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      02-12-2013, 12:34 AM   #1
mryakanisachoad
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Adding 2 stroke oil to gasoline.

Would adding a small amount of 2 cycle oil (like 1:100) be harmful to the n54 motor?

I've owned a few Porsches and we were always advised to use this method, especially for cars with turbochargers. I had a 930 and it became a maintenance requirement when ethanol was first introduced in winter fuel blends in the early 90's.

I've read a lot of literature which seem to conclude that ethanol is the cause of many of the problems with the n54.

Any chemical - mechanical engineers around here?

Thank you.
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      02-12-2013, 01:13 AM   #2
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No, I definitely would not consider this unless you want to start having problems with your injectors, potentially your HPFP and LPFP and your car is under warranty. You have an issue with any of those items and they test your fuel they are gonna be WTF? On top of that, what about the cats? I've heard of people doing this with high percentages of ethanol because ethanol pulls the moisture out of the seals but I don't think that is as much of an issue with todays motors.

Not a chemical or mechanical engineer, just my opinion based on my research thus far.
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      02-12-2013, 01:39 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ View Post
No, I definitely would not consider this...
I have a feeling that this subject has been discussed ad nauseum, but there is so much information on this board that it is sometimes overwhelming and time consuming for someone like me to sift through it.

Fuel additives can't just be bad and that's the end of the story. The only differences between branded gasolines is whatever stuff they add to the base, which all comes from the same refineries.

You mentioned the catalytic converter. I'm pretty certain the only thing that would be truly harmful to a cat would be metals, and most good 2 cycle oils don't contain metals.

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      02-12-2013, 01:53 AM   #4
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One of theories behind the injector failures is that when and HPFP went bad, oil from the HPFP made it in to the injectors and clogged them. How much truth is there to that.

As somebody that has experienced a leaky injector and had couple bad injectors, this is not something I would consider, especially because I haven't really seen any talk of it or data to suggest that seals are drying out and failing.

I don't think the lower percentages of ethanol most are seeing at the pump would merit anything of this nature. I also read quite a bit from people that are running as high a percentage as I am and much higher...haven't read of anybody adding oil to their fuel

Is there some merit to it...maybe, but I'd have to see a lot of data on it before considering anything of this nature...JMO
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      02-12-2013, 02:20 AM   #5
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+1 dont mess with injectors
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      02-12-2013, 02:40 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RimasRS View Post
+1 dont mess with injectors
I never had a problem with a fuel injector in the 930 turbo and that motor is (in)famous for being fussy. It ran at 7.0:1 compression lol. The valves shook themselves loose every 2000 miles or so but I never had a fuel delivery problem.

Jetronic is mechanical FI so maybe that would make a difference but I don't see how.

Does BMW have a rule about fuel additives in the owners manual?
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      02-12-2013, 03:22 AM   #7
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So, I busted out the 1 Coupe manual and there's no mention of fuel additives voiding warranty. Interestingly, there's additional language cautioning that using fuel with more than 10% ethanol will not void your warranty with respect to workmanship or material defects. However, the use of e85 will damage the motor and void warranty. Sort of conficting.

Just for reference, I checked the 5 series manual for the new f10. The language is similar with a few distinctions. For instance, the maximum amount of ethanol used cannot exceed 10%. The manual doesn't explicitly state that using higher than a 10% blend will void your warranty, only that unscheduled "maintenance" will be required. I assume they mean you that have to pay for this maintenance.

Here's an article from a couple years back which claims that ethanol blends damage motors and more specifically, fuel delivery systems.

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyl...514_058678.htm

So, I wonder if a little MMO would be good for these motors? Seems like it could be.
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      02-12-2013, 04:14 AM   #8
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I come from rx7' s and rx8's. I always premixed with all my rotary motors. It just helped lube everything up. I know its a different motor but I've never had problems with my cat converter or injectors. If I added to much it just smoked a little as it burned off. My motors actually ran smoother after I started premixing. I saw what the inside looked like with premix amd a few that didn't. It was night and day. The only thing I would worry aboit is the direct injection system... The pressure of the entire system is a hell of a lot higher then tje cats I've used premix in.
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      02-12-2013, 04:36 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mryakanisachoad View Post
I never had a problem with a fuel injector in the 930 turbo and that motor is (in)famous for being fussy. It ran at 7.0:1 compression lol. The valves shook themselves loose every 2000 miles or so but I never had a fuel delivery problem.

