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      02-13-2013, 09:14 AM   #23
roundel335
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So have none of you ever swapped out your intercooler? There's already oil in the intake tract from the crankcase ventilation system. There's absolutely no need to put 2-stroke oil in your fuel, and with the direct injection, I'd be very concerned about increased carbon buildup on the intake valves, not to mention messing with those expensive piezo-electric injectors.
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      02-14-2013, 07:45 PM   #24
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Ive run additives that are well proven, not the snake oil NASCAR labeled garbage. Stuff that has a real chemical basis behind it.

TCW-3 (dont run an ash type two-stroke, as it will foul things) will burn clean, keep some surfaces clean, and serve as an upper cylinder lubricant. One of the issues with HPFPs and such things IMO is that there is insufficient lubricity in most fuels. This is a bigger deal with diesel fuels, but Ive done enough monitoring of fuel pump noise to identify that some adds work and others dont.

But there is another fundamental issue here. The mechanistics of additves on normal engines is different than on DI. There is no valve face to spray on or to keep clean. Injection is straight in, so there isnt really a pre-heating or flashing off here.

I have after a fw tanks of TCW-3, noticed a fine oily residue inside the tailpipes of my 135i. This indicates that some of the less volatile components in the TCW-3 did not burn off, and condensed in some form at the tailpipe.

We have confirmed elsewhere that Redline SI-1 will survive the combustion process at some level, and so has a chance to go over the valves and other surfaces in DI engines. SI-1 also acts like an UCL, though surely not as good as something like TCW-3 or FP60.

My choice is to run a maintenance dose (less is more!) of SI-1 on a regular basis. There is no shocking to the system, it keeps things routinely clean and lubricated, etc...

I have run MMO, FP60 ad FP plus, Schaeffer's soy ultra and a few others in tanks of fuel. In other cars I have noticed positive benefits. In this car, somewhat different than my others, I have not noted any changes, but this is also a new car with different design.

Still IMO a maintenance dose of a good additive is smart.
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      02-14-2013, 10:18 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by JHZR2 View Post
We have confirmed elsewhere that Redline SI-1 will survive the combustion process at some level, and so has a chance to go over the valves and other surfaces in DI engines. SI-1 also acts like an UCL, though surely not as good as something like TCW-3 or FP60.

My choice is to run a maintenance dose (less is more!) of SI-1 on a regular basis. There is no shocking to the system, it keeps things routinely clean and lubricated, etc...
I recently used the redline SI-1 at the recommendation of a local mechanic that works exclusively on German cars.

I told him I had a little bit of stumbling and what almost felt like a slight misfire with no codes. I previously had misfires with codes for other issues that I had corrected but still felt a bit of hesitation. I was probably nit picking a bit but I pay pretty close attention to this car. Anyway, his recommendation was to put in 3 bottles of redline to a full tank...I didn't really want it sitting in my tank or having to drive that long with it in there so I waited until I was less than a quarter tank and put in one bottle. I then drove it easy (didn't notice any issues with it) until I was at about 5 miles remaining per the gauge and filled the tank. Did this for two tanks with the intention of doing a third but have noticed things are much smoother and that slight misfire feeling is gone. Actually, the car is running the best it's ever run after getting it approx. 5K ago. It had 25k on it when I bought it and who knows what kind of cheap crap got ran through it.

It says a bottle to a full tank every 3k...I was also consider a maintenance dose...what are you running and how often....have no problem with adding some redline every tank...2 stroke oil...not so much

I have an oil housing and ER sport cooler on the way...since I have to take the intake manifold off...will probably do the valve cleaning at that time as well. Will be interesting to see how things look and then see how they look 20k miles later running an OCC, ethanol, meth, and redline...maybe they'll actually stay fairly clean.

BTW, prior to running the redline...I had done the techron additive to 2 full tanks of fuel...one bottle each...no improvement but obviously used a different technique.
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      02-14-2013, 10:34 PM   #26
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My 2 cents. The DI engines are basically a copy of diesel engines with the LPFP, HPFH and high pressure injectors. Extra lubrication is not going to hurt a thing, try clogging a diesel injector at that pressure with any kind of mix (diesel might as well be thinned oil), other than running too much ethanol and not enough lube I doubt there's any damage there. As for oil going into the combustion chamber and cat well that's a bad thing. Carbon, carbon deposits get left behind on burned oil. Enough burned oil and your cat will clog, I'm the lucky driver of a 01 Corolla beater car with a 1zz-fe engine and that community shows up with clogged cats all the time with engines burning a quart of oil every gas fill up.
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      02-14-2013, 11:06 PM   #27
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Hum....interesting read.
The idea of lubricating the alcohol rich gas is a very good idea I have to admit.
And yes believe it or not, gas is a lubricant.
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      02-14-2013, 11:10 PM   #28
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I've read a lot of literature which seem to conclude that ethanol is the cause of many of the problems with the n54..
Where? N54's LOVE ethanol...
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      02-14-2013, 11:13 PM   #29
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Anyway, his recommendation was to put in 3 bottles of redline to a full tank...

