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      02-09-2013, 10:57 AM   #1
Ayrton91
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Hankook RS3s vs. Ventus V12 Evo for track tires

So I finally took the plunge and jumped into the APEX group buy to get me a set of wheels for track days (went for the square setup: 18 9.5 et22). Now figuring out what tires to use. Trying to balance good performance, durability and cost.

I also track an SVT Focus which also acts as my DD and on that one I have been using the Ventus V12 Evo for both track and daily driving with pretty good results in terms of the three variables noted above. Of course the Focus has half the power of the 1M...

Have read a lot of good reviews of the RS3s here, but could not find anything on the V12s specific to the 1M on track, so wondering if there was anybody out there that had tried them. The price difference between both for a full set is around $300 and RS3s seem to last less, which is why I am evaluating both (track activity expenses keep going up and they seem to be negatively correlated to my wife's tolerance)....
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      02-09-2013, 11:21 AM   #2
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The V12s are a mediocre summer tire at best. They are a very soft sidewall tire with marginal ultimate grip and from what i hear, very little audible feedback. They are fine as a DD tire that you want to get miles out of, but for a 300+ hp car, there are plenty of better options, but at a cost.

The new ZIIs are at the top of my list for my DD/AutoX wheels for this coming spring and they are reasonably priced compared to comparable tires.

Sidenote: I loved my old SVT Focus! I wish i had been more into modding and performance at the time, because i feel its a pretty good platform to work off of.

03 CD Silver 4door SVT.
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      02-09-2013, 11:42 AM   #3
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I think the V12's are a little better than blaze seems to , but agree they aren't spectacular. In the "bang for the buck" category they are a fantastic deal. If you're looking for a real track tire though, yeah look elsewhere. I don't have experience w/ the RS3's though.

I seem to remember the track guys here liking the Dunlop Star Spec's a lot, might be worth a look at them.

Then again, maybe if price matters a lot, and you're just looking to have fun and don't care how well you do, the V12's could be perfect? LOL.
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      02-09-2013, 11:51 AM   #4
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I have RS3s on my track wheels now and will be replacing them this year. They seem 'nervous' to me at higher speeds. My climate is cooler so track temp may be playing a factor. The price is good, but I am not a fan.
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      02-09-2013, 12:03 PM   #5
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Isnt the Hankook Ventus S1evo availible? Ist should be the better, sportier Tire then the V12 i i got allready. The V12 is getting a little bit greasey After a few Rounds. The S1 will be my next Summer Tire
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      02-09-2013, 12:08 PM   #6
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RS-3 is a good track tire in the dry, not so much in the wet
.
Preliminary testing suggests that the new Dunlop Direzza Z2 (successor to the Star Spec Z1) is better than the RS-3 in the dry and far superior in the wet.

The BF Goodrich g-Force Rival, just introduced a couple of weeks ago and not yet subject to good comparison to the Z2, is likely the fastest in the dry, but may suffer in the wet.

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      02-10-2013, 12:03 AM   #7
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The V12s are max performance summer tires and I personally would not choose a max performance tire for a dedicated track setup. I would definitely go with an extreme performance summer tire like the RS3 or Direzza Star Spec or Z2.
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      02-10-2013, 12:26 AM   #8
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Ventus V12 are great... For the price. I liked mine a lot. However, they did make the steering feel mushy and are definitely a street tire. They don't perform very well on a track. While the dry grip was better than stock 135i RFTs and plenty for a daily driver tire, what impressed me the most was the wet grip - comparable to very high end tires at a much more reasonable price. I pushed my car in the rain with those tires more than most.

The RS3 are really track tires that can double duty on the street (not the other way around). They get chewed up very fast in normal driving and really like to be warm to perform best. Almost any tire that's well suited for a track will be less than ideal for the road, sorry to say. The gripper the tire is, the softer it tends to be, and the faster it will wear.

