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      04-22-2014, 11:19 AM   #23
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Nice write up, good comparo. The lower limits of older cars is what I was missing for years. I used to love driving my 2002tii through our local canyons easily 4 wheel drifting out of the corners at a speed that was much more Safe? than what can be done in a modern high performance car, including the 1M. While the 1M will kick out the rear end very easy, it's still takes a huge amount of speed to 4 wheel drift the car.

Cars like the GT3 4.0 and greater are unusable around town other than the drive to Cars and Coffee and or the race track that most will never see. Fabulous collectors car though
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      04-22-2014, 11:41 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaddylo View Post
Mark and Robert are both referring to their speedo readings which are over overstating actual speed due to BMW's speedometer safety factor and their smaller track tires. Your 139 mph is probably the max for a 1M at COTA.
I prefer to think that we are just faster.. but yes.. you are correct.. no GPS data here.. although i believe Robertm's race team does own a Solo DL.. ... must borrow.......


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Whew, now I can cancel that nitrous system.


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      04-22-2014, 11:56 AM   #25
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what a group of cars....i have an e90m and want a 1m coupe so damn bad!!!!!

but a '69 911 with a 997 gt3 cup engine is not too shabby neither!! how would you compare that to the 997 rs's?
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      04-23-2014, 08:59 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3 View Post
what a group of cars....i have an e90m and want a 1m coupe so damn bad!!!!!

but a '69 911 with a 997 gt3 cup engine is not too shabby neither!! how would you compare that to the 997 rs's?
The ’69 is a massively different animal than the modern GT3s, on many levels.

At first glance the motors are similar: the '69 has a 997 GT3 motor, admittedly a 3.6 rather than 3.8 or 4.0, but many of the parts are shared. However the "Cup" suffix is hugely important, as it's largely the motor that makes 997 Cup cars feel almost completely different than their street brethren.

A GT3 "Cup" motor is essentially a street motor with parts taken away. Some of those parts simply save weight and complexity, but others serve more critical functions. The most obvious of these is the idle stabilizer, without which the Cup motor drops any street pretensions. Firing a cup motor takes some coaxing and some throttle, and when it finally does come to life (with a bang) it requires a light foot on the gas for a couple minutes as it warms or it will sputter back to sleep. Finally it idles somewhat unhappily at 1800-2000 rpm, pushing enough heat into the headers to get them glowing cherry red.

Once warmed you can try to get rolling- harder than you'd imagine without the idle stabilizer, with zero flywheel and with a multi-plate clutch which bites hard. And once rolling like many race motors it can be reluctant at low RPM. The issue here is that the variocam was also removed, creating a big hole in the torque curve below 4500 rpm. Of course if you're driving a Cup car below 4500 you're doing something wrong, but it makes for a much less flexible, more difficult street motor.

So by using a Cup motor the '69 has the heart of a race car, with all of the drawbacks that entails. Of course there are advantages too. No flywheel means the motor revs like a switch, much faster than any of the street motors, and when it comes on cam...

The chassis is nearly as different. The '69 has JRZ 2x adjustables and coilovers with a very extensive cage for stiffening, but it still pits semi trailing arms designed in the early '60s against a fully modern 5 link rear suspension and a longer wheelbase. Add a much higher power to weight ratio and the result is predictable: the early car's tail is simultaneously happier and much, much angrier. It demands very quick hands and respect, and will not suffer inattention or fools. It takes some of the most challenging 911 characteristics, like those of early short wheel base race cars or modified 996 GT2s, and turns them up to 11. I've had autocross instructors drive it and not be able to complete a single lap without spinning. But there is something hugely involving and attractive about the widow-maker 911s as well, and if that's an experience you're familiar with and enjoy, the '69 Cup is one of the most distilled, high proof versions of that in existence.

It's interesting that on an autocross course it will turn very similar times to a tuned RS, though they make time in entirely different ways. The 997 RS absolutely crushes the '69 Cup in braking. It's not the power of the stoppers- the '69 wears 350mm 6 piston PCCB ceramic takeoffs from a GT2 with more than enough raw stopping power. Instead it's the ABS and the ability to trail-brake deep into a corner that let the modern car find gobs of time. Similarly through transitions the RS is untouchable, the passive rear wheel steering keeping the tail planted rather than twitchy, and it also has a slightly advantage in raw cornering Gs in most cases. All of which means that the modern RS is better at almost everything. Almost...

As you'd expect given the specs, however, the '69 does have a trump card, and it's a good one: it accelerates like little else. At roughly 5:1 hp to weight ratio it's obviously going to be quick, but more impressive is its ability to actually deploy that power so much of the time. All the weight over the rear means it will stick second gear, and not just in a straight line. Data on Hoosiers shows not only .8 Gs of acceleration in a straight line in 2nd gear, but an almost shocking 1 G of cornering and .7 Gs of acceleration simultaneously. Or .5 Gs of acceleration and 1.3 Gs of cornering simultaneously. It will accelerate at .8 Gs in the wet, on street tires. Essentially when it comes on cam and the tires are warm it's probably going to hook up, and when it does...