...I had done the techron additive to 2 full tanks of fuel...one bottle each...no improvement but obviously used a different technique.

Redline and techron's cleaning additive is PEA (an amine or nitrogen containing compound), really the same stuff. Redline may be a bit more concentrated, I havent looked at MSDSs in a while... and some of the techron stuff sold at places like walmart is a lowest bidder version that has less cleaner.

Still, 3 bottles of additive in a tank is a LOT!!!
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      02-14-2013, 11:14 PM   #30
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Hum....interesting read.
The idea of lubricating the alcohol rich gas is a very good idea I have to admit.
And yes believe it or not, gas is a lubricant.
it sure is, but the lubricity is fairly poor unless designed for the specifics of the current chemistries that exist.

Look at diesels, ULSD removed a lot of the lubricity when it took out the sulfur-bound heterocycles.

But yeah, design your component right and it can be lubricated by most anything.
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      02-14-2013, 11:16 PM   #31
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Where? N54's LOVE ethanol...
Maybe, but ethanol above 10% can have very adverse effects with polymers.

One of the things found was that some fuels were doped with too much ethanol. When subsidized, its per gallon price was lower than gas, so some stations surely added a bit too much to drop their cost and maximize their profit.

It may boost octane, but if it dissolves stuff in its path, no good...
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      02-14-2013, 11:36 PM   #32
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Maybe, but ethanol above 10% can have very adverse effects with polymers.

One of the things found was that some fuels were doped with too much ethanol. When subsidized, its per gallon price was lower than gas, so some stations surely added a bit too much to drop their cost and maximize their profit.

It may boost octane, but if it dissolves stuff in its path, no good...
There's definately a handful of N54 guys out there that's ran this stuff almost pure and not just a blend of E85/Gas for a year straight with no noticeable affects. Alot of people have some it's good to run a straight tank of 93 and cleaner to make things clean again but I haven't seen any more affects from it than just the normal E5-E15 93 octane gas at the pumps so far. I know by boat hates the stuff and deposits the lining of the fuel lines in the jets every year so I know how nasty and quick it can be.
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      02-15-2013, 12:46 AM   #33
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Ok, great. Thing is, if e15 or e85 were so benign, every manual from more or less every car, truck and gas powered device wouldnt have a warning to not exceed 10%. But they do.

It's why e15 was killed, amongst other reasons.

I get the benefits of ethanol... But from an engineering perspective, it's not benign.
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      02-15-2013, 06:48 AM   #34
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[quote=BrokenVert;13468496]Ethanol is as stupid as it gets, its just a subsidy for corn farmers.


It won't last forever, the Ogallala Aquifer is being drained for irrigation to provide corn for ethanol for cars. Is that ironic or what?
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      02-15-2013, 10:13 AM   #35
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silly question why not adding Mavins Mystery Oil?
Works just as well as two stroke oil? And is actually designed to be run though 4 strokes.
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      02-15-2013, 10:54 AM   #36
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As for Ethanol, all i know is that back when they first introduced 10% ethanol, every car i owned starting complaining. rough idles, bad starts, worse performance. And i jsut found out if you leave your italian beater in the garage for a month and then try to crank it, the car slapps you in the face and then farts. man does that hurt.
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      02-15-2013, 11:25 AM   #37
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Where? N54's LOVE ethanol...
Mostly from BMW engineers. I'm sure it's a good time to use e85 as some cheap substitute for race gas but that stuff is poison to motors not designed to use it.
I would also hope that the people running almost pure ethanol are mixing in a ton of lubricating oil.
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      02-15-2013, 11:37 AM   #38
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^True about ethanol being poison for engines not equipped for it, particularly those that the manufacturer specifically states that they are not equipped for flex-fuels (ethanol mix). Anything that doesn't have internal seals or other parts that are made of materials that are deteriorated/negatively affected by alcohol of any sort are going to have problems long-term. Adding lube is not going to offset the corrosive effects. Plus, ethanol is hygroscopic and is soluble with water, so without some way to control things like water in the fuel (from condensation or other sources), it's possible that injectors could incur corrosion damage.
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      02-15-2013, 11:40 AM   #39
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SI B 13 01 06
Fuel System & Control September 2006
Technical Service

This Service Information bulletin supersedes S.I. B13 01 06 dated March 2006.

designates changes to this revision

SUBJECT
Alcohol Fuel Blends in BMW Vehicles


MODEL
All with gasoline engines


SITUATION
Fuel blends containing a high percentage (above 10%) of alcohol, mainly ethanol, are becoming more commercially available. Customers inquire about the possibility of using alcohol fuels (e.g. E85) in BMW vehicles.

