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      04-12-2013, 01:06 AM   #1
gs/e60/1m?
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Caster; camber & toe

I would like to know what the caster figures are on a stock 1M.
What's the best compromise for street and light track use both camber and toe wise.
At the moment I have -2.00 in the front and -1.45 in the back. Toe is 0.01 .

Thanks for the feedback
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      04-14-2013, 07:00 AM   #2
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You have camber plates the car?

Make a mark for street and one for track. Put the camber in before the track day. I would run at least 2.5 on the track.

On my old m3 i ran 3.5 for autox and about 2 on the street.

There should be a ton on caster on the car already. I don't have a y data on that from my car due to it running in stock.
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      04-14-2013, 11:19 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3kerry View Post
You have camber plates the car? YES

Make a mark for street and one for track. Done streetwise Put the camber in before the track day. I would run at least 2.5 on the track. What do you do about toe when the camber has been changed and how does it effect the behavior of the car

On my old m3 i ran 3.5 for autox and about 2 on the street.

There should be a ton on caster on the car already. I don't have a y data on that from my car due to it running in stock.
In case you should do an alignment could you let me know what the stock figures are

Thanks
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      04-14-2013, 04:22 PM   #4
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I have those at home
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      04-14-2013, 07:22 PM   #5
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Very interested to learn more from this thread. My camber plates will be arriving soon hopefully and I was thinking to start with 2.0 camber and 0 toe, no track in the horizon.
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      04-14-2013, 09:41 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
Very interested to learn more from this thread. My camber plates will be arriving soon hopefully and I was thinking to start with 2.0 camber and 0 toe, no track in the horizon.
I'm running the same Vorshlag plates you'll be getting with -2.0 front and -2.0 back and stock toe settings. The car handles amazingly well on the street during normal and "aggressive" driving. Excellent turn-in and not a hint of understeer.
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      04-15-2013, 08:12 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EIN M View Post
I'm running the same Vorshlag plates you'll be getting with -2.0 front and -2.0 back and stock toe settings. The car handles amazingly well on the street during normal and "aggressive" driving. Excellent turn-in and not a hint of understeer.
Thanks for the feedback EIN M, is your car's suspension and wheel-tire set up stock as well?
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      04-15-2013, 01:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gs/e60/1m? View Post
I would like to know what the caster figures are on a stock 1M.
What's the best compromise for street and light track use both camber and toe wise.
At the moment I have -2.00 in the front and -1.45 in the back. Toe is 0.01 .

Thanks for the feedback
Are you getting -2 without camber plates?
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      04-15-2013, 02:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahlzeit View Post
Are you getting -2 without camber plates?
No got the vorshlag plates recently installed. Nice stuff
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      04-15-2013, 04:06 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
Thanks for the feedback EIN M, is your car's suspension and wheel-tire set up stock as well?
Stock size Super Sports on stock wheels. KW v3 coilovers + 10mm spacers all around.
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      04-15-2013, 05:19 PM   #11
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Rudi... here is an old post with the alignment specs of a 1M vs the M3. I think this will help you out...

Original thread....
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=736368



I remember we all talked about the 1M alignment specs before. I think it was 1Addict member: Drivehard who provided some hard numbers. I would search from his post on it. I will look too for it!


UPDATE... here is Drivehard 's post... post #3...

1M versus M3 stock suspension settings
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...t=1M+alignment


Drivehard wrote:

I did some searching and came up with theses facts.

I compared a 1M and an e92 M3 ( both w/18" wheels) (both w/o active steering)

for a 1M these are the Factory specs:

Ride Height (front)...........600mm +40mm or -20mm
Ride Height (Rear)...........592mm +40mm or -20mm

Rear Camber...................-1*45' +0*12' or -0*12'
toe (left or right)..............0*05' +0*03' or -0*03'

Front Camber...................-1*20' +0*12' or -0*12'
toe (left or right)...............0*05' +0*03' or -0*03'
total toe..........................0*10' +0*05' or -0*05'

The only difference for the M3 is the following

front camber is..................-1*10' +0*20' or -0*20'


The above numbers are in Degrees and Minutes *= degrees, ' = minutes
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      04-16-2013, 12:42 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
Rudi... here is an old post with the alignment specs of a 1M vs the M3. I think this will help you out...

Original thread....
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=736368



I remember we all talked about the 1M alignment specs before. I think it was 1Addict member: Drivehard who provided some hard numbers. I would search from his post on it. I will look too for it!


UPDATE... here is Drivehard 's post... post #3...

1M versus M3 stock suspension settings
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...t=1M+alignment


Drivehard wrote:

I did some searching and came up with theses facts.

