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      12-18-2012, 07:45 AM   #1
Ian///M
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Michelin PSS's on the track?

Anyone have any experience with PSS's on the track with their 1M?

The PS2's seem to continually reduce grip as the laps increase. I had PSS's on my 135i and they did ok on the track. I want to maintain a decent level of street comfort and wet performance, so not looking for a semi-slick.
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      12-18-2012, 07:56 AM   #2
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I am trying to get on the track on 31/1/2013. Most reviews with the Porsches seems to indicate it is a better tyre than the PS2 without the big drop off. However it do overheat and once it passed the optimal temperature it is quite greasy.
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      12-18-2012, 10:53 AM   #3
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IIRC Michelin says the PSS can handle track abuse better than PS2. I personally didn't notice the difference. Both of them get greasy pretty fast, and both die prematurely in front due to chunking on the shoulders (I ran both with -2.0 camber).

I now use PSS for street and Yoko AD08 for track. The Yokos get better and better as they heat up, and the front tires last twice as many track days as the Michelins. The Yokos are reasonably quiet and comfortable for street and pretty good in the wet, but not like the Michelins.
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      12-18-2012, 03:44 PM   #4
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Thinking Ventus RS3's or RE11's?
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      12-18-2012, 04:08 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Ian///M View Post
Thinking Ventus RS3's or RE11's?
I was on the PSS bandwagon and it's likely the ideal street tire but I'll likely end up going with RE-11s on my track wheels...
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      12-18-2012, 04:34 PM   #6
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I was on the PSS bandwagon and it's likely the ideal street tire but I'll likely end up going with RE-11s on my track wheels...
RE-11's seem ok as a daily driver tyre too? good in the wet & low noise. I can't warrant having a separate set of track wheels.

It seems that the PSS's won't do much better on the track than the PS2's
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      12-18-2012, 08:47 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Ian///M View Post
Thinking Ventus RS3's or RE11's?
The RE-11s at full tread do much better than RS3s or AD08s. Especially if it's cold. They probably don't like the heat quite as much...

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      12-18-2012, 09:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
IIRC Michelin says the PSS can handle track abuse better than PS2. I personally didn't notice the difference. Both of them get greasy pretty fast, and both die prematurely in front due to chunking on the shoulders (I ran both with -2.0 camber).

I now use PSS for street and Yoko AD08 for track. The Yokos get better and better as they heat up, and the front tires last twice as many track days as the Michelins. The Yokos are reasonably quiet and comfortable for street and pretty good in the wet, but not like the Michelins.
Running just a bit more than 3 degrees camber, I've gotten exceptional life running PSS on the track. While not in the same class as a DOT-R tire (or a racing slick), its about the best street tire I've run on the track.

FWIW, it's been the most popular tire among competitors in the last two One Laps of America, where we're required to run one set of street tires for the entire event (transits and track events).

Neil
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      12-18-2012, 09:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian///M View Post
RE-11's seem ok as a daily driver tyre too? good in the wet & low noise. I can't warrant having a separate set of track wheels.

It seems that the PSS's won't do much better on the track than the PS2's
My impression is that the RE11s are more than competent as a daily-driven tire ... I also get the sense that overall dry grip is a little better than the PSS, whereas the PSS has superior wet grip. I don't remember where I read it (Rennlist, maybe?) but there were some complaints about the PSS getting greasy sooner than the RE11 on the track. Caveat: I haven't driven either of these tires yet.
I do find Neil's observation about One Lap competitors compelling, though.
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      12-18-2012, 10:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ayao View Post
My impression is that the RE11s are more than competent as a daily-driven tire ... I also get the sense that overall dry grip is a little better than the PSS, whereas the PSS has superior wet grip. I don't remember where I read it (Rennlist, maybe?) but there were some complaints about the PSS getting greasy sooner than the RE11 on the track. Caveat: I haven't driven either of these tires yet.
I do find Neil's observation about One Lap competitors compelling, though.
From what I understand, the PSS's is not intended to be used on a track. RE11's are intended for track use, while having good road manners.
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      12-19-2012, 01:42 AM   #11
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Does RE11s comes in stock sizes?
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      12-19-2012, 02:32 AM   #12
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Does RE11s comes in stock sizes?
Yes. Being doing some research and they seem the go. From what I have read, the PSS's will also just end up getting greasy after a few laps and get torn up.

Because I pushed harder than usual on Monday at the track the PS2s took a beating.... It could also be because it was hotter than the other 3 winter track sessions? Both front and rears would have lost 2-3mm that day.
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      12-19-2012, 02:36 AM   #13
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These are the 4 Extreme Performance tyres available:
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      12-19-2012, 10:07 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian///M View Post
From what I understand, the PSS's is not intended to be used on a track. RE11's are intended for track use, while having good road manners.
The PS3 -- which some mistakenly thought was the successor to the PS2 - is not trackworthy, but the PSS most certainly is.

I consider it among the best , along with Bridgestone RE-11 and Hankook RS-3 (which is a bit better in the dry, but far inferior in the wet).

Like any tire run on track, the outside blocks will get chewed up if you're not running enough camber and -- also like any tire -- it will get greasy if you overdrive it. However, I've probably run it 30+ track days, including lots of 30+ minute sessions, and found it damn close in feel to a Toyo RA-1.

It's also the best wearing tire I've ever run on the track.

Neil

EDIT: P.S. I've asked Tire Rack why they placed the PSS in the Max. Performance Summer category instead of Extreme Peformance and apparently it was a Michelin marketing-driven decision.

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      12-19-2012, 10:17 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian///M View Post
Yes. Being doing some research and they seem the go. From what I have read, the PSS's will also just end up getting greasy after a few laps and get torn up.

