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      05-20-2012, 10:12 PM   #1
yandy
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Hit the tire wall at HPDE Event!

Basically this is what happens when you make a mistake and don't compensate for it enough or fast enough. I was having a really good weekend, even better second day. This was the last session of the day and the weekend, more than half way into the session.

I hit the throttle too early, just a bit too aggressive as well. Back end came loose, I never recovered and car went into the tire wall. Thankfully I'm ok which is what matters. Don't know the extent of $$ the damage yet, but front bumper, passenger side fender, hood, radiotor piping or radiator itself + fan.. plus some other stuff (driver side headlight) I'm sure. As long as there's not frame damage it should be ok.

I'm putting this up, so you guys can take a look and learn from my mistakes and obviously comment and discuss. The more confident you get, the more chances there are to screw up.

EDIT

I removed the video due to friendly professional advice, not because of you guys.. once this is over, I may put it back on. Those that have seen it, know what happened.

Few Pictures


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Last edited by yandy; 05-21-2012 at 03:48 PM.
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      05-21-2012, 01:01 AM   #2
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Wow. Sucks to see that man. Good thing you're ok and that was not a solid wall. I'm even more surprised that your airbags didn't deploy.

Were your tires still gripping before that turn? Hope you can get it fixed.
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      05-21-2012, 01:19 AM   #3
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Sucks that you sent your car into the tire wall, but like you said at least you're fine. It's difficult to tell from the video, perhaps you can clarify exactly, but it seems like you waited way too long to let off the gas. From what it sounds like listening to the video, you're just throttling through the oversteer until you're facing the wall and then letting off the gas (going by when I hear the BOV at ~13 seconds). I can't see where your eyes are, but if your head is any indication you're staring right at that wall and your hands aren't moving. Should look where you want to go and let your hands follow that path of eyesight naturally. Additionally, you started giving it gas a little too soon in that turn like you said. If you had of waited another half second or more you probably would have been fine.

All in all, there are a few lessons to be learned (from what I can see and not having any feedback from you yet). What induced your oversteer was the error of too much gas too early as you stated yourself. But after your error was made, your opportunity to recover was lost by staying on the gas too long once you got into oversteer, and your eyes are locked on where you -think- you're going to go instead of where you want to go which lead to your hands not giving enough input to compensate for the oversteer. Even after you had let off the gas and had begun to compensate, you didn't give any additional input to the steering wheel once you realized the car wasn't straightening out. There was plenty of time to give it some more, but if you watch the video as I'm sure you have a hundred times over, your hands aren't moving and your tires are pointing straight ahead, and then you start to turn INTO the wall (at ~15 seconds), the opposite way of where you needed to go. That's again why I believe you were looking right at the wall instead of at the road where you wanted to go, you steered where you were looking. If there's one thing to really think about working on, it would be recovering from under/over steer. People are going to push themselves too far all the time - it's just a natural human tendency. It's what you do after that threshold is crossed that's the most important.

Good luck with the repairs estimate. If there's not any frame damage, you're looking at about $3k-5k worth of repairs at a good body shop, depending on how much under the hood needs to be replaced.
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      05-21-2012, 01:53 AM   #4
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the airbags didnt deploy. Which means the bumper did its job entirely, which means that you are highly unlikely to have frame damage.

As stated before you got on the gas too soon and just didnt compensate with steering angle.

Always turn into the slide! You actually did the opposite. Did you just lock up when you realized you had lost the backend? Because for a decent portion of that slide you were actually pointing the wheel TOWARDS the wall
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      05-21-2012, 05:39 AM   #5
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Ouch, sorry this happened, but thanks for posting the vid. I've been getting too close to the same thing lately - not sure how to learn better car control without risking that I'll make a mistake. Anyway, I think your car looks like it will be okay. Hope you'll be back in the saddle soon.
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      05-21-2012, 05:48 AM   #6
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Ouch Yandy! I'm glad you're alright man. Sucks butt to have to fix your car, but look on the bright side now you can get some better upgraded replacement parts haha...cf hood and maybe the performance front end?? It has bigger ducts for cooling I'm sure you know what you did wrong at this point so I won't repeat whats been said, but it'll work out!

