 07:20 AM   #17
Hogsmith
Enlisted Member
Hogsmith's Avatar
0
Rep
40
Posts

Drives: 2011 AW 1M
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: London, Arronches, Moscow

iTrader: (0)

I would be interested in photos too. Do the parts bolt on or some fabrication is required?
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2013, 06:38 PM   #18
Newby
1Mtech
0
Rep
62
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Australia

iTrader: (0)

Ill grab some quick photos today. The coolers in each wheel arch retain the origional mounting points. However, routing of the lines is changed. The opening in the inner arch liner(to allowe the air flow) is not big enough(the coolers on each side are doubled in size). We grafted in X5M(from memory) inner arch liner vents, not the prettiest but it achieved the desired result within a small time frame.
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2013, 07:12 PM   #19
Newby
1Mtech
0
Rep
62
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Australia

iTrader: (0)

The cooler shown is for the LHS which we trialed early during the development(we now use a split cooler of the same size, top is coolant, bottom is oil) and the RHS is oil only cooler and the same as shown(but obviously to suit RHS). The main radiator is a drop in replacement. We designed this system to retain all the BMW standard connections(additional coolant/oil lines are required to be made however to connect it all). The only real change is a slight tweak at the 1 way valve for the standard additional coolant cooler.

If interested Im sure we could provide a complete kit(coolers, lines, oil thermostat replacement, adaptor fittings) and fitment/instructions on fitment.
Attached Images
       
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2013, 08:19 AM   #20
robertm
Captain
12
Rep
877
Posts

Drives: BSM 1M
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: dfw

iTrader: (0)

Beautiful stuff!

As I mentioned above HP Autowerks also has a radiator package they've been using successfully on their n54 powered track and race cars.
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2013, 09:18 AM   #21
BMW86
Major General
Australia
149
Rep
9,047
Posts

Drives: BMW 135i CLA45 AMG MacanS
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia

iTrader: (0)

What's do you slug for the radiator?

I've got the Advan Stage 2 oil cooler and it works really well.
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2013, 08:55 AM   #22
mclemens
Enlisted Member
mclemens's Avatar
United_States
2
Rep
43
Posts

Drives: 2011 BMW 1M
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

High Oil Temps - Update

I drove at Road America on 9/3 after having made some changes to help control oil temps. I changed to Motul 8100 5w-40 oil, added 500ml of MoCool to the radiator and installed the BMS low temperature thermostat. These changes did contribute to lower oil temps - 275f instead of 285f.

I got another 10f degree reduction by not running RPMs above 6000 or so. Normally I can drive at Road America and only use 3rd and 4th gears with lap times in the 2:38 to 2:40 range. I changed to also use 5th gear and was able to maintain the same lap times and max speeds (155mph) with a couple of laps at 2:37.

I have the ER oil cooler installed but without any shrouding. My next change will be to install shrouding to block the areas where air can escape without flowing through the oil cooler.
__________________
2011 1M AW, 2011 A3 TDI, 2013 Mini JCW, 2004 F150
Badger Bimmer driving events coordinator
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:46 PM.




1addicts
1addicts
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST