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      07-03-2013, 07:34 PM   #1
froop
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N54 OpenFlash Tablet!

I'm not sure if you guys have been keeping up to date with this new product in n54 tuning but it seems very interesting, especially if we'll be able to get some kind of support over in Australia, either remotely, or locally. It's been discussed over on e90post for a few months and was just 'released' today.

Introduction - http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=828601

Release - http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=860720

Thoughts?

Last edited by froop; 07-04-2013 at 11:59 PM.
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      07-03-2013, 08:50 PM   #2
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Always good to have competition. This looks very promising I must say.
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      07-03-2013, 09:35 PM   #3
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Very interesting, looks like it has the potential to be a very powerful device!
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      07-03-2013, 10:57 PM   #4
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i'm just disappointed that it's 100% closed source, and realistically a cheaper ripoff of cobb

had the potential to have a true open tuning platform, but someone realized there was money to make...

with his name, you'd expect stealing from the poor would be the opposite goal.

Last edited by flinchy; 07-03-2013 at 11:05 PM.
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      07-04-2013, 01:13 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flinchy View Post
i'm just disappointed that it's 100% closed source, and realistically a cheaper ripoff of cobb

had the potential to have a true open tuning platform, but someone realized there was money to make...

with his name, you'd expect stealing from the poor would be the opposite goal.
lol, I too am disappointed about that, I would really have liked a full open source alternative, although I don't think the 'poor' drive BMWs.
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      07-04-2013, 01:19 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flinchy View Post
i'm just disappointed that it's 100% closed source, and realistically a cheaper ripoff of cobb

had the potential to have a true open tuning platform, but someone realized there was money to make...

with his name, you'd expect stealing from the poor would be the opposite goal.
Agree flinchy.

Huge letdown.
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      07-04-2013, 01:33 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabnine
Quote:
Originally Posted by flinchy View Post
i'm just disappointed that it's 100% closed source, and realistically a cheaper ripoff of cobb

had the potential to have a true open tuning platform, but someone realized there was money to make...

with his name, you'd expect stealing from the poor would be the opposite goal.
lol, I too am disappointed about that, I would really have liked a full open source alternative, although I don't think the 'poor' drive BMWs.
In america... Well.. N54 cars are $15-$20k and dropping, and all coming out of warranty afaik, it's almost at the point where they can be really considered a mainstream affordable turbo bmw

Heck, i saw one come up on /r/cars as 'should i buy my friends uncles 335i with 100kmi for $8k?'

Or something equally as mental.

Though i know what you mean
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      07-04-2013, 08:45 PM   #8
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Hi Guys,

I will be distributing these locally in Australia. Pricing to be finalised, but will be priced to be similar to USA but with free local delivery.

There is confusion between definitions of what open source means in this market. I am not going to say who is right, but some are disappointed in what the product is and the open source claim. It is unfortunate this has happened.

I personally recognise that some generous developers choose to develop software and donate their efforts for free, and kudos to them for doing that. However I don't think anyone has the right to expect that from anyone. If you think it should be free why don't you do it for free. If your skills are not in software and you are unable to do this, would you do your day job for free?

I think the product is VERY well priced for the features it offers, and if not for the confusion of peoples expectations, I am sure that all would agree it represents both great value and opportunity for the N54 community to Flash tune their cars, share tunes, customise tunes at a much lower price point than has previously been available.

Cheers,

Adrian
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      07-04-2013, 08:53 PM   #9
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Yeah it's a bit disappointing it ended up costing as much as it did (although still significantly cheaper than competition) and doesn't really seem all to different from a Cobb. Cobb only takes 2 minutes to write though vs 12 minutes for a write with this OpenFlash thingy.
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      07-04-2013, 09:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
Hi Guys,

I will be distributing these locally in Australia. Pricing to be finalised, but will be priced to be similar to USA but with free local delivery.

There is confusion between definitions of what open source means in this market. I am not going to say who is right, but some are disappointed in what the product is and the open source claim. It is unfortunate this has happened.