So it depends... What are you looking for? A good street tire with passable track performance? The V12 might fill that role, they could ALMOST handle my JB+ tune without losing traction, whereas the stock 135i runflats couldn't handle stock power levels in the dry all the time. If you're looking for a more "real" track tire that won't screw you over if it starts drizzling like a drag tire, or won't go bald after a month, try star specs or rs3. Though be warned they still may get used up faster than a PSS or other tire.
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      02-12-2013, 06:40 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
I have RS3s on my track wheels now and will be replacing them this year. They seem 'nervous' to me at higher speeds. My climate is cooler so track temp may be playing a factor. The price is good, but I am not a fan.

wow.. GREAT observation. they do seem to tramline a bit.. or.. at least transmit some more vibration to the steering wheel vs my OEM setup. The funny part is that while they seem a bit " nervous" at highway speeds from 65-80 mph on a roadway, at the same speeds or even higher, for me, they never exhibit this feeling on a track. I have been up to an indicated 145-150MPh on mine FREQUENTLY and they are rock solid on track at this speed.

Absolutely recommended for combo street/autocross/ track in warm climates.
if you autocross, there is no other choice. Well.. the dunlop star spec I is an option but will be slower.
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      02-12-2013, 06:43 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
RS-3 is a good track tire in the dry, not so much in the wet
.
Preliminary testing suggests that the new Dunlop Direzza Z2 (successor to the Star Spec Z1) is better than the RS-3 in the dry and far superior in the wet.

The BF Goodrich g-Force Rival, just introduced a couple of weeks ago and not yet subject to good comparison to the Z2, is likely the fastest in the dry, but may suffer in the wet.

Neil
I agree.. If wet performance is a concern. Then definitely go with the star specs. The RS-3s really arent that bad in the rain at all.. ... but the Dunlops are the SHIZNIT for wet.
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      02-19-2013, 04:49 PM   #11
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RS-3s are much more suited for the track. Hankooks are great on the street though!
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      02-19-2013, 05:32 PM   #12
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IThe RS-3s really arent that bad in the rain at all..
"Aren't that bad in the rain"... If it's warm, maybe. If it's cool I'd say they are that bad. If it's cold and wet I'd say they are terrible. According to my time slips, anyway.

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but the Dunlops are the SHIZNIT for wet.
For extreme performance summer they are good, almost as good as an RE-11. But the Z1 spec stars were clearly slower in the rain than the PSS, themselves slightly slower in deep water than say a Goodyear Asymmetric. The Z2 is supposed to be faster, but there are some really good wet tires out there to praise them that highly. My $.02, anyway...
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      02-19-2013, 05:56 PM   #13
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As somebody already mentioned above, the V12's are a mediocre summer tire at best. The RS-3s are a great track tire that also performs well on the street.

I would gladly drive the RS-3 on the street, but I wouldn't take the V12s to the track. Hope that answer's the OPs question.

There is a lot of talk about the Z2's and the G-Force Rivals. But as with the PSS, I'll reserve my judgment until I seem them out there at the auto-x/track. Talk is cheap, I like to see numbers.

The PSS was talked up like crazy, but I've yet to be beaten by them at an event
The Z1's were great. Hopefully the Z2 are even better - but again, I'll wait 'till I see it....

Meanwhile, RS-3 all the way!

PS: I kicked some serious butt at the last auto-x in the rain - on RS-3s....
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      02-19-2013, 06:22 PM   #14
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But as with the PSS, I'll reserve my judgment until I seem them out there at the auto-x/track. Talk is cheap, I like to see numbers.

The PSS was talked up like crazy, but I've yet to be beaten by them at an event
Yea, I've had one TTOD and one second place on the PSS in the wet (beaten by a PSS driver, beat a few hoosier wet cars). I switched to RS-3 and I went way down the list in identical conditions the next weekend.

I'd be interested in hearing what other tires those of you who think the RS-3 is good in the wet have been testing/ driving on.
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      02-19-2013, 06:26 PM   #15
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Yea, I've had one TTOD and one second place on the PSS in the wet (beaten by a PSS driver, beat a few hoosier wet cars). I switched to RS-3 and I went way down the list in identical conditions the next weekend.
I didn't mean to focus on the wet debate here.
I've not yet been beaten by a PSS period - weather not withstanding.

If the PSS are better in the wet, so be it. Just saying that overall I think the PSS are way over-hyped and haven't delivered. Don't want to see that to happen with the Z2 or the Rivals. Competition is good for us!
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      02-19-2013, 06:40 PM   #16
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Just saying that overall I think the PSS are way over-hyped and haven't delivered.
Yea, I'll take issue with your calling it hype. I've had this debate on another forum. Ended when the guy drove the PSS on the track, in the dry. I assume you haven't driven it either?