I compared a 1M and an e92 M3 ( both w/18" wheels) (both w/o active steering)

for a 1M these are the Factory specs:

Ride Height (front)...........600mm +40mm or -20mm
Ride Height (Rear)...........592mm +40mm or -20mm

Rear Camber...................-1*45' +0*12' or -0*12'
toe (left or right)..............0*05' +0*03' or -0*03'

Front Camber...................-1*20' +0*12' or -0*12'
toe (left or right)...............0*05' +0*03' or -0*03'
total toe..........................0*10' +0*05' or -0*05'

The only difference for the M3 is the following

front camber is..................-1*10' +0*20' or -0*20'


The above numbers are in Degrees and Minutes *= degrees, ' =
minutes
Yes thanks David those where the same figures that showed at the wheel shop were I had the alignment done.

But...... I also would like to know the CASTER figures on a stock 1M and that's what was not showing on the sheet.

Putting on adjustable camber plates and not having the stock numbers to compare is what annoys me ....a bit lol.
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      04-16-2013, 08:14 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gs/e60/1m? View Post
Yes thanks David those where the same figures that showed at the wheel shop were I had the alignment done.

But...... I also would like to know the CASTER figures on a stock 1M and that's what was not showing on the sheet.

Putting on adjustable camber plates and not having the stock numbers to compare is what annoys me ....a bit lol.
With adjustable plates, you have far more adjustment range for camber than for caster. In any case, you want to maximize caster.

Neil
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      04-16-2013, 11:36 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
With adjustable plates, you have far more adjustment range for camber than for caster. In any case, you want to maximize caster.

Neil
Q.
Neil, you wrote earlier in an other post that you changed the camber for track use and it was an easy thing to do. I presume your toe was set for street use along with the camber?
By changing your camber settings it will per definition also change your toe.
This change in toe settings is something you can not adjust at the track without the proper tools or i'm I missing out on something here?

Currently I have +7°22min caster but I can't compare with the stock set up and they don't show on the BMW specification sheet.

Thanks for any feedback on the matter.

I'm still in the learning process in case you shouldn't noticed
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      04-16-2013, 12:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gs/e60/1m?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
With adjustable plates, you have far more adjustment range for camber than for caster. In any case, you want to maximize caster.

Neil
Q.
Neil, you wrote earlier in an other post that you changed the camber for track use and it was an easy thing to do. I presume your toe was set for street use along with the camber?
By changing your camber settings it will per definition also change your toe.
This change in toe settings is something you can not adjust at the track without the proper tools or i'm I missing out on something here?

Currently I have +722min caster but I can't compare with the stock set up and they don't show on the BMW specification sheet.

Thanks for any feedback on the matter.

I'm still in the learning process in case you shouldn't noticed
I came in here to empathize this.

Get your car on a rack, set it and forget it. Changing back and forth from street to track will change toe and you'll never get an official/exact -3* camber (or whatever you want)

As well, whoever said running -2 and not getting understeer? That's a low number.

I run -2.3 via shims and still get a ton of understeer and outside wear on the tire. Running 0 toe will drastically increase turn in.


As far as caster, there is not official number but the farther you can get the wheel up front the better turn in you can achieve
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      04-16-2013, 12:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
I came in here to empathize this.

Get your car on a rack, set it and forget it. Changing back and forth from street to track will change toe and you'll never get an official/exact -3* camber (or whatever you want)

As well, whoever said running -2 and not getting understeer? That's a low number.

I run -2.3 via shims and still get a ton of understeer and outside wear on the tire. Running 0 toe will drastically increase turn in.


As far as caster, there is not official number but the farther you can get the wheel up front the better turn in you can achieve
+1.

I used to change camber/toe back and forth for street and track, but haven't done so for years.

I find I get reasonable tire wear running 3 degrees of camber up front so long as I'm at 0 toe. It's the combination of camber and toe-out that chews up tires.

Neil
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      04-16-2013, 04:10 PM   #17
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Thanks guys....... thats all I wanted to know......for now
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      05-12-2013, 07:23 PM   #18
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Sport Auto's Super Test Data on 1M Factory Alignment Settings

I did buy the Sport Auto's issue including 1M Super Test back in July/2011 and still keeping it and checking data time to time as a reference. Today, I noticed that they also provided "achsgeometrie" (wheel alignment) data of the bone stock 1M that they tested there (at page 22), so I thought I better post these numbers in this recent thread since Sport Auto's printed data are usually more precise than most others.

It's in German of course, so I used an online translator to understand it but mostly the numbers tell what they are about. German speakers please correct or confirm if you deem it necessary.

