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      12-11-2012, 05:20 PM   #1
1BimmerNut
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YOYO MODE

Had a corp track day yesterday and one of the instructors had owned a 135 and had a bit of time driving them quick. Great bloke...We got chatting, he told me NEVER ever completely turn off stability control on street and/or track.....He said the combo of short wheelbase and power makes em a handful if they let go....and binning it would be a shame.
Question - who has had a moment in YOYO and did you catch it - what happens? You feel the rear squirrelling around sometimes...Sounds like the Honda S2000 which has a rep of letting go quick and big
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      12-11-2012, 05:28 PM   #2
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your instructor is right. The car grips and understeers under most circumstances.

But if you hit the throttle a bit too quickly or with a bit too much bravado the rear will come out and it will end in you losing control of the car.

Its touchy and a side effect of not so much short wheel base big power - but also (thanks too turbos) a third factor - short wheel-base, gobs of power, and non-linear throttle in torque response.

The (albeit modest) turbolag throws people who are inexperienced drivers, or just new to the car.




Ohh and when you do spin it, dont be scared, the dash will light up and the engine will cut - the car senses lateral movements and will assume that youre out of control and about to crash into something, so to minimize the risk of fire the fuel pumps are cut. Just drop the car out of gear and restart it, youll be fine.


And remember the old adage - when in a spin, both feet in!
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      12-11-2012, 05:33 PM   #3
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As a novice, and trying to use every millimetre of tread, every centimetre of track width, every second in lap time ... spinning out and loss of control happens commonly ... well I just feel sorry for the competitors behind me who cop the spray and storm of dirt and rocks.

These vehicles require respect; too many catastrophies.
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      12-11-2012, 07:13 PM   #4
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      12-11-2012, 07:13 PM   #5
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When you're at the track you kind of have to take off traction control in my opinion.

I went for the first time to Wakefield and I initially tried it with it only on DTC and it just wasn't that great. It cut in all the time and my lap times were pretty horrible.

Just by turning off the traction control completely helped me put down the power through the turns a lot better and I even drifted a couple turns lol. I felt that the car was very balanced and I could easily feel and judge both under and oversteer.

I have the M3 strut tower brace which I feel helps considerably with the handling and feel of the car so without it, I'm not too sure how it would go.

I have spun the car on a roundabout one time when I had traction control off so I understand what that instructor is talking about but that was really my mistake more than anything. That was also before the M3 strut tower brace was installed.

Basically, I wouldn't go so far as to say never take off traction control, but just if you do, make sure it's somewhere safe and stay in control. If you just stomp on the accelerator pedal in a turn you're going to spin regardless. Be gentle with it and explore the limits on a track gradually.
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      12-11-2012, 07:20 PM   #6
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I did a couple of skid pan days which helped enormously with getting a feel for how the car responds to breaking traction at the rear. I'd really recommend doing one. Great fun too. It gave me a lot more confidence to have it off at the track, but at eastern creek there are still a couple of turns (especially turn 1), where I like to keep it on.
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      12-11-2012, 07:42 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by froop View Post
When you're at the track you kind of have to take off traction control in my opinion.

I went for the first time to Wakefield and I initially tried it with it only on DTC and it just wasn't that great. It cut in all the time and my lap times were pretty horrible.

Just by turning off the traction control completely helped me put down the power through the turns a lot better and I even drifted a couple turns lol. I felt that the car was very balanced and I could easily feel and judge both under and oversteer.

I have the M3 strut tower brace which I feel helps considerably with the handling and feel of the car so without it, I'm not too sure how it would go.

I have spun the car on a roundabout one time when I had traction control off so I understand what that instructor is talking about but that was really my mistake more than anything. That was also before the M3 strut tower brace was installed.

Basically, I wouldn't go so far as to say never take off traction control, but just if you do, make sure it's somewhere safe and stay in control. If you just stomp on the accelerator pedal in a turn you're going to spin regardless. Be gentle with it and explore the limits on a track gradually.
That is the problem with the 135i DTC, as it cuts in too quickly and the adjustments it make can actually cause more problem if you don't understand how it works.

With 135i DTC enable, all you have to do is hold the line and let the DTC to do the work in most cases. If you try to counter steer your grip returns very quickly and you always end up on the other side of the road.

It is good that the 1M MDM mode behalves differently and allows more lateral movements till it kicks in.
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      12-11-2012, 07:45 PM   #8
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Ohh and when you do spin it, dont be scared
Ummm the vehicle is traveling at 30-50m/sec.
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      12-11-2012, 07:55 PM   #9
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traction off is fine with a good set of track tyres and some experience. teaches you to be smooth and concentrate on the lines. just never floor it until your wheel is straight, which is what every driving instructor on earth keeps saying, simple, but hard to do.
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      12-11-2012, 08:14 PM   #10
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Quote:
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traction off is fine with a good set of track tyres and some experience. teaches you to be smooth and concentrate on the lines. just never floor it until your wheel is straight, which is what every driving instructor on earth keeps saying, simple, but hard to do.
Surely then just drive with traction control on? Loss of traction = slower times, but more fun. Depends on what is trying to be achieved.