Jetronic is mechanical FI so maybe that would make a difference but I don't see how.

Does BMW have a rule about fuel additives in the owners manual?
Yes but the 930 didnt have direct injection which runs at 12000 psi if I remember right.

This is honestly not something that ive ever considered. No idea if it would cause issues.
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      02-12-2013, 04:41 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kleach18 View Post
I come from rx7' s and rx8's. I always premixed with all my rotary motors. It just helped lube everything up. I know its a different motor but I've never had problems with my cat converter or injectors. If I added to much it just smoked a little as it burned off. My motors actually ran smoother after I started premixing. I saw what the inside looked like with premix amd a few that didn't. It was night and day. The only thing I would worry aboit is the direct injection system... The pressure of the entire system is a hell of a lot higher then tje cats I've used premix in.
Are you a German national? I have to imagine a modern Otto Engine enthusiast is a pretty cool sub culture in Germany lol

In all the time I've spent in Germany, I don't ever recall seeing an rx8. But, maybe it's because I wasn't looking.

Anyway, thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge. It occurs to me that almost all the people who insist that oil should never be added to gas in a "modern" car, have no experience doing so. I'm not suggesting that you need to perform a process to understand the process.
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      02-12-2013, 04:51 AM   #11
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I know in AZ, during the summer months the ethanol content is increased...I thought it was up to 15% per the label on the pumps.

Also know that BMW has been known to test the ethanol content in cars with failed fuel components.

I'm not really interested in the political side of this issue...you read crap like this...

"Studies carried out jointly by auto and petroleum industries have shown that E15 automobile damage can come in the form of poor performance, loss of engine power due to loss of compression, and durability issues, he said. Overall, resulting engine repairs could cost anywhere from $2,000 to $6,000."

Gee, ya think there's an agenda there? Now if they said, engines that sit for extended periods of time with these blends are known to have more issues...

and then in the same article...

“The Energy Department conducted its own rigorous, thorough and peer-reviewed study of the impact of E15 fuel on current, conventional vehicle catalyst systems. The Energy Department study included an inspection of critical engine components, such as valves, and did not uncover unusual wear that would be expected to impact performance,” it said.

“The resulting Energy Department data showed no statistically significant loss of vehicle performance (emissions, fuel economy, and maintenance issues) attributable to the use of E15 fuel compared to straight gasoline.”

Source

I know from personal experience both statements have falsehoods.

My car runs quite a bit stronger on my mix and virtually every dyno I've seen. It also gets worse gas mileage...in this car probably because I won't keep my foot out of it...but I've noticed it in my other cars as well when we are running our "summer blend". Ethanol's energy content is lower, thus requires more fuel. If you have...oh I don't know, let's just say a faulty HPFP design and there is a big debate about the affects of ethanol on fuel delivery systems....hmmmmmm

My point..both sides have an agenda.

I definitely am much more careful about letting fuel sit for long periods of time, you really see the affects of that on small engine carbs in the form of clogged jets and sticking floats. Have yet to see anything disintegrate from an E15 mix though.

You read so much stuff...one guy said the reason there are issues is because the ethanol breaks the debris loose from the insides of the fuel station tanks and then dispenses it in to your vehicle. Really, what's that big filter you usually see inline with the gas pump do? I've dispensed plenty of fuel in two clear motorcycle race cans...never once said...damn, that fuel's got debris in it.

Another said it produces more GHG but then it's offset by the CO2 that feeds the corn plants...blah blah blah...

Yes, I know that it attracts moisture and that is why when your car sits for extended periods it starts a bit rougher and could also promote rust. Our cars have stainless steel lines from the HPFP to the injectors and use swage type fittings (no seals). The regulator and LPFP are crap...do I mind if I have to replace any of them...nope. I also know that alcohol absorbes moisture (think Heet...99% Isopropal alcohol), use it for that purpose all the time. Am I going to introduce oil in to my fuel system...nope.