FYI it was no where near as nasty as what happened this weekend at VIR...instructor took a student's car out with the student in the seat and on the second lap totaled it on one of the fastest turns on the track...
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      05-21-2012, 07:16 AM   #7
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oh man that really sucks! so sorry to see your baby get wrecked. important thing is you're ok. luckily all the damage seems superficial. I had a close call last year but my car stopped 6" from the tires. I am presuming you'll be paying for the repairs out of your own pocket. time to bargain hunt for parts and labor. keeps us posted with updates.
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      05-21-2012, 07:38 AM   #8
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Just curious, what club was this with and how many days do you have under your belt? How is the neck feeling, makes want to go hug my H&N restraint.
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      05-21-2012, 07:39 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsabor67 View Post
Wow. Sucks to see that man. Good thing you're ok and that was not a solid wall. I'm even more surprised that your airbags didn't deploy.

Were your tires still gripping before that turn? Hope you can get it fixed.
Tires were getting a bit slippery, but nothing that would've indicated that much slide. It just happened, car just kinda hooked and decided to go in that direction, which I could've prevented.

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Originally Posted by Hambone View Post
Sucks that you sent your car into the tire wall, but like you said at least you're fine. It's difficult to tell from the video, perhaps you can clarify exactly, but it seems like you waited way too long to let off the gas. From what it sounds like listening to the video, you're just throttling through the oversteer until you're facing the wall and then letting off the gas (going by when I hear the BOV at ~13 seconds). I can't see where your eyes are, but if your head is any indication you're staring right at that wall and your hands aren't moving. Should look where you want to go and let your hands follow that path of eyesight naturally. Additionally, you started giving it gas a little too soon in that turn like you said. If you had of waited another half second or more you probably would have been fine.

All in all, there are a few lessons to be learned (from what I can see and not having any feedback from you yet). What induced your oversteer was the error of too much gas too early as you stated yourself. But after your error was made, your opportunity to recover was lost by staying on the gas too long once you got into oversteer, and your eyes are locked on where you -think- you're going to go instead of where you want to go which lead to your hands not giving enough input to compensate for the oversteer. Even after you had let off the gas and had begun to compensate, you didn't give any additional input to the steering wheel once you realized the car wasn't straightening out. There was plenty of time to give it some more, but if you watch the video as I'm sure you have a hundred times over, your hands aren't moving and your tires are pointing straight ahead, and then you start to turn INTO the wall (at ~15 seconds), the opposite way of where you needed to go. That's again why I believe you were looking right at the wall instead of at the road where you wanted to go, you steered where you were looking. If there's one thing to really think about working on, it would be recovering from under/over steer. People are going to push themselves too far all the time - it's just a natural human tendency. It's what you do after that threshold is crossed that's the most important.

Good luck with the repairs estimate. If there's not any frame damage, you're looking at about $3k-5k worth of repairs at a good body shop, depending on how much under the hood needs to be replaced.
You're absolutely right, way too much throttle too early, but as far as letting off, was pretty much as soon as I felt it. But yes, at that point I suffered from an oh sh*t moment and kinda mentally locked up. Eyes were fixated on the wall, and my mind was going "no, no, no oh shit". It's a learning experience, it's also a corner I've taken hundreds of times now, but for some reason this I just almost smashed the throttle rather than modulate it and just didn't correct.

Some investment will be made into oversteer practice, rally school is in the talks. Also some track seats with harness and hans device, I think it's about that time also. I've been getting faster, more confident and that's when you're more likely to screw up, like I found out. From the video, yes I had ample time to fix it, but I didn't and need to work on making sure I don next time.

I beat my best lap time that weekend by 3 seconds on that track configuration. Finally pretty much got the heal toe down, and was working on faster transition.

Most of all, thanks for all the feedback

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the airbags didnt deploy. Which means the bumper did its job entirely, which means that you are highly unlikely to have frame damage.

As stated before you got on the gas too soon and just didnt compensate with steering angle.

Always turn into the slide! You actually did the opposite. Did you just lock up when you realized you had lost the backend? Because for a decent portion of that slide you were actually pointing the wheel TOWARDS the wall
Yup, pretty much locked up, I've been off track before and have been able to keep the car under control, I've corrected for mistakes or right on the edge type things. Not sure if it was because I was mentally tired as well, last session of the weekend, I had spent some time fixing my wastgates the night before as on of them stuck open again. My saturday was cut short because of that, but overall it was really an amazing weekend, not allot of cars on the track, some rain laps, but mostly dry overcast skys.