INFORMATION
Fuels containing up to and including 10% of ethanol or other oxygenates with up to 2.8% oxygen by weight, that is, 15% MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether) or 3% methanol plus an equivalent amount of co-solvent, will not void the applicable warranties with respect to defects in materials or workmanship.

Although, usage of such alcohol fuel blends may result in drivability, starting, and stalling problems due to reduced volatility and lower energy content of the fuel. Those drivability problems may be especially evident under certain environmental conditions, such as: high or low ambient temperatures and high altitude.

Only specially adapted vehicles (FFV - Flexible Fuel Vehicles) can run on high alcohol fuel blends. BMW, for the various technical and environmental reasons explained below, does not offer FFV models.

Usage of E85, or any other high alcohol content blend (e.g. E30) in BMW vehicles, will cause various drivability complaints (cold start problems, stalling, reduced performance, poor fuel economy, etc.), may cause excessive emissions, and may cause irreversible damage to engine, emission control and fuel delivery systems due to incompatibility of materials with alcohols.

General Notes Regarding E85 Fuel.

E85 fuel contains 85% (by volume) of ethanol and 15% of gasoline. Ethanol can be produced chemically from ethylene or biologically from grains, agricultural wastes, or any organic material containing starch or sugar. In the US, ethanol is mainly produced from corn and is classified as a renewable fuel.

Similar to gasoline, ethanol contains hydrogen and carbon; with additional oxygen molecules build into its chemical chain. This chemical structure makes ethanol's burning process slightly cleaner compared to the gasoline (lower tailpipe emissions).

On the other hand, due to lower carbon content, ethanol provides 27% less energy (for identical volume) then gasoline, resulting in the reduced fuel economy of E85 vehicles (approximately 22% higher consumption). Increased fuel consumption requires the appropriately enlarged fuel tank capacities (usually 30% increase), and the specific DME calibrations for the E85 lower Stoichiometric air/fuel ratio (10 compared to 14.7 for gasoline engines).

E85 fuel volatility is typically lower then gasoline (RVP 6-10 psi, compared to 8-15 psi for gasoline). Lower fuel volatility will reduce vehicle evaporative emissions, but it may cause cold starting problems especially with lower ambient temperatures.

Under certain environmental conditions, mainly lower ambient temperatures, ethanol separates from gasoline/alcohol mixture and absorbs water. The ethanol absorbed water molecules are heavier then gasoline or ethanol, they remain at the bottom of fuel tank and when introduced into combustion process they tend to form an extremely lean mixture resulting in misfire, rough idle and cold starting problems.

Certain materials, commonly used with gasoline are totally incompatible with alcohols. When these materials come in contact with ethanol, they may dissolve in the fuel, which may damage engine components and may result in poor vehicle drivability.

Some metals (e.g. zinc, brass, lead, aluminum) become degraded by long exposure to ethanol fuel blends. Also, some nonmetallic materials used in automotive industry such as: natural rubber, polyurethane, cork gasket material, leather, polyvinyl chloride (PVC), polyamides, methyl-methacrylate plastics, and certain thermo & thermoset plastics degrade when in contact with fuel ethanol.

In order to safely and effectively operate a motor vehicle running on E85, the vehicle must be compatible with alcohol use. Some manufacturers have developed vehicles called FFV (Flexible Fuel Vehicle) that can operate on any blend of ethanol and gasoline (from 0% ethanol and 100% gasoline, up to 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline). Ethanol FFVs are similar to gasoline vehicles, with main differences in materials used in fuel management and delivery systems, and DME control module calibrations. In some cases, also E85 vehicles require special lubricating oils.

Aftermarket conversions of gasoline-powered vehicles to ethanol-fueled vehicles, although possible, are not recommended due to internal materials and DME software incompatibility, as well, as the high costs of conversion.

In order to correctly diagnose various drivability complaints caused by fuel blends with a high level of ethanol content, BMW is providing you with an alcohol detection test tool (PN83 30 0 420 667).

Refer to S.I. B13 04 06 for operating instructions.

Distribution of the following tool will be through the Automatic Tool Shipment Program. Additional tools may be purchased through your PDC.