I think a bigger issue with these cars is people buying them and then running crap fuel in them such as 87 octane because fuel prices went so high. I bought my car used and fought a few issues that I think may have pertained to that. Also know that my car had the newest rev of fuel pump in it and 4 (yes I said 4) of the newest injectors in it so I know they were fighting issues. I picked up where they left off...car runs great now..but I don't put crap fuel in it...however I do put E40 in it.

Pro's:
More power
Cheaper fuel (offset by worse gas mileage)
Cooler combustion temps
Did I mention more power?

Con's:
Have to fill up more often
Gotta put my thinkin cap on to get the mix right
Tire wear

Uncertainties:
Fuel system life span
Affects on carbon build up

I'm not saying you don't have a point about adding oil to your gas doesn't have some merit..dunno but I am saying I don't think I'd want the potential problems that it could cause.

BTW, I did have that exact conversation with a motorcycle mechanic that used to work for a factory team. He said he had experimented with E85 (poor man's race gas) and had also experimented with adding oil, he said the seals weren't really an issue he ran into, more the instability of the ethanol due to it's sensativity to environmental changes and the fact that non EFI engines couldn't compensate for that and he had to rejet all the time. However they did see an 8HP gain, huge for a 60hp motor. He gave up and went back to race gas despite the expense (it had really shot up in price).

Edit: One more point I forgot to include. Along the same lines about the alcohol attracting moisture...it used to be that gas caps didn't seal very well, thus it was easier for moisture to get in the tank especially in wetter climates, understandbly this issue would be exacerbated with alcohol in the tank and cause obvious issues. This isn't as much of an issue now because there are stricter requirements, probably more from an evaportation standpoint as this also contributes to poor air quality. Notice when you get your emissions done they do a gas cap check?
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      02-12-2013, 04:51 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
Yes but the 930 didnt have direct injection which runs at 12000 psi if I remember right.

This is honestly not something that ive ever considered. No idea if it would cause issues.
Yes, I think you're right about the fuel pressure figure. It's incredible to think about.
And, that pressure is the likely culprit for all the failures and/or blowing out the injectors, etc.

I think I just hate the idea of ethanol. It causes way more problems than it solves (corn ethanol). Food inflation is really harming America for no good reason.
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      02-12-2013, 04:58 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ View Post
I know in AZ, during the summer months the ethanol content is increased...I thought it was up to 15% per the label on the pumps.

Also know that BMW has been known to test the ethanol content in cars with failed fuel components.

I'm not really interested in the political side of this issue...you read crap like this...

"Studies carried out jointly by auto and petroleum industries have shown that E15 automobile damage can come in the form of poor performance, loss of engine power due to loss of compression, and durability issues, he said. Overall, resulting engine repairs could cost anywhere from $2,000 to $6,000."

Gee, ya think there's an agenda there? Now if they said, engines that sit for extended periods of time with these blends are known to have more issues...

and then in the same article...

“The Energy Department conducted its own rigorous, thorough and peer-reviewed study of the impact of E15 fuel on current, conventional vehicle catalyst systems. The Energy Department study included an inspection of critical engine components, such as valves, and did not uncover unusual wear that would be expected to impact performance,” it said.

“The resulting Energy Department data showed no statistically significant loss of vehicle performance (emissions, fuel economy, and maintenance issues) attributable to the use of E15 fuel compared to straight gasoline.”

Source

I know from personal experience both statements have falsehoods.

My car runs quite a bit stronger on my mix and virtually every dyno I've seen. It also gets worse gas mileage...in this car probably because I won't keep my foot out of it...but I've noticed it in my other cars as well when we are running our "summer blend". Ethanol's energy content is lower, thus requires more fuel. If you have...oh I don't know, let's just say a faulty HPFP design and there is a big debate about the affects of ethanol on fuel delivery systems....hmmmmmm

My point..both sides have an agenda.

I definitely am much more careful about letting fuel sit for long periods of time, you really see the affects of that on small engine carbs in the form of clogged jets and sticking floats. Have yet to see anything disintegrate from an E15 mix though.

You read so much stuff...one guy said the reason there are issues is because the ethanol breaks the debris loose from the insides of the fuel station tanks and then dispenses it in to your vehicle. Really, what's that big filter you usually see inline with the gas pump do? I've dispensed plenty of fuel in two clear motorcycle race cans...never once said...damn, that fuel's got debris in it.