I personally recognise that some generous developers choose to develop software and donate their efforts for free, and kudos to them for doing that. However I don't think anyone has the right to expect that from anyone. If you think it should be free why don't you do it for free. If your skills are not in software and you are unable to do this, would you do your day job for free?

I think the product is VERY well priced for the features it offers, and if not for the confusion of peoples expectations, I am sure that all would agree it represents both great value and opportunity for the N54 community to Flash tune their cars, share tunes, customise tunes at a much lower price point than has previously been available.

Cheers,

Adrian
Yeah I agree that's where all of the disappointment lies, in the "Open Source" labelling. If it was released without all of the open source hype I think the release would have been much much more positive than it has been.

Just out of curiosity, will you be offering the flexfuel and LPFP upgrade in Australia once this is released?
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      07-04-2013, 09:07 PM   #11
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Just out of curiosity, will you be offering the flexfuel and LPFP upgrade in Australia once this is released?
This. And can we send our DME to you for the flash?
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      07-04-2013, 09:11 PM   #12
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This. And can we send our DME to you for the flash?
With this unit you would just be able to send your downloaded ROM file to be edited without having to send the entire DME. That's one of the positives.
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      07-04-2013, 09:39 PM   #13
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This. And can we send our DME to you for the flash?
+2 (I'm happy to keep my procede, but have a cobb ready to go to do the flex fuel mod)
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      07-04-2013, 10:02 PM   #14
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With this unit you would just be able to send your downloaded ROM file to be edited without having to send the entire DME. That's one of the positives.
That's one of the things I am tossing up. But if that's all I am going to use it for I can save the $400 and put it towards something else. I don't have the time at the moment to play with the device, hell I still haven't harassed Vishnu for the new firmware so I can install the Procede I bought from you. It was supposed to be released today, so I guess I will send them an email next. Also I am still a little bitter that what started out as open source project ended up being a commercial product with unlocked maps.
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      07-04-2013, 10:05 PM   #15
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It is similar to Cobb, but does offer a better screen and interface, and a much lower price. It has slower uploads than Cobb currently but that will improve. Also, the initial upload of base flash is once only thing that is done initially. I don't see it a bit deal to spend a bit more time the first time.

"Open source" does have different meaning in different markets. "Open Source" should not be used in the Automotive market unless it is dealing with source code. It has come to mean something different in the flash tuning industry to what it means in other software industries. In tuning it is more about the knowledge sharing of maps and tuning related information. In other industries it is about the knowledge sharing of the code itself. Clearly the naming is a bit misleading, and is the source of the confusion in this case. This tuning solution will enable the sharing of the tuning information.

I do plan to support flexfuel for the Procede including the backend flash. I still have to work out how to do this. It may be that I develop a jig to allow bench programming. It may be that I have a pool flash unit that I send to customers with a deposit system. I will have to work that out. I have not considered the LPFP upgrade yet. I will have to look into that. This would be a low volume thing that would only be useful for higher power cars.
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      07-04-2013, 10:12 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
It is similar to Cobb, but does offer a better screen and interface, and a much lower price. It has slower uploads than Cobb currently but that will improve. Also, the initial upload of base flash is once only thing that is done initially. I don't see it a bit deal to spend a bit more time the first time.

"Open source" does have different meaning in different markets. "Open Source" should not be used in the Automotive market unless it is dealing with source code. It has come to mean something different in the flash tuning industry to what it means in other software industries. In tuning it is more about the knowledge sharing of maps and tuning related information. In other industries it is about the knowledge sharing of the code itself. Clearly the naming is a bit misleading, and is the source of the confusion in this case. This tuning solution will enable the sharing of the tuning information.