First, the "measured value" of their test car, then the "setting range according to manufacturer":

Measured Value:

Front Axle: Nachlauf (caster?) 6°54', Spur (toe?) 0°32',
Sturz (camber?) -1°36'

Rear Axle: Spur (toe?) 0°20', Sturz (camber?) -1°19'

Settings Range According to Manufacturer:

Front Axle: Caster from 6°50' up to 7°50', Toe from 0°02' up to 0°18' and camber from -0°55' up to -1°45'

Rear Axle: Toe from 0°02' up to 0°18' and camber from -1°33' up to -1°58'

I double checked above numbers in order not to make an error, those I posted above are the printed numbers in that issue.

Hope this helps to the purpose of this thread.
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Last edited by ozinaldo; 05-12-2013 at 07:36 PM.
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      05-12-2013, 07:41 PM   #19
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Oz - what do you plan on setting camber/toe when you get your camber plates?
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      05-12-2013, 07:53 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ayao View Post
Oz - what do you plan on setting camber/toe when you get your camber plates?
I honestly don't know for sure yet. Thanks to the continuing delay from HP Autowerks (or Vorshlag) I still have plenty of time to figure it out though I plan to ask Harold's expertise on it as a form of friendly compensation as well as the workshop technician's advice.

On principal caster must be as high as it gets, while camber will be anywhere between 1.5 to 2.0 as a starter (I tend to go for -2.0 first), toe maybe 0 or close to 0. I didn't decide if I should touch the rears also at first attempt or not. Street/canyon/back road and highway driven car with everything stock suspension/chassis wise other than the stock size PSS set.

Once I drive the car on a variety of roads with the new setting I will know for sure which values I should go back and change to adapt my conditions and driving. I don't want or need major changes for now, just a bit more front end bite, better turn in without compromising the rest of the attributes of the car. The rear could be a bit more planted as well but that's mostly due to combined effect of lack of down force and abundance of torque.

I will also learn what is needed on the stock car better next week since there will be a surprise BMW Speed Day on a small local track (used to be a Formula 3000 race track in the past they say, not in ideal shape and doesn't have good length or straights but that's what they have). Registered my name to have a chance to drive my car with some professionals and to have some fun. Only M cars and BMW motorcycles invited.

I also hope to receive some good advice from Forum heavy weights
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2012 BMW 1M: TECH: Evolve Race+N55mids, Evolve IC, Michelin PSS, ER cp, aFe filter, CDVx, Vorshlag camber plates, P3Cars, OCC EXTERIOR: trunk spoiler, blacklines, black grills, IND goodies INTERIOR: Alcantara steering wheel, steel pedals, custom mats, MPower e-brake.

Last edited by ozinaldo; 05-12-2013 at 08:15 PM.
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      05-14-2013, 11:41 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
I did buy the Sport Auto's issue including 1M Super Test back in July/2011 and still keeping it and checking data time to time as a reference. Today, I noticed that they also provided "achsgeometrie" (wheel alignment) data of the bone stock 1M that they tested there (at page 22), so I thought I better post these numbers in this recent thread since Sport Auto's printed data are usually more precise than most others.

It's in German of course, so I used an online translator to understand it but mostly the numbers tell what they are about. German speakers please correct or confirm if you deem it necessary.

First, the "measured value" of their test car, then the "setting range according to manufacturer":

Measured Value:

Front Axle: Nachlauf (caster?) 6°54', Spur (toe?) 0°32',
Sturz (camber?) -1°36'

Rear Axle: Spur (toe?) 0°20', Sturz (camber?) -1°19'

Settings Range According to Manufacturer:

Front Axle: Caster from 6°50' up to 7°50', Toe from 0°02' up to 0°18' and camber from -0°55' up to -1°45'

Rear Axle: Toe from 0°02' up to 0°18' and camber from -1°33' up to -1°58'

I double checked above numbers in order not to make an error, those I posted above are the printed numbers in that issue.

Hope this helps to the purpose of this thread.
Great! Thanks Oz
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      05-14-2013, 12:59 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
First, the "measured value" of their test car, then the "setting range according to manufacturer":

Measured Value:

Front Axle: Nachlauf (caster?) 6°54', Spur (toe?) 0°32',
Sturz (camber?) -1°36'

Rear Axle: Spur (toe?) 0°20', Sturz (camber?) -1°19'

Settings Range According to Manufacturer:

Front Axle: Caster from 6°50' up to 7°50', Toe from 0°02' up to 0°18' and camber from -0°55' up to -1°45'

Rear Axle: Toe from 0°02' up to 0°18' and camber from -1°33' up to -1°58'

I double checked above numbers in order not to make an error, those I posted above are the printed numbers in that issue.

Hope this helps to the purpose of this thread.
Oz for what it's worth, your translation is correct

Be advised though that most manufacturers set the suspension of the car they hand over for testing to a more agressive setup. Since testing is done on the Nordschleife I'd wager that the posted values for camber at least are NOT stock values.
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