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      02-12-2013, 10:21 AM   #23
RimasRS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yandy View Post
There's obviously going to be more vibrations and noise than stock. However, not as much as you may think. The car's still perfectly drivable, and harshness is really not bad. Going over bad stretches of road, potholes, will exaggerate it though, they're definitely not stock in that sense.
I know that even M3 bushings already gives more vibration and noises to the cabin. Im interested to which level it will increase?
Also Im wondering about long livity of aftermarket bushings...
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      02-13-2013, 01:31 AM   #24
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From the picture and the website it says the bushings are made by whiteline, I used to run a lot of their parts on my old subaru and they make quality parts. I am also curious about the NVH change after the install, good luck!
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      02-13-2013, 09:58 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RimasRS View Post
I know that even M3 bushings already gives more vibration and noises to the cabin.
This was certainly my expectation. Intuitively how could they not given how much stiffer they are than the originals? In fact though, I can't tell the difference in terms of NVH with the M3 bushings. When I made the change it was the only change I made at the time. Others who may have made changes to the rear bar, shocks or springs at the same time may have a different experience, but it may be from those other changes. A far bigger contributor to the NVH quality of your ride is your tires. NVH should not be a reason not to change your rear subframe bushings to the M3 bushings. I have no idea if this is true of plain urethane bushings though.
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      02-13-2013, 11:56 PM   #26
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Thanks for the input.

I have been paying particular attention to road conditions on certain stretches of road that I drive regularily to study how the car handles pre and post install. I have 2 particular sections in mind.

First one is a 45mph (55) straight section of road that makes the car dance as I really feel a lot of side to side articulation and rear end bounce over that section (really annoying).

The other and much more challenging one is a 90 degree right hand turn with a bump just before it. The exit of the turn is 3 lanes wide each direction (no island or curbing) and I try to split the first two lanes on the exit with a tight apex at the crosswalk. I drive it at 5 in the morning so no traffic and I shift down to 2nd gear just before the turn putting me at about 4 grand. Between the hard decelleration and the bump it really upsets the car and while the car still tracks through it pretty well now, it really unsettles and twists the rear end as the shocks rebound in what feels like a mid turn ballet resulting in what almost literally feels like a sideways landing shortly after the apex as the shocks and springs compress. It's a lot to ask out of this upgrade and will take a good set of coilovers (going to go with Ohlins R&T) to truely correct this, but I'm not going to upgrade those until after this is done and tested (and save some money after the oil cooler and brakes I just purchased). I should definitely get a good idea if the rear sub-frame is still twisting though.

On top of that is just the accellerations...good gawd does that thing shimmy around under heavy accelleration. Not sure what I'm putting to the rear wheels..guessing a around 400HP and at least just as much torque.
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      02-14-2013, 12:38 AM   #27
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Here is a pic of my drivers side front tire demonstrating what the car and tires are going through on this corner. This is with -1.5 degrees of camber and a cold tire pressure of 38psi. Don't know that it will be improved much after this upgrade..more to the point is that I am clearly pushing it. Good news...tires hold and it doesn't understeer much, but does a tad.

Edit, image was too big...

Last edited by SteveAZ; 02-14-2013 at 12:45 AM.
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      02-14-2013, 02:52 PM   #28
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When are you installing them? I want to hear this as well, I would much rather use a urethane bushing over OEM, as the rubber does brake down pretty quickly, especially with all the weather condition in MN.
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      02-14-2013, 03:32 PM   #29
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Quote:
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When are you installing them? I want to hear this as well, I would much rather use a urethane bushing over OEM, as the rubber does brake down pretty quickly, especially with all the weather condition in MN.
Assuming they'll be here early next week and will probably do them shortly there after...so probably 7-10 days.
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      02-14-2013, 04:28 PM   #30
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Holy crap...look what just arrived...that was fast. Might be able to install tomorrow...maybe!

They feel pretty firm but I'm able to get some deflection by hand, especially if I remove the bushings. No idea what the stockers are like til I remove them but will do a comparison.

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      02-14-2013, 04:41 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ View Post
Holy crap...look what just arrived...that was fast. Might be able to install tomorrow...maybe!