It's a mistake to assume people are saying the PSS it a top flight competition specialist- it's not. It's a 300 treadware, 30k mile warranted street tire that is, under more than a couple conditions, able to compete head to head with near top of the line autocross and track specialists with less than 1/3 the treadwear and nothing like the all-around performance. It is probably not top in any one category, but it is near the top in a number. I have both the the RS-3 and PSS for my car currently on different sets of wheels, and overall the PSS is a much, much more impressive tire. Try it before you call it hype- the PSS has moved the game on by a few years.
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      02-19-2013, 06:45 PM   #17
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Yea, I've had one TTOD and one second place on the PSS in the wet (beaten by a PSS driver, beat a few hoosier wet cars). I switched to RS-3 and I went way down the list in identical conditions the next weekend.

I'd be interested in hearing what other tires those of you who think the RS-3 is good in the wet have been testing/ driving on.

I'm with int2... his experience is that they are fine in the rain.
I don't get the impression that he is saying they are his FIRST choice.. then again.. maybe they are?


The way people I have heard give negatives about the RS-3 is comments as yours that they are HORRIBLE... as in UNDRIVABLE.. WHITE KNUCKLE RIDE... MIGHT SLIDE OFF THE ROAD etc. If that's your experience then fine... mine is a bit different. And I'm not saying this as FIGHTING words.. just saying I have a different experience. I went out on track thinking my RS-3s wouldnt evacuate water at all and that the car would be a complete handful, and it wasn't.

I have driven on my RS-3s in 40 degree dry temps.. they were fine. They could have been better if it wwere warmer certainly. I have driven on them in the wet on both street and on track and they were fine as well. Was it warm and wet? I suppose .. probably mid 50s.. not 70s or 80s... but then again it wasn't 42 degrees and wet... which could easily be far worse.. perhaps that's the temps you experienced them in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by int2str View Post
I didn't mean to focus on the wet debate here.
I've not yet been beaten by a PSS period - weather not withstanding.

If the PSS are better in the wet, so be it. Just saying that overall I think the PSS are way over-hyped and haven't delivered. Don't want to see that to happen with the Z2 or the Rivals. Competition is good for us!

I think the PSS is a great tire from what I have seen. I won't go as far to say they are over hyped.. but again.. let's not get carried away with what they are either.... a GREAT street tire that CAN go to the track. However, I will say that I have seen several people chunk their PSS tires on track in Colorado and also at Heartland park in kansas.. These were mostly street going STOCK E9x M3s and 1M that were at the occasional track event similar to what Lcrain was saying. So I simply wouldnt purchase PSS for tires that primarily are going to be used on the track at any time because they could fall apart. The RS-3 wont chunk or fall apart in warm or hot temps. Will it give up some in the wet? Absolutely!
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      02-19-2013, 09:00 PM   #18
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We're on the same page on some but not all points.

To be clear, I like the RS-3, and was able to burn through a set both of the road and in competition with a large smile on my face and without crunching the car in conditions that included 40s and rain. So I'd agree they are not un-driveable in the cold or wet, though I do think that on the low end performance easily drops off enough that they significantly increase risk (cold plus wet plus no heat in the tire will reduce safety margins and/ or catch a driver out). Can you drive them in those conditions? Sure. Obviously not my first choice.

I also agree that I personally wouldn't get the PSS primarily for track use. However, realize that a number of track schools, such as this corvette driving school, have switched to the PSS exclusively as their track tire: http://www.springmountainmotorsports...riving-schools
I'm not sure if it's a pressure issue or what, but they successfully avoid chunking with 100% track use, and they are getting both great stick and ridiculous track life. Obviously the Michelin has a 30k tread wear warranty, and I'm told that it's still got a 15k tread wear warranty if you compete/ autocross it (not sure about track, but I get the impression it may still apply?). In any case, this seems very counter to your "fall apart" comment.

The PSS has also been the tire to have for One Lap over the last couple years, over R-S3s and anything else you want to name- another data point that it's very effective in a range of track conditions.

Have you driven them much? Sure the RS-3 is "fine" in many conditions, and as I've said I drive it with a huge smile on my face, but seriously there is no condition I can think of this side of snow where the PSS isn't far, far above "fine".
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      02-19-2013, 10:00 PM   #19
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PSS are a good street tyre, not suitable for the track unless you are dawdling.
AD08s are a pretty good street/track combo, they seem to be wearing well as well.
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      02-20-2013, 12:14 PM   #20
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Quote:
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We're on the same page on some but not all points.