Another said it produces more GHG but then it's offset by the CO2 that feeds the corn plants...blah blah blah...

Yes, I know that it attracts moisture and that is why when your car sits for extended periods it starts a bit rougher and could also promote rust. Our cars have stainless steel lines from the HPFP to the injectors and use swage type fittings (no seals). The regulator and LPFP are crap...do I mind if I have to replace any of them...nope. I also know that alcohol absorbes moisture (think Heet...99% Isopropal alcohol), use it for that purpose all the time. Am I going to introduce oil in to my fuel system...nope.

I think a bigger issue with these cars is people buying them and then running crap fuel in them such as 87 octane because fuel prices went so high. I bought my car used and fought a few issues that I think may have pertained to that. Also know that my car had the newest rev of fuel pump in it and 4 (yes I said 4) of the newest injectors in it so I know they were fighting issues. I picked up where they left off...car runs great now..but I don't put crap fuel in it...however I do put E40 in it.

Pro's:
More power
Cheaper fuel (offset by worse gas mileage)
Cooler combustion temps
Did I mention more power?

Con's:
Have to fill up more often
Gotta put my thinkin cap on to get the mix right
Tire wear

Uncertainties:
Fuel system life span
Affects on carbon build up

I'm not saying you don't have a point about adding oil to your gas doesn't have some merit..dunno but I am saying I don't think I'd want the potential problems that it could cause.

BTW, I did have that exact conversation with a motorcycle mechanic that used to work for a factory team. He said he had experimented with E85 (poor man's race gas) and had also experimented with adding oil, he said the seals weren't really an issue he ran into, more the instability of the ethanol due to it's sensativity to environmental changes and the fact that non EFI engines couldn't compensate for that and he had to rejet all the time. However they did see an 8HP gain, huge for a 60hp motor. He gave up and went back to race gas despite the expense (it had really shot up in price).

Holy cow this was incredibly well thought out and interesting post. Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences and knowledge.

-Rich
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      02-12-2013, 05:01 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mryakanisachoad View Post
Are you a German national? I have to imagine a modern Otto Engine enthusiast is a pretty cool sub culture in Germany lol

In all the time I've spent in Germany, I don't ever recall seeing an rx8. But, maybe it's because I wasn't looking.

Anyway, thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge. It occurs to me that almost all the people who insist that oil should never be added to gas in a "modern" car, have no experience doing so. I'm not suggesting that you need to perform a process to understand the process.
Not totally true in my case, but I am definitely no expert. I've had two strokes and four strokes...visions of the oil that collects on two stroke exhaust come to mind. Wouldn't want to see that on my oner.

Just dismanteled a 4 stroke engine with a bad cylinder and a ring in 6 pieces, found out the plating (Nikasil) is prone to wear...maybe I should mix a little oil in with that gas, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Those motors are run pretty hard (on E15 I might add) at 11.7 compression if I recall...run pretty damn strong. Or maybe a higher mix of ethanol to reduce EGTs....hmmmm, maybe I should try E30 with them.
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      02-12-2013, 05:07 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mryakanisachoad View Post
Holy cow this was incredibly well thought out and interesting post. Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences and knowledge.

-Rich
And this is the biggest falsehood of all.....

In reality, I know very little, I have just been doing a ton of reading these last few months. It can be very confusing because there are so many opposing view points. I welcome discussions like this because I learn just a little bit more.
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      02-12-2013, 05:27 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ View Post
And this is the biggest falsehood of all.....

In reality, I know very little, I have just been doing a ton of reading these last few months. It can be very confusing because there are so many opposing view points. I welcome discussions like this because I learn just a little bit more.
lol don't be so humble. It's obvious when somebody is faking it and you ain't faking it.

I recently read that Mazda is going to mass produce a new engine running at 14:1 compression. That's pretty cool and very violent for a daily driver. I wonder if they're going to be using some sort of unique injection system?

I've always been impressed with Mazda engineering and the way they modernize older technologies.

*edit. Here's a helpful link which explains Mazda's new engine technology. Seems pretty radical to me. Very impressive...

http://www.automotive-fleet.com/chan...x?prestitial=1

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      02-12-2013, 06:09 AM   #17
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Only Mazda I ever coveted was the twin turbo RX7 in the late 90's and early 2Ks, still like and respect those cars.