If you can learn a what point you will loose traction, then the little yellow light should never light up, yet still have your safety net

EDIT: on the 1M, MDM mode is a happy middle ground and very predictable
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      12-11-2012, 08:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparoz View Post
That is the problem with the 135i DTC, as it cuts in too quickly and the adjustments it make can actually cause more problem if you don't understand how it works.

With 135i DTC enable, all you have to do is hold the line and let the DTC to do the work in most cases. If you try to counter steer your grip returns very quickly and you always end up on the other side of the road.

It is good that the 1M MDM mode behalves differently and allows more lateral movements till it kicks in.
Totally agree with this, I've done that in the wet and nearly end up on the wrong side of the road because the natural instinct is to counter steer. You have to adjust your driving style.

In my opinion stability control has to be completely off on the track. I don't often turn it off on the street but am nearly always in DTC mode.
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      12-11-2012, 08:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian///M View Post
Surely then just drive with traction control on? Loss of traction = slower times, but more fun. Depends on what is trying to be achieved.

If you can learn a what point you will loose traction, then the little yellow light should never light up, yet still have your safety net

EDIT: on the 1M, MDM mode is a happy middle ground and very predictable

With good tyres you are absolutely right, but with average tyres and a bit of wheel spin traction will cut in and brake a spinning wheel, even when you are going safely in a straight line, so it will slow you down considerably even when its safe

definately, traction off is more fun

actually traction control can put your car in limp mode at the track cos of this too which is annoying

i spun my old mans m3 out of turn 2 lol, of course it was the worn out tyres fault, not a heavy foot, wrong line, slow reactions or anything, ha ha, he seriously needs to get new tyres.

OT: Are you going to that evening track day this monday, there is a slim chance i could get that arvo night off.
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      12-11-2012, 09:24 PM   #13
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Never race anything you wouldn't push off a cliff.
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      12-11-2012, 09:49 PM   #14
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I have a lot of fun in the wet with traction off. Nail it from a set of lights and watch the speedo tip over 220 while the car is moving at 40.

I've had a few moments but it tends to catch itself when you let go of the throttle.
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      12-11-2012, 10:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo_3101 View Post
Ummm the vehicle is traveling at 30-50m/sec.
If you panic you dont know what to do. There are runoff areas. Countersteer and try to fight it...then put your feet in to protect the driveline.

If you panic you wont do those things...

So yes. Dont panic. And always remember your towel.
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      12-13-2012, 05:45 AM   #16
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There are some "interesting" comments being made here.

All I'll say is there's no way I'd turn traction control off completely at the track. Binning your car would feel even worse knowing that you willingly removed your safety net.

Most people I've spoken to do better times with DTC on than TIMYOYO mode.
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      12-13-2012, 08:06 AM   #17
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geez, imagine the days when traction control/esc/girly mode wasn't around?

scary scary times :P
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      12-13-2012, 12:38 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiuM View Post
geez, imagine the days when traction control/esc/girly mode wasn't around?

scary scary times :P
Cars had less power too.
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      12-13-2012, 04:28 PM   #19
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Protection at 11 tenths

Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiuM View Post
geez, imagine the days when traction control/esc/girly mode wasn't around?

scary scary times :P
Grew up without stability control, raced go karts, reasonably confident I can catch a spin BUT what happens if I am wrong or something unexpected gets into the mix? I would feel incredibly stupid if I binned my car and or hurt myself by thinking I can react faster than a computer monitoring more parameters than my bum...which is my only spin detector.

A Skyline R35 crashed on the entry to a corner near me last w/e with a tragic outcome. Awful to see - Powerful cars can bite.
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      12-13-2012, 04:51 PM   #20
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I've only ever gone with DTC mode on track days. I personally feel there is just too much risk (money and life) on the line driving with without the aids, especially where you have it.

I certainly don't discount the sensation and thrill one gets by having complete control of their car at the limit.

Our last session at PI saw a fellow 135i write his car off on the exit of the final corner (onto the main straight) - he luckily walked away. Maybe with the driving aids on, the computers may have worked their magic to keep him pointed in the right direction... either way, poo happens and when it does, it happens really quick.

At the end of the day, it's your car on a race track. Do with it as you feel comfortable...
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      12-13-2012, 05:11 PM   #21
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ya'll a bunch of soft cocks, why not get ya mum to drive it for ya while your at it

imho turn it all off, this is a challenge of you AND car against the track. Plus when i have left DTC on (one push of the button) the engine management is tooooo keen to cut power which again imho is much more dangerous than 'feeling' the car start to GO and change your driving style/line accordingly, after all isn't that the fun/challenge in getting it right?

Sure you have the chance of losing it, but if thats what your worried about don't go to the track.
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      12-13-2012, 05:14 PM   #22
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Even with all the aids on you still need to be willing to walk away with nothing

Aids don't override the laws of physics You do something stupid it will still hurt.
There is also the risk of someone else hitting you even if your doing everything right.

I've been told by one of the instructors at Wakefiled that someone that was on pit entry got T-boned by someone that when in too hot to the last corner. They got target fixation and didn't do anything to avoid it.

That is why i have the 130 as a track car with no money owing on it. If for some reason the car is a total lost - life still goes on, hopfully in one piece.
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