To be clear, I like the RS-3, and was able to burn through a set both of the road and in competition with a large smile on my face and without crunching the car in conditions that included 40s and rain. So I'd agree they are not un-driveable in the cold or wet, though I do think that on the low end performance easily drops off enough that they significantly increase risk (cold plus wet plus no heat in the tire will reduce safety margins and/ or catch a driver out). Can you drive them in those conditions? Sure. Obviously not my first choice.

I also agree that I personally wouldn't get the PSS primarily for track use. However, realize that a number of track schools, such as this corvette driving school, have switched to the PSS exclusively as their track tire: http://www.springmountainmotorsports...riving-schools
I'm not sure if it's a pressure issue or what, but they successfully avoid chunking with 100% track use, and they are getting both great stick and ridiculous track life. Obviously the Michelin has a 30k tread wear warranty, and I'm told that it's still got a 15k tread wear warranty if you compete/ autocross it (not sure about track, but I get the impression it may still apply?). In any case, this seems very counter to your "fall apart" comment.

The PSS has also been the tire to have for One Lap over the last couple years, over R-S3s and anything else you want to name- another data point that it's very effective in a range of track conditions.

Have you driven them much? Sure the RS-3 is "fine" in many conditions, and as I've said I drive it with a huge smile on my face, but seriously there is no condition I can think of this side of snow where the PSS isn't far, far above "fine".
went to the link provided.. note big 'ol MICHELIN Sponsor Decal on Ron Fellow's vette at Spring Mountain.

here is a one lap sponsor list... clearly one cannot pick ANY tire to run.. Due to TIRE RACK sponsorship.

http://www.onelapofamerica.com/rules...?whatsNewId=40 2013

just pointing out that oftentimes the reasons for a tire being popular in a race series has little do with the actual qualities of the tire.. but sponsorship... or tire contignency or other awards may make a big difference in what compeititors use.

I also thought that in the past, Michelin was a spec tire manufacturer for One lap... and that Tire rack was the required SUPPLIER. perhaps someone else can drop the science on that..

A few minutes on google confirmed both.

the event used to be the MICHELIN Car and Driver one Lap of America... and contingency was available
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49369

not sure if Michelin still has the same contignency program... or if hankook has a similar program.. but again.. just pointing out that external factors may make the difference.

Personally,.... If I were running run lap.. I would probably go with the Michelins for the quiter ride between transit stages as well as the increased wet traction. One bad result in the wet can kill the event. If the event were run in the Southwest only or CA only.. perhaps the most popular tire choice would be different.. Knowhutimean?
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      02-20-2013, 03:00 PM   #21
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I'm certain Michelin is giving preferential pricing to driving schools using their tires. That said, feedback from the schools is they are sticky and the tires hold together- you'll agree it would quickly get expensive for either Michelin or the school if they were falling apart.

For One Lap Michelin hasn't sponsored for years, and tire rack gives an equal discount on any tire brand they sell- no monetary preference for the Michelins. The Michelins are generally chosen (and win) for overall performance over tires like the AD08, RS-3 and Star Spec for two main reasons I think. First, wet performance, as you pointed out. Second the format rewards tires that work well cool and get up to temperature very quickly, as you often don't have a chance to get the track specialists up to temp from the first lap. I agree that if you were only running dry, hot tracks the choice would swing towards a AD08 or RS-3, but the point remains that for that type of all around test, including track, there currently isn't a better tire. The BFG Rival might change that. If not it's clear Goodyear and others are gearing up to field something better.

For now, however, you might consider trying a set of the PSS at some point, even at the track. With the 30k treadwear warranty there isn't that much to lose, assuming you have a use for street tires.

Anyway, back to the topic, forget the V12s. Between the RS-3 and Spec V2, I understand the RS-3 is more forgiving at the limit than the V2, but is probably trumped in every other way.
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      03-03-2013, 02:12 AM   #22
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does anyone here know that
te37sl 18x9.5 et22 (square set up) w/ hankook ventus v12 evo 265/35/18

will suit the 1m front without any rub,..

thanks.
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