I do plan to support flexfuel for the Procede including the backend flash. I still have to work out how to do this. It may be that I develop a jig to allow bench programming. It may be that I have a pool flash unit that I send to customers with a deposit system. I will have to work that out. I have not considered the LPFP upgrade yet. I will have to look into that. This would be a low volume thing that would only be useful for higher power cars.
We will just have to disagree on what open source and just unlocked maps means. Either way, it is an option for us Australians that saves having to ship our DME to the US and a lower cost product could mean an increase in competition which leads to either a decrease in price on current offerings or a stabilisation in price with some sort of next generation development to justice the price from existing companies. Like I said, I just feel a bit bitter at this stage.

With E85 becoming more and more available, to me it is on of the best bang for your buck mods out there. You can run it without DP's, FMIC, Charge Pipes all of that, just need the Procede Kit and a Flash, and POW instant Torque and HP.
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      07-04-2013, 10:13 PM   #17
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I am interested in the bitterness regarding this not being "open source" to some people. I am trying to understand what people expect.

Do people simply see this as something they thought they were going to get but are not now and are disappointed?

Or do people expect that other people should freely give their time and knowledge so that they can make their car faster for less money? This being the case, is it reasonable to expect this given you expect payment for the job you do?

Do people thing that software has not intrinsic value compared to hardware. An electronic device is worth the sum of its parts, and any development time in working out how to put the parts together or programming time for the data that gets programmed into memory is of no value since you can email a file for nothing and you don't have to pay money for it at a parts store? Do you also think that music and movies should be free since it costs nothing to download it and the creators of such things do not deserve payment?

I am really just curious... I want to understand what people think. I work as an engineer and design hardware and software, so I have clear reasons for my own attitudes.
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      07-04-2013, 10:19 PM   #18
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We will just have to disagree on what open source and just unlocked maps means.
I was not expressing my opinion on what open source means. I was just stating an observation on what it appears to me to have come to mean in the market place.

"Open Source" in tuning is most widely known via ECUFlash in the EVO/Subaru community. I don't think that is open source either, but it is what has come to be know as open source in flash tuning. The cables are cheaper (and less capable) in that market, and the VINs are not locked, but other than that it similar. I can see how the VIN lock would be a distraction to many, but on the definition of what Open Source means, I don't really see any difference.
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      07-04-2013, 10:34 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
I am interested in the bitterness regarding this not being "open source" to some people. I am trying to understand what people expect.

Do people simply see this as something they thought they were going to get but are not now and are disappointed?

Or do people expect that other people should freely give their time and knowledge so that they can make their car faster for less money? This being the case, is it reasonable to expect this given you expect payment for the job you do?

Do people thing that software has not intrinsic value compared to hardware. An electronic device is worth the sum of its parts, and any development time in working out how to put the parts together or programming time for the data that gets programmed into memory is of no value since you can email a file for nothing and you don't have to pay money for it at a parts store? Do you also think that music and movies should be free since it costs nothing to download it and the creators of such things do not deserve payment?

I am really just curious... I want to understand what people think. I work as an engineer and design hardware and software, so I have clear reasons for my own attitudes.
I read the introduction thread from start to finish and I believe where the disappointment stems from is that it seemed as though it was going to be something that would be released for free for the community. There was mention of a cable, tablet app, etc. All this hype built up and Rombinhood never indicated otherwise that it was not going to be 'free'.

Of course he is entitled to charge whatever he wishes for a product that he has developed and I have no argument against that. Also, no one has the right to 'expect' that Rombinhood do all of this work for free however it 'appeared' implied and that's where the confusion, misunderstanding and disappointment lies. If it was introduced as a new 'product' rather than an 'open source project' from the beginning then there wouldn't be any issue and everyone would be jumping for joy that there was a new, promising and very competitively priced product introduced to the market.

In saying that, the end result does seem promising and I'll wait until some people have tested it and they've added datalogging. I'm definitely interested in being able to datalog with it as currently I only own a 5.5kg laptop which sucks huge balls to try and use in the car.
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      07-04-2013, 10:38 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
I was not expressing my opinion on what open source means. I was just stating an observation on what it appears to me to have come to mean in the market place.

