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      04-04-2013, 07:12 AM   #1
timbo_3101
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Brakes: recommendations?

My stock brakes lasted the entire 2012 season (around eight track days), without any performance issues.

Since replacing with OEM rotors and pads, my front rotors are again failing (warped) after a single event (low speed circuit). This is both disappointing and frustrating to say the least

What upgraded equipment is recommended to prolong longevity or enhance braking performance? (This vehicle is predominantly used for club and track event.)

Thank in advance
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      04-04-2013, 09:05 AM   #2
MDORPHN
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Do a little research.

Extremely unlikely that you warped your rotors. Much more likely that you simply have deposits from your brake pads.

Neil
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      04-04-2013, 09:26 AM   #3
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Getting the brakes really hot should not warp them. Most likely uneven pad transfer onto the rotor. Although, overtightening/uneven tightening of the wheel bolts will warp the rotor.
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      04-04-2013, 09:38 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo_3101 View Post
My stock brakes lasted the entire 2012 season (around eight track days), without any performance issues.

Since replacing with OEM rotors and pads, my front rotors are again failing (warped) after a single event (low speed circuit). This is both disappointing and frustrating to say the least

What upgraded equipment is recommended to prolong longevity or enhance braking performance? (This vehicle is predominantly used for club and track event.)

Thank in advance
Ceramics - did 68 laps (including a 28 laps run) without any problem. The Mov'it about half the price of the brembos .
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      04-04-2013, 09:42 AM   #5
MDORPHN
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I now have 60+ track days on my 1M. With proper fluids, pads and cooling, the stock calipers and rotors are more than up to the job!

Neil
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      04-04-2013, 07:41 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
Much more likely that you simply have deposits from your brake pads.
Thanks for suggestion - actually my (new) front brake pad crumbled after one track day. If there are deposits, would this improve with further heat further racing?
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      04-04-2013, 07:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
Most likely uneven pad transfer onto the rotor. Although, overtightening/uneven tightening of the wheel bolts will warp the rotor.
Interesting, thanks for the insight.
(This year have been using race tyres, which might explain uneven tightening of wheel bolts.)
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      04-04-2013, 09:04 PM   #8
MDORPHN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo_3101 View Post
Thanks for suggestion - actually my (new) front brake pad crumbled after one track day. If there are deposits, would this improve with further heat further racing?
Yes, you can generally remove deposits by using proper track pads, but it will likely take a couple of laps once the pads and rotors are up to temp.

What type of pads were you using?

Also, I can't say I understand how using race tires would lead to uneven tightening of the lug bolts...

Neil
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      04-04-2013, 09:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
Yes, you can generally remove deposits by using proper track pads, but it will likely take a couple of laps once the pads and rotors are up to temp.

What type of pads were you using?
All OEM consumables.
(Only upgrades including performance brake fluid and braided lines.)
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      04-04-2013, 10:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo_3101 View Post
All OEM consumables.
(Only upgrades including performance brake fluid and braided lines.)
Oem brake pads and race rubber do not mix on the track!

Neil
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      04-04-2013, 10:23 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
Oem brake pads and race rubber do not mix on the track!
Really?! My lap times (competition rubber) are similar or marginally improved compared to previous events (street tyres). Why then should my brakes begin to fail now?
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      04-04-2013, 10:23 PM   #12
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Putting in race pads and using them cold should clean the rotors and fix the issue.

Have a look here
http://www.essexparts.com/learning-c.../swapping_pads
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      04-04-2013, 10:32 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timbo_3101 View Post
Really?! My lap times (competition rubber) are similar or marginally improved compared to previous events (street tyres). Why then should my brakes begin to fail now?
The limiting factor in braking is your tires -- they determine how much traction you have.

You are therefore able to brake harder (and stop/slow down in shorter distance) with race tires, and are generating that much more kinetic energy into heat.

The additional heat from the greater braking is simply too much for the stock pads to handle.

Neil

Last edited by MDORPHN; 04-04-2013 at 10:46 PM.
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      04-05-2013, 12:10 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nugget View Post
Putting in race pads and using them cold should clean the rotors and fix the issue.

Have a look here
http://www.essexparts.com/learning-c.../swapping_pads
Thanks, quite informative
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      04-05-2013, 08:56 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
The limiting factor in braking is your tires -- they determine how much traction you have.
You are therefore able to brake harder (and stop/slow down in shorter distance) with race tires, and are generating that much more kinetic energy into heat.
Neil
Yes, the limiting factor for braking is the tires.