They feel pretty firm but I'm able to get some deflection by hand, especially if I remove the bushings. No idea what the stockers are like til I remove them but will do a comparison.

Awesome! Probably going to be getting these if you do not think they are too harsh.
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      02-14-2013, 04:49 PM   #32
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I knew they looked familiar, Whiteline is from Australia(i think). They been around and make Sway bars for 1er's
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      02-14-2013, 05:52 PM   #33
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How are you going to remove the stock bushings?

I was going to rent the HPA tool because I was planning to do m3 bushings but with the two piece whitelines it might not be necessary since it looks like removal of the stock bushings might be the toughest part of the install.
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      02-14-2013, 07:47 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ View Post
They feel pretty firm but I'm able to get some deflection by hand, especially if I remove the bushings.
Interesting. The multi-piece design should certainly make them easier to install. I presume you pull the core in last.

Can you pull the bushings completely apart and take a picture so we can see their internal construction?

Also, if they came with installation instructions, can you scan and post them?

Since there are no big washers in the kit I wonder what stops the core from shifting vertically in the bushings?

I am sure I am not alone in wondering how the install goes and how they work out.
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      02-14-2013, 08:26 PM   #35
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Here are the instructions from the whiteline site

http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/install_guides/Z5215.pdf
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      02-14-2013, 09:12 PM   #36
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No problem, these look very similar to the Powerflex and they do have the large washers on the front set of the bushings, just as Powerflex does. Asthetically the biggest difference between the Powerflex from what I can tell is the rear Powerflex are one piece, and the Powerflex fronts don't have holes drilled in them. So these may be a bit softer or it may be that the holes are to minimize noise and vibration...:shrug

I'm just going to use washers, a 4" pipe, and all thread to remove the stockers. Don't have to worry about destroying them so I may even re-evaluate that after I get a good look at them. These will obviously go in easier than M3 bushings and Powerflex because the rear Powerflex bushings are one piece as well.

Here is a link to a recent DIY

...and a couple more pics....
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      02-15-2013, 09:54 AM   #37
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Hi - could you please measure the outside diameter of the bushings? I trying to build a DIY removal tool.
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      02-15-2013, 01:46 PM   #38
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Quote:
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Hi - could you please measure the outside diameter of the bushings? I trying to build a DIY removal tool.
Too late, I just finished them...guess I could measure the old ones but frankly, you don't need a removal tool....this has been made too hard by people. It was pretty much a cake walk.




First two pics are obviously the mounted bushings but the third is my removal tool....hahaha...a 22mm 1/2" socket. Between that, a propane torch, a two jacks, it was really easy.

Frankly, based on my car, I don't know why this has been made out to be so hard, a bit time consuming...took me a bit under 4 hours but I was working alone and wasted an extra 45 min on the first side. Second side literally took me 45 minutes total.

Have to wait for the wife to get home to help me finish bleeding the brakes...took it for a short drive but there is still air in the lines as I couldn't get it all out myself.

Immediately notice a difference between stock, not while driving but while installing. When I lowered the first side of the subframe, I had to keep it supported by a jack so it didn't drop too far. When I was lowering the second side, the jack released before getting enough clearance and I had to push down on the subframe to get enough clearance. I'll post the steps next, I didn't take any more pics but this is pretty easy. If somebody local ends up wanting to do it...I'll help and do a detailed DIY.
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      02-15-2013, 02:37 PM   #39
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Steps I took to do this....