I'm really not much of a gear head, a bit more so lately.

I think many on here will tear that article apart...to me it read more like a Mazda ad than an editorial. They spoke of some of the technologies like "direct injection" and "variable sequential valve timing" like it was this new revolutionary products. "Faster combustion process", um doesn't that usually equal less torque? I want both...head snapping torque and when that runs out a lot of horsepower to bring it home. I had an S2K, I always felt like I was raping that thing! Vtech was amazing and fun, but a bit of a bore until I got there.

I found this to be a bit more of an interesting read as some of it obviously pertains directly to our cars and was written in 2010 and the technology was obviously being used long before that.

"Spraying fuel directly into a gasoline engine’s combustion chambers instead of its intake ports isn’t a new idea—the World War II ME109 German fighter plane used it. The Japanese-market Mitsubishi Galant was the first car to combine direct injection with computer-controlled injectors in 1996. Direct injection (DI) costs more than port injection because the fuel is sprayed at 1500–3000 psi rather than 50–100 psi, and the injectors must withstand the pressure and heat of combustion."

But I'll take the compression if we can support it with the octane fuels available to us.
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      02-12-2013, 06:36 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mryakanisachoad View Post
Are you a German national? I have to imagine a modern Otto Engine enthusiast is a pretty cool sub culture in Germany lol

Nope, just stationed over here for a few years.. I'm having my fun driving on the autobahn and seeing some exotic car museums..
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      02-12-2013, 12:03 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mryakanisachoad View Post
Yes, I think you're right about the fuel pressure figure. It's incredible to think about.
And, that pressure is the likely culprit for all the failures and/or blowing out the injectors, etc.

I think I just hate the idea of ethanol. It causes way more problems than it solves (corn ethanol). Food inflation is really harming America for no good reason.

Ethanol is as stupid as it gets, its just a subsidy for corn farmers.


I will say that when my injectors divebombed BMW tested the fuel in my tank for ethanol content.


Also, the few times I get stuck in Maine or Canada where 93 Octane isnt an option and im forced to add 91, the car doesnt run right for a week.

No idea why, but the whole thing doesnt feel right.






So im just a bit confused though, you want to add 2 stroke oil for lubrication purposes right? But wont that losen up deposits like techron does? Dont those deposits end up in your oil? Thats the logic ive heard behind only using fuel additives for the tank before your next oil change.


Also, at the pressures in the DI system a lot of compounds break down. So I would explicitly ask the oil manufacturers, but I guarantee that they have no idea as I cant think of a single DI lawnmower or chainsaw.
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      02-12-2013, 05:55 PM   #20
mryakanisachoad
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Quote:
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I will say that when my injectors divebombed BMW tested the fuel in my tank for ethanol
Yes, this is always part if their test plan. They're collecting this information for a reason. I think BMW is savvy enough to know that they can't publically pick a fight with the US government and the very powerful corn lobby.

That said, BMW's actions speak louder than words and those actions tell me that the company engineers know that ethanol is the cause of many of these fuel system failures.

Thank you for sharing your interesting perspective. !!
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      02-12-2013, 07:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
Ethanol is as stupid as it gets, its just a subsidy for corn farmers.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...obama-congress


As I said, I don't like the political side of this. But there are two sides to every story.

I really don't blanket statements of this mature, rarely are things that cut and dried.

I'd much rather support local farmers trying to keep their heads above water than big industry (foriegn and domestic) that are milking us for everything they can.

I too wish I had a 93 octane option, but we don't and you're right, my car runs like crap on 91 with nasty timing drops and reduced power. Wait a minute...I think I remember reading those exact claims by the petroleum and auto manufacturers industry in regards to ethanol.

I can see the auto industries point...they are having to meet tougher regulations for MPG and emissions and yet are being forced to run fuels with ethanol that are counter intuitive to reaching those goals. I get it, I just do not wish to trun a blind eye to either issue.
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      02-12-2013, 08:50 PM   #22
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To the OP:

I have been running two stroke oil for 4-5 years. I used it in my B5 A4, 09 135i and still used in my E46's. 1oz per 5 gal of gas. It keeps the fuel system lubricated from that Corn crap.
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