But your statement is not quite correct. The amount of heat going into the brakes is purely determined by the mass and the velocity. So, if you are slowing down from 100 to 50 and the mass is the same, you are creating the same amount of heat for the brakes to dissipate. The tires don't make a difference. Although, with good tires, you will not be slowing down as much for a corner, so there should actually be a little less heat going into the brakes.

Best way to make your brakes last longer at the track is to slow down less. The faster you are in the corners, the longer your brakes will last.
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      04-05-2013, 09:10 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
Yes, the limiting factor for braking is the tires.

But your statement is not quite correct. The amount of heat going into the brakes is purely determined by the mass and the velocity. So, if you are slowing down from 100 to 50 and the mass is the same, you are creating the same amount of heat for the brakes to dissipate. The tires don't make a difference. Although, with good tires, you will not be slowing down as much for a corner, so there should actually be a little less heat going into the brakes.

Best way to make your brakes last longer at the track is to slow down less. The faster you are in the corners, the longer your brakes will last.
Fair enough, and I certainly agree with your last point.

Nonetheless, assuming the op is an intermediate or advanced driver, I don't know why he would have imagined that the stock pads would be sufficient -- especially if he was running race tires.

Neil
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      04-08-2013, 12:22 AM   #17
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If your rotors continue to have accelerated wear or warping with street or race pads, have a look at the PFC Direct Drive rotors, they will run much cooler and last longer. They are also about 4.2 lighter per rotor!


http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=818534
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      04-08-2013, 08:51 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
If your rotors continue to have accelerated wear or warping with street or race pads, have a look at the PFC Direct Drive rotors, they will run much cooler and last longer. They are also about 4.2 lighter per rotor!


http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=818534
+1.

I've only heard good things about them and will be moving to them once I'm no longer able to find lightly used take-off rotors (generally from E92 M3 owners moving to big brake kits).

Neil
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      04-08-2013, 04:16 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
Yes, the limiting factor for braking is the tires.

But your statement is not quite correct. The amount of heat going into the brakes is purely determined by the mass and the velocity. So, if you are slowing down from 100 to 50 and the mass is the same, you are creating the same amount of heat for the brakes to dissipate. The tires don't make a difference. Although, with good tires, you will not be slowing down as much for a corner, so there should actually be a little less heat going into the brakes.

Best way to make your brakes last longer at the track is to slow down less. The faster you are in the corners, the longer your brakes will last.
The situation re heat build up is, I believe, a little more complicated than either of you are giving it credit for. Not to belabor, but heat dissipated by brake in a given corner will be determined by kinetic energy delta for the car. This would not necessarily be less with higher corner speed as will have higher entry speed as well and as far as fade is concerned, the shorter lap times will lead to less time to dissipate the heat (ie, you will be quicker on the straights too.) But certainly if higher corner speed allows no or less braking you will be better off!
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      04-28-2013, 06:03 PM   #20
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I have finally fitted Pagid Yellow RS19 pads and driven perhaps 100km since, trying to brake hard from speeds of up to 120km/h. Unfortunately my vehicle (front) still vibrates and shudders. Furthermore, there appears to be much squeal when the brakes are applied gently at low speeds eg 10-20km/h.

How long does it take to remove the deposits and re-establish smooth braking? Or is this now likely to be a rotor issue?
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      04-28-2013, 07:01 PM   #21
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I really don't think you can warp these rotors. I would recommend cleaning the rotors with a scotch brite pad with some brake cleaner then rubbing them with some really fine sand paper in an effort to rid the rotors of the deposits. That's what I did and it improved, but the issue wasn't completely eradicated until some aggressive driving with more aggressive pads (high speed bed in process and a 2 day track day have done the trick).

Hope this helps.
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      04-28-2013, 10:32 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcrain View Post
I really don't think you can warp these rotors. I would recommend cleaning the rotors with a scotch brite pad with some brake cleaner then rubbing them with some really fine sand paper in an effort to rid the rotors of the deposits. That's what I did and it improved, but the issue wasn't completely eradicated until some aggressive driving with more aggressive pads (high speed bed in process and a 2 day track day have done the trick).

Hope this helps.
Don't waste your time with sand paper or scotch brite. Since you've already have the Pagid pads on the car use the technique given in StopTech's Technical White Paper site. Their method works much better and faster.

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-su...l-white-papers

Lot's of other good info concerning brakes here too.
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