Alcohol Detection Test Tool
Order PN 83 30 0 420 667

WARRANTY INFORMATION
Components damage/malfunctions, or any drivability problems caused by use of fuels containing more then 10% ethanol (or other oxygenates with more then 2.8% oxygen by weight) will not be covered under BMW warranties with respect to defects in materials or workmanship.
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      02-15-2013, 01:03 PM   #40
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Quote:
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silly question why not adding Mavins Mystery Oil?
Works just as well as two stroke oil? And is actually designed to be run though 4 strokes.
You mean Marvel Mystery Oil?

I have been a user of that, along with other additives for a long time. MMO can serve as an UCL, with some cleaning capability, but I have my doubts about it being able to survive the combustion process and loop-around to function properly in a DI engine, which is fundamentally different in how adds will function.

TCW-3 will better serve as an UCL, and a PEA-based cleaner will better survive combustion, which is why both are preferred. MMO is a bit more volatile and will not provide the same effect. It isnt bad stuff and better than nothing, but I prefer to optimize for my situation at hand...
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      02-15-2013, 04:17 PM   #41
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Quote:
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Mostly from BMW engineers. I'm sure it's a good time to use e85 as some cheap substitute for race gas but that stuff is poison to motors not designed to use it.
I would also hope that the people running almost pure ethanol are mixing in a ton of lubricating oil.
The same argument can be made about additives or 2 stroke oil in a car not meant for it as well....

I've been running E-85 mixtures in a ton of vehicles over the years without issue. All modern cars are designed to handle a small amount of ethanol from the factory already.

Show me where it says in the owners manual to add oil to your gas and I'll believe you that the car was designed for it...

you can't. That's the same reason people tune their cars with higher levels of ethanol. Everyone has their own experience with different combos, but you come off in this thread acting as if ethanol is the end of the world. Ethanol is here to stay. But you are more than welcome to keep adding random oils and additives to your engine to combat it if you want.
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      02-15-2013, 04:39 PM   #42
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The same argument can be made about additives or 2 stroke oil in a car not meant for it as well....

I've been running E-85 mixtures in a ton of vehicles over the years without issue. All modern cars are designed to handle a small amount of ethanol from the factory already.

Show me where it says in the owners manual to add oil to your gas and I'll believe you that the car was designed for it...

you can't. That's the same reason people tune their cars with higher levels of ethanol. Everyone has their own experience with different combos, but you come off in this thread acting as if ethanol is the end of the world. Ethanol is here to stay. But you are more than welcome to keep adding random oils and additives to your engine to combat it if you want.
You're a patronizing little guy, huh? I'm not "acting" anything.

I already showed you where in the manual it says using over 10% ethanol kills your warranty. I also showed you where gas additives don't void your warranty.
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      02-15-2013, 04:44 PM   #43
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The same argument can be made about additives or 2 stroke oil in a car not meant for it as well....

I've been running E-85 mixtures in a ton of vehicles over the years without issue. All modern cars are designed to handle a small amount of ethanol from the factory already.

Show me where it says in the owners manual to add oil to your gas and I'll believe you that the car was designed for it...

you can't. That's the same reason people tune their cars with higher levels of ethanol. Everyone has their own experience with different combos, but you come off in this thread acting as if ethanol is the end of the world. Ethanol is here to stay. But you are more than welcome to keep adding random oils and additives to your engine to combat it if you want.

No. Alcohols are known for their solvent behaviors and their incompatability with certain materials. Also, they are present in major quantity (10, 15, 30, 85%). An additive is in the tank at a minute trace amount, with a ratio of 800:1 or less in some cases.

Apples and oranges.

Not scholarly, but here is a read:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...-damage-engine

And another:
http://washingtonexaminer.com/study-...rticle/2520078
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      02-15-2013, 04:52 PM   #44
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Quote:
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You're a patronizing little guy, huh? I'm not "acting" anything.

I already showed you where in the manual it says using over 10% ethanol kills your warranty. I also showed you where gas additives don't void your warranty.
Ethanol over 10% is not going to "kill" your warranty. The manufacture states that you can use up to 10% ethanol in a newer vehicle. They are merely stating that if you chose to use more than that, then they can not be held liable for their workmanship on a part they set at handling up to 10%.

Same thing can be said about modifying the car in any other way as well. If I tune the car for more HP, the manufacture wont honor a warranty on parts they made to only handle a certain limit they designed.

By no way does that mean ethanol is not safe. It just means the ones who chose to use more of it should also take into consideration of what they are getting into. Almost every single gas station has up to 10% ethanol in the gas now. If lubrication was such a big deal, as you state, then you would see every news station in the country promoting 2 stroke oil mixtures... lol
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