"Open Source" in tuning is most widely known via ECUFlash in the EVO/Subaru community. I don't think that is open source either, but it is what has come to be know as open source in flash tuning. The cables are cheaper (and less capable) in that market, and the VINs are not locked, but other than that it similar. I can see how the VIN lock would be a distraction to many, but on the definition of what Open Source means, I don't really see any difference.
I saw a call to arms thread for an open source project asking for people to contribute what they could. His original thread in the original post was clearly talking about a full open source project, it could not have been clearer despite current claims to the contrary. I came to the thread late, as I have only just come onto the n54 scene, and was excited by the way the community embraced him and the ideas in the first post. It really was inspiring, to the point that I even offered whatever limited help I could several months after the project had started and the thread had laid limp. The bitterness I speak of is the disappointment in the complete redirection of the project. Then to read the claims in the new post that everyone had simply misunderstood his original intentions and that it had been a commercial enterprise from the get go, really just created more disappointment, in the attitude. As I stated above there are so many positives to this project and I doubt anyone who buys the device will be disappointment in the bang for buck that it offers, that I am sure it will all blow over shortly.

Edit: And you did ask
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      07-04-2013, 10:41 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by froop View Post
I read the introduction thread from start to finish and I believe where the disappointment stems from is that it seemed as though it was going to be something that would be released for free for the community. There was mention of a cable, tablet app, etc. All this hype built up and Rombinhood never indicated otherwise that it was not going to be 'free'.

Of course he is entitled to charge whatever he wishes for a product that he has developed and I have no argument against that. Also, no one has the right to 'expect' that Rombinhood do all of this work for free however it 'appeared' implied and that's where the confusion, misunderstanding and disappointment lies. If it was introduced as a new 'product' rather than an 'open source project' from the beginning then there wouldn't be any issue and everyone would be jumping for joy that there was a new, promising and very competitively priced product introduced to the market.

In saying that, the end result does seem promising and I'll wait until some people have tested it and they've added datalogging. I'm definitely interested in being able to datalog with it as currently I only own a 5.5kg laptop which sucks huge balls to try and use in the car.
I can totally understand that. If something was offered and then changed to something that is not as good, I would be disappointed.

It just seems that there are a bunch of people who feel some entitlement to be given things so they can make their car go faster even though they would never give of their own time/money for the community if they had something to offer. Seems that some people feel entitlement to take from society without a thought for other people.
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      07-04-2013, 10:49 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu
Quote:
Originally Posted by froop View Post
I read the introduction thread from start to finish and I believe where the disappointment stems from is that it seemed as though it was going to be something that would be released for free for the community. There was mention of a cable, tablet app, etc. All this hype built up and Rombinhood never indicated otherwise that it was not going to be 'free'.

Of course he is entitled to charge whatever he wishes for a product that he has developed and I have no argument against that. Also, no one has the right to 'expect' that Rombinhood do all of this work for free however it 'appeared' implied and that's where the confusion, misunderstanding and disappointment lies. If it was introduced as a new 'product' rather than an 'open source project' from the beginning then there wouldn't be any issue and everyone would be jumping for joy that there was a new, promising and very competitively priced product introduced to the market.

In saying that, the end result does seem promising and I'll wait until some people have tested it and they've added datalogging. I'm definitely interested in being able to datalog with it as currently I only own a 5.5kg laptop which sucks huge balls to try and use in the car.
I can totally understand that. If something was offered and then changed to something that is not as good, I would be disappointed.

It just seems that there are a bunch of people who feel some entitlement to be given things so they can make their car go faster even though they would never give of their own time/money for the community if they had something to offer. Seems that some people feel entitlement to take from society without a thought for other people.
I agree. Whilst I'm sure there is some disappointment due to the circumstances around which it was presented people seem to hold a lot of hostility towards him which is a little unwarranted. The way I see it is that he appears to have released a good product at a good price which can only be good for the community. It's definitely not bad thing.

Whether he changed his mind midway or it was his plan all along we can only speculate, however he never took anything from anyone and the work he produced was his own and he's entitled to change his mind if he wishes.
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