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Ouch, sorry this happened, but thanks for posting the vid. I've been getting too close to the same thing lately - not sure how to learn better car control without risking that I'll make a mistake. Anyway, I think your car looks like it will be okay. Hope you'll be back in the saddle soon.
I'm more than def getting right back on it as soon as it's okay, and I recover from the the finances. I've been looking at some rally, rally cross schools for "drifting, oversteer control type of things".

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Originally Posted by Focusedintntions View Post
Ouch Yandy! I'm glad you're alright man. Sucks butt to have to fix your car, but look on the bright side now you can get some better upgraded replacement parts haha...cf hood and maybe the performance front end?? It has bigger ducts for cooling I'm sure you know what you did wrong at this point so I won't repeat whats been said, but it'll work out!

FYI it was no where near as nasty as what happened this weekend at VIR...instructor took a student's car out with the student in the seat and on the second lap totaled it on one of the fastest turns on the track...
I've been looking at the ER wide front body kit (Fiberglass version) can't really afford the CF one right now. So it's a better time than none to start acquiring those parts, as well as the 1M Fan / Radiator should help with cooling.

we can rebuild her, maker her stronger, faster.. lol

p.s - Sorry to hear about the drivers car, hope they were okay. I actually let one of the instructors take the car out on HPDE4 or advanced open passing group with me in the passenger. He was really impressed with it, funny how everyone is usually not aware of what these little things are capable of.

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oh man that really sucks! so sorry to see your baby get wrecked. important thing is you're ok. luckily all the damage seems superficial. I had a close call last year but my car stopped 6" from the tires. I am presuming you'll be paying for the repairs out of your own pocket. time to bargain hunt for parts and labor. keeps us posted with updates.
yup, I'll be paying for all the repairs myself, will keep this thread updated on the repairs / cost.

------------------------

I put this up so that we have at least somewhere to come back to, learn and a database of what something like this costs.

I'll be putting up videos of the entire weekend which was really allot of fun, so at least I got my entire HPDE weekend --- looking at the bright side of it.
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      05-21-2012, 07:42 AM   #10
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Quote:
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Just curious, what club was this with and how many days do you have under your belt? How is the neck feeling, makes want to go hug my H&N restraint.
This was with NASA, and I've done about 15 days now. Neck is a bit sore but nothing terrible, I can move my head around just fine, no pain, or extreme tension. Also, never got light headed or anything, my vision never blurred so at least for now, physically I'm doing ok.

Thanks
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      05-21-2012, 07:42 AM   #11
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Ouch! At what point did you hit the brakes? Seemed like your hands froze and didn't try to correct the oversteer.
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      05-21-2012, 07:49 AM   #12
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Ouch! At what point did you hit the brakes? Seemed like your hands froze and didn't try to correct the oversteer.
brake right away, hands froze and turned to stone! so yes, something that's totally avoidable with right counter steer. Looking at the vide about 1000 times now, I still can't believe I didn't correct for it, sh*t happens, I'll fix it and go practice some oversteer in wide open areas.
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      05-21-2012, 07:54 AM   #13
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brake right away, hands froze and turned to stone! so yes, something that's totally avoidable with right counter steer. Looking at the vide about 1000 times now, I still can't believe I didn't correct for it, sh*t happens, I'll fix it and go practice some oversteer in wide open areas.
Hind site is always 20/20. We all learn from our mistakes. The point you made about being tired I am sure is a contributing factor. Better luck next time! I always tell myself: it can always be worse!
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      05-21-2012, 08:15 AM   #14
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Yup, pretty much locked up, I've been off track before and have been able to keep the car under control, I've corrected for mistakes or right on the edge type things. Not sure if it was because I was mentally tired as well, last session of the weekend, I had spent some time fixing my wastgates the night before as on of them stuck open again. My saturday was cut short because of that, but overall it was really an amazing weekend, not allot of cars on the track, some rain laps, but mostly dry overcast skys.



I'm more than def getting right back on it as soon as it's okay, and I recover from the the finances. I've been looking at some rally, rally cross schools for "drifting, oversteer control type of things".
2 things to note here....I've almost always skipped the very last session of a weekend b/c of that kind of issue. You feel like you're finally in a rhythm and moving well, but generally you don't really realize how dang tired and exhausted you are (mostly mentally) which will lead to mistakes. To me i've always noticed that the most off track incidents happen towards the last few sessions. Guys feel like they have to set their best since track starts opening up and they won't be back tomorrow.