Does this make it better than a modern RS? No, not even remotely close. The 997s have such breadth- you can happily take them to the shops or to dinner on your way back from the track, where the '69 is a loud, somewhat uncomfortable one-trick pony race car. It can do the occasional back road if you're feeling frisky, but it sucks at pretty much everything else. The 997 RS is honestly a better car in nearly every measurable way.

However if you're in the mood for pure, unadulterated adrenaline with a quad shot chaser I've found very little that can touch a ridiculously light early 911 with a stupidly large motor stuffed in the back. In that rare situation the '69 Cup comes into its own. For that reason, perhaps unfortunately, I could never trade it.
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      04-23-2014, 09:19 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
The ’69 is a massively different animal than the modern GT3s, on many levels.

...
However if you're in the mood for pure, unadulterated adrenaline with a quad shot chaser I've found very little that can touch a ridiculously light early 911 with a stupidly large motor stuffed in the back. In that rare situation the '69 Cup comes into its own. For that reason, perhaps unfortunately, I could never trade it.
Poetry with gas and tire smell, thanks for the excitement of reading it.
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      04-23-2014, 11:40 AM   #28
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So much awesome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
The ’69 is a massively different animal than the modern GT3s, on many levels.

At first glance the motors are similar: the '69 has a 997 GT3 motor, admittedly a 3.6 rather than 3.8 or 4.0, but many of the parts are shared. However the "Cup" suffix is hugely important, as it's the largely the motor that makes 997 Cup cars feel almost completely different than their street brethren.

A GT3 "Cup" motor is essentially a street motor with parts taken away. Some of those parts simply save weight and complexity, but others serve more critical functions. The most obvious of these is the idle stabilizer, without which the Cup motor drops any street pretensions. Firing a cup motor takes some coaxing and some throttle, and when it finally does come to life (with a bang) it requires a light foot on the gas for a couple minutes as it warms or it will sputter back to sleep. Finally it idles somewhat unhappily at 1800-2000 rpm, pushing enough heat into the headers to get them glowing cherry red.

Once warmed you can try to get rolling- harder than you'd imagine without the idle stabilizer, with zero flywheel and with a multi-plate clutch which bites hard. And once rolling like many race motors it can be reluctant at low RPM. The issue here is that the variocam was also removed, creating a big hole in the torque curve below 4500 rpm. Of course if you're driving a Cup car below 4500 you're doing something wrong, but it makes for a much less flexible, more difficult street motor.

So by using a Cup motor the '69 has the heart of a race car, with all of the drawbacks that entails. Of course there are advantages too. No flywheel means the motor revs like a switch, much faster than any of the street motors, and when it comes on cam...

The chassis is nearly as different. The '69 has JRZ 2x adjustables and coilovers with a very extensive cage for stiffening, but it still pits semi trailing arms designed in the early '60s against a fully modern 5 link read suspension and a longer wheelbase. Add a much higher power to weight ratio and the result is predictable: the early car's tail is simultaneously happier and much, much angrier. It demands very quick hands and respect, and will not suffer inattention or fools. It takes some of the most challenging 911 characteristics, like those of early short wheel base race cars or modified 996 GT2s, and turns them up to 11. I've had autocross instructors drive it and not be able to complete a single lap without spinning. But there is something hugely involving and attractive about the widow-maker 911s as well, and if that's an experience you're familiar with and enjoy, the '69 Cup is one of the most distilled, high proof versions of that in existence.

It's interesting that on an autocross course it will turn very similar times to a tuned RS, though they make time in entirely different ways. The 997 RS absolutely crushes the '69 Cup in braking. It's not the power of the stoppers- the '69 wears 350mm 6 piston PCCB ceramic takeoffs from a GT2 with more than enough raw stopping power. Instead it's the ABS and the ability to trail-brake deep into a corner that let the modern car find gobs of time. Similarly through transitions the RS is untouchable, the passive rear wheel steering keeping the tail planted rather than twitchy, and it also has a slightly advantage in raw cornering Gs in most cases. All of which means that the modern RS is better at almost everything. Almost...

As you'd expect given the specs, however, the '69 does have a trump card, and it's a good one: it accelerates like little else. At roughly 5:1 hp to weight ratio it's obviously going to be quick, but more impressive is its ability to actually deploy that power so much of the time. All the weight over the rear means it will stick second gear, and not just in a straight line. Data on Hoosiers shows not only .8 Gs of acceleration in a straight line in 2nd gear, but an almost shocking 1 G of cornering and .7 Gs of acceleration simultaneously. Or .5 Gs of acceleration and 1.3 Gs of cornering simultaneously. It will accelerate at .8 Gs in the wet, on street tires. Essentially when it comes on cam it's probably going to hook up, and when it does...