Because I pushed harder than usual on Monday at the track the PS2s took a beating.... It could also be because it was hotter than the other 3 winter track sessions? Both front and rears would have lost 2-3mm that day.
What's your alignment and what were your tire pressures?

Neil
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      12-19-2012, 04:39 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
The PS3 -- which some mistakenly thought was the successor to the PS2 - is not trackworthy, but the PSS most certainly is.

I consider it among the best , along with Bridgestone RE-11 and Hankook RS-3 (which is a bit better in the dry, but far inferior in the wet).

Like any tire run on track, the outside blocks will get chewed up if you're not running enough camber and -- also like any tire -- it will get greasy if you overdrive it. However, I've probably run it 30+ track days, including lots of 30+ minute sessions, and found it damn close in feel to a Toyo RA-1.

It's also the best wearing tire I've ever run on the track.

Neil

EDIT: P.S. I've asked Tire Rack why they placed the PSS in the Max. Performance Summer category instead of Extreme Peformance and apparently it was a Michelin marketing-driven decision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
What's your alignment and what were your tire pressures?

Neil
Thanks for feedback Neil. My camber is factory, I haven't played with that. It isn't my outside blocks and corners getting chewed up, it is the entire width of the tyre which has peeling from lateral movement on under/oversteer. The rears are probably worse than the fronts.

Pressures are 34psi cold. The same as I have run before without this issue. The only change is the amount of wear on the PS2's and track temps.

I don't really care about the peeling, but rather that it impacts the tire's performance and gets greasy and unpredictable. I can't see that PSS's would be any different, unless they were shaved (I had PSS's on my 135i)

I do think that the PS2's have deteriorated over recent months though. They have done 8,000km (4 track days), but the grip just isn't there like it used to be, even on the street.
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      12-19-2012, 09:03 PM   #17
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Thanks for feedback Neil. My camber is factory, I haven't played with that. It isn't my outside blocks and corners getting chewed up, it is the entire width of the tyre which has peeling from lateral movement on under/oversteer. The rears are probably worse than the fronts.

Pressures are 34psi cold. The same as I have run before without this issue. The only change is the amount of wear on the PS2's and track temps.

I don't really care about the peeling, but rather that it impacts the tire's performance and gets greasy and unpredictable. I can't see that PSS's would be any different, unless they were shaved (I had PSS's on my 135i)

I do think that the PS2's have deteriorated over recent months though. They have done 8,000km (4 track days), but the grip just isn't there like it used to be, even on the street.
Without measuring the tread temperature and knowing your hot temps, it's hard to know for sure, but I suspect two things may be going on.

First, you may be overdriving your tires. That's getting them too hot and leading to the rapid tread wear. I know of one set (on an overdriven, supercharged M3) where this has occurred.

However, it's more likely that you're running way too high psi. Depending on track condition and driving style, you can easily gain 7-9 psi on track. If you started at 34 cold, this would mean 41-43 hot -- which is too high. I'd shoot for 37-38 psi max.

Proper inflation and a good alignment will do wonders. Make sure you're running max camber in front and zero toe. Have your tech pull the pins on the strut towers, and -- after loosening everything up -- tightening it down as set for max camber. Your better alternative is (are?) camber plates.

I run the Vorshlag pieces made for race springs, but I believe that their camber plate is now also available for stock set-ups. This will allow you to run however much camber you want.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

Neil

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      12-19-2012, 09:45 PM   #18
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Without measuring the tread temperature and knowing your hot temps, it's hard to know for sure, but I suspect two things may be going on.

First, you may be overdriving your tires. That's getting them too hot and leading to the rapid tread wear. I know of one set (on an overdriven, supercharged M3) where this has occurred.

However, it's more likely that you're running way too high psi. Depending on track condition and driving style, you can easily gain 7-9 psi on track. If you started at 34 cold, this would mean 41-43 hot -- which is too high. I'd shoot for 37-38 psi max.

Proper inflation and a good alignment will do wonders. Make sure you're running max camber in front and zero toe. Have your tech pull the pins on the strut towers, and -- after loosening everything up -- tightening it down as set for max camber. Your better alternative is (are?) camber plates.

I run the Vorshlag pieces made for race springs, but I believe that their camber plate is now also available for stock set-ups. This will allow you to run however much camber you want.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

Neil
Cool. Thanks for advice Neil. I'll drop pressures more next time, perhaps starting at 31. Also the addition of power from the Evolve tune (+25 rwKw) may be a factor too. It was the first track day with the tune.
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      12-19-2012, 10:17 PM   #19
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There is some great info in this thread.
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      12-20-2012, 06:27 AM   #20
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I concur with Neil. Reduce the pressures a bit (definitely 37-38 hot) and smooth out the driver inputs.

When you find yourself (properly) wearing out the outsides, get some Vorshlag camber plates. They are awesome for stock suspension.
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      12-20-2012, 08:13 AM   #21
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When you find yourself (properly) wearing out the outsides, get some Vorshlag camber plates. They are awesome for stock suspension.
Noted, thanks. They seem like a great bit of kit. Are the $500 each or per pair? How long is the install?
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      12-20-2012, 09:23 AM   #22
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I tried the RS-3 and can not say, that I like this tires.. You need to warm it up to have a good greep and when it's whet it's not a good choice, I got it on my 335i FBO st.2 and when I went to the track my instructor said, that the car is nice, but I have shitty tires...
So I'm not going with RS-3 on 1M for sure! But it is really cheap and that is a good benefit for it.
I'm thinkin between AD08, RE-11 and PSS. All Russian who go on drag racing or on track like the AD08 and think that it's the best choice! Just don't drive fast when it rains!
So RE-11 for mostrly DD, or AD08 if go on track usual. But what to get it is still the question for me)
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