As far as a rally school there are 2 things to think about here. First, a skid pad provides tons of car control practice and it's much cheaper than a rally school. Second, your car control may be fine in a controlled environment when you're expecting that rear end to come around. Its another thing to catch it when you're not expecting it. I think thats the biggest reason why you went into the wall. The rear end surprised you and locked you into not reacting.

I'm not sure a rally school is going to help with that second issue. The only real way to get passed it is to experience it again and work through it. Maybe do more iracing and try to practice it there?? Not an easy thing to find a way to practice.
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      05-21-2012, 08:19 AM   #15
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Quote:
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2 things to note here....I've almost always skipped the very last session of a weekend b/c of that kind of issue. You feel like you're finally in a rhythm and moving well, but generally you don't really realize how dang tired and exhausted you are (mostly mentally) which will lead to mistakes. To me i've always noticed that the most off track incidents happen towards the last few sessions. Guys feel like they have to set their best since track starts opening up and they won't be back tomorrow.

As far as a rally school there are 2 things to think about here. First, a skid pad provides tons of car control practice and it's much cheaper than a rally school. Second, your car control may be fine in a controlled environment when you're expecting that rear end to come around. Its another thing to catch it when you're not expecting it. I think thats the biggest reason why you went into the wall. The rear end surprised you and locked you into not reacting.

I'm not sure a rally school is going to help with that second issue. The only real way to get passed it is to experience it again and work through it. Maybe do more iracing and try to practice it there?? Not an easy thing to find a way to practice.
You're absolutely correct, it was a surprise and that's probably what did it. But my reasoning behind a rally school, skidpad, is to get the muscle reflex in. Once that settles, it's much easier (pure speculation) to react even when unexpected. I have some thinking to do, and some things to figure out, but hopefully is for a much better outcome next time.
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      05-21-2012, 08:21 AM   #16
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honestly the best way to learn how to control the car in a slide properly is to autox.

A lot of people dont like it. But I find that it provides an opportunity to really test your fine control and correction ability.

Its all tight corners and if you gun it too soon you will oversteer (everybody does it). But youll get into the rhythm of this is what I do when I power oversteer, and this is the amount of steering angle I need to correct...etc


Its better than a rally school (which ive also done - I drive an E30 in rally) because you are dealing with your car on concrete or asphalt at autox.
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      05-21-2012, 09:08 AM   #17
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Maybe this is really obvious, but I think what we want is more than just correcting oversteer when it happens. That's where I am right now. I take a turn faster and faster each lap until I start having to catch the tail, and then I might get a little scared and back off the next time. Where we need to get to is planning for the oversteer, making it happen, and then correcting on purpose.

I see in vids of real racers that they turn in much earlier than I could without going off the track, and they throttle on much harder than I could without spinning, and to make that work they're making two or three pretty big corrections, which they were obviously planning all along.
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      05-21-2012, 09:38 AM   #18
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Not sure about this but i heard that HPDE is considered driver's ED, if that s the case the insurance should cover the damages , assuming you de want to go that route. good luck ion any case and glad you came out ok.
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      05-21-2012, 09:41 AM   #19
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here is my close call. btw the grass was wet and I was so lucky the surface was smooth otherwise I could see the car easily flipping many times over if it had hit a buried rock or something. guess this was my first free pass. may not be so lucky next time

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      05-21-2012, 09:41 AM   #20
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Not sure about this but i heard that HPDE is considered driver's ED, if that s the case the insurance should cover the damages , assuming you de want to go that route. good luck ion any case and glad you came out ok.
I'm going to try and get it drivable first, get some estimates this week. Then depending on the damage, I'll decide if I should ask the insurance company and get them involved. $4k or below, I'll cover it without any involvement, anything over and I'll try to see what I can get from them.
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      05-21-2012, 09:52 AM   #21
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here is my close call. btw the grass was wet and I was so lucky the surface was smooth otherwise I could see the car easily flipping many times over if it had hit a buried rock or something. guess this was my first free pass. may not be so lucky next time

holy crap, that was a close call! Glad nothing happened though, but put things into perspective, there's always a risk.
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      05-21-2012, 10:01 AM   #22
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Yandy check your policy very carefully in the exclusions section b/c depending on how the verbage is done, just mentioning that you track your car could be cause enough for your company to completely drop from coverage regardless of a loss or not.
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