-Set rear parking brake
-Block front tires so car can't roll forward
-Remove ground terminal from battery (I'm paranoid of setting of an airbag or something)
-Jack up the rear of the car and support on blocks, best place to support is under rear jack spots
-Remove rear wheels
-Remove rear under body trays (guessing this is only needed for verts)
-Remove rear bracing (only for verts?)
-Remove rear diffuser (makes it easier to see, use the jacks, and remove exhaust)
-Remove cat back exhaust
-Disconnect rear brake lines (they are located on drivers side, will take a pick and post later)
-Remove brake sensor cables from their retaining clips...no need to unplug anything
-Remove e-brake lines from their retaining guides to create some slack...no need to un-attach them from calipers
-Use floor jack to raise control arm but leave access to lower shock mount
-Remove lower nut from shock
-Here is where I used 2 jacks, I put one under the control arm ( I used a quad lift that has a padded platform that worked very well). Put floor jack under rear control arm at shock mount and jack both of them up until the arm is compressed and that side of the car is still supported by the blocks.
-Remove the bolts and bracket for the front RSFB
-Remove the bolt and plate for the rear RSFB
-Slowly let the control arm down until you can remove the spring and you'll see you have plenty of remove to remove the bushings. Take the spring out...be careful...I don't want to read of anybody getting hurt or damaging their car because they released tension on the spring to fast.
-Now the fun part, leave the rear jack (my quad lift) under the control arm supporting it. Move the other jack to a good lift point (I'll try and take pics) near the front bushing.
-Put the 1/2" socket between the frame and bushing as shown
-Jack up both the control arm and that side of the RSF until you lift the car approx 1/4" off the support block
-Slowly and evenly heat the RSF around that bushing and watch the bottom of the bushing start start to appear
-As the car lowers itself back on to the block, jack it up another 1/4" and repeat until the bushing pops out.
-Viola, thoroughly grease the bushings ( I lubed the whole thing) and I found it easiest to put the top half in first with the metal bushing installed. Jack up the RSF to seat it (if needed) and then put the lower piece in place, I used a rubber mallet to get it started and then used the RSFB bolt and plate to seat it.
-Rinse and repeat until finished...not hard but be careful and don't burn anything. The gas tank is close by on the passenger side and don't burn your brake sensors or retaining clips.

Good luck

Having not seen the M3 bushings, I don't know if you can use this method...the Powerflex rear bushings will be a bit more of a challenge but you could use Rob's bar method to keep them aligned while compressing them.

Thanks to him for his DIY illustrating things...it was a nice reference.
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Last edited by SteveAZ; 02-25-2013 at 06:32 AM.
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      02-15-2013, 03:06 PM   #40
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wow that was quick.
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      02-15-2013, 03:18 PM   #41
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wow that was quick.
That's what my wife said....
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      02-15-2013, 03:22 PM   #42
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Props on a what appears to be a job well done. Thank you for the writeup and please keep us informed of your impressions as you get to drive it more.

One thing I think might help, that I have not seen mentioned in discussions on this topic, is the trick of placing your bushings in the freezer overnight to shrink them ever-so-slightly to ease installation. I have used that trick on press-fit things like bearings and ball joints with positive results. It seems to me that it should be a similar effect to using heat on the subframe, without the risk of fire.
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      02-15-2013, 03:23 PM   #43
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^^lol

Do you think that an indy mechanic (BMW e46 expert) could repeat your steps with Prothane bushes?

I want to get on the subframe bandwagon, but the labour cost has always been the biggest variable
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In-progress: e46 m3 trans mnt, e36M lip Wishlist: m3 susp, n55 eng mnt, headers, LSD, finn dif e60


"The 1-series is the last car that BMW engineered before the Germans, as a car-making culture, fell out of love with driving." - R&T 2013 135is
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      02-15-2013, 03:41 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Transporter View Post
Props on a what appears to be a job well done. Thank you for the writeup and please keep us informed of your impressions as you get to drive it more.

One thing I think might help, that I have not seen mentioned in discussions on this topic, is the trick of placing your bushings in the freezer overnight to shrink them ever-so-slightly to ease installation. I have used that trick on press-fit things like bearings and ball joints with positive results. It seems to me that it should be a similar effect to using heat on the subframe, without the risk of fire.
Thanks.....

As for the freezer...you're probably right, I use that technique to get my crankset bolts really tight on my race bikes so they don't squeak. However, the heat isn't used for install, only for removal and not bad, my stockers came out undamaged.

As for the question about the indy mechanic...it should be even quicker for them but I This would only take me 3 hours or less to do again...by myself and no lift...then again it depends on how they remove them. My technique obviously wasn't on a lift but may be able to be done with those jack stands

I don't like anyone touching my car...seems they $&#€ it up every time...especially if they used fire

I think Dack got his done for 300 Euros
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