Does this make it better than a modern RS? No, not even remotely close. The 997s have such breadth- you can happily take them to the shops or to dinner on your way back from the track, where the '69 is a loud, somewhat uncomfortable one-trick pony race car. It can do the occasional back road if you're feeling frisky, but it sucks at pretty much everything else. The 997 RS is honestly a better car in nearly every measurable way.

However if you're in the mood for pure, unadulterated adrenaline with a quad shot chaser I've found very little that can touch a ridiculously light early 911 with a stupidly large motor stuffed in the back. In that rare situation the '69 Cup comes into its own. For that reason, perhaps unfortunately, I could never trade it.
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      04-23-2014, 12:13 PM   #29
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What a fantastic write up. Thanks for taking the time to share this!

I came to my 135is from a base 997, and had a base 986 (way) before that.

Nothing even close to the RS or even GT cars, but still i felt the same with my base 997, even compared to my older 986. The 997 felt a bit more subdued/in control at low speeds where the Boxster felt a lot more nimble/fun,even if it wasn't as powerful.

The 135is is closer to the older boxsters for it fun factor, at least on the streets, but then boasts 997 power, so it kinda brings the good from each, and that's why i fell in love with the 1er so quick.

But again, terrific write up!
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      04-29-2014, 08:25 PM   #30
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Just read your article in Panorama. Nice job. It was interesting since the SharkWorks 4.1 had just been in Excellence and they drooled a little more over it than you did.

Loved the comparo. Keep them coming!
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      04-29-2014, 08:42 PM   #31
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Quote:
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Less slowness. I was letting off gas when the speedo showed 150.
Speedo's are way off at those speeds. At Laguna Seca, my speedo shows 130 down the front straight, but GPS shows 120. I'm sure at 150, it's more than 10mph off.
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      04-29-2014, 08:54 PM   #32
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Nice comparison! Any more pics of the white RS 4.0 without the decals?!
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      04-29-2014, 09:34 PM   #33
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997.5 GT3 4.0RS wil be THE holy grail porsche.
amazing tuned motor, Limited 500 production, Last gen GT3 with 6MT.
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      04-29-2014, 10:38 PM   #34
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Great thread, so many great observations that a threadjack is very possible.

I agree that the slower cars can be more fun. Back in my pre BMW days (post 2002tii) I had an Integra GSR and my wife (in the post wife period now..) had a Civic Lx. Around town the Civic was just so much more fun to drive, its limits were so much lower, it had a stick and I didn't get a nosebleed on the way to redline. Skinny tires, 105hp. Well balanced for a fwd, easy to load up for a corner and if done properly avoid terminal understeer. It was fun. It was also made of Pepsi cans and pretty much collapsed on itself when it got rear ended...

I've had many different BMW's and drive an E90 M3 now (my third). It is a fantastic car but I think my 330 zhp was more fun day to day even though it was substantially slower. Its one of the BMW's I regret selling. I also regret selling the Frozen Grey 11 E90 M3 6mt I had. What was I thinking…one of 3 for North America and I think the only one with a manual transmission.

I had the order placed on a 1M, then sat in it (a pre-production model) and it left me cold. The discussion with the GM of my dealership went something like this..don't cancel your order - "this is a one shot deal that will be worth more in 3 years than it is now" BMW doesn't do this stuff anymore BUY IT!. Another M3 is like another piece of bratwurst, they are making them by the thousands. oops…I still haven't driven one. Probably a good thing. But I got the FG E90 6MT as an alternative.

A GT3 is on the wish list for sure and always has been. Someday…

Thanks for the great write up.
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      04-29-2014, 11:09 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
The 1M, of course, is the exact opposite: it borrows its rear end and tires from a car that puts around 100 ft lbs less to the wheels
Simply not correct. Torque is multiplied through gearing, horsepower is not.
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      04-29-2014, 11:21 PM   #36
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Being an owner of an '11 GT3 RS, an E92 M3, and E93 M3 currently, I have to say your write up sounds really biased towards your particular 'taste' of cars.

No offense, but you don't really 'get' this car and who it's designed for. But then again, you drive a 1M so I wouldn't expect you to understand anyways. You sound like one of those guys that spends hours trying to convince others the 1M is just as good as an M3. lol

The steel synchros, titanium 'race' exhaust, 4 wheel drive level of grip in first gear, bucket seats, torque right up to redline, telepathic steering, communicative brakes.... I don't know where to begin. The GT3 RS is on another level of excitement. And no, you're not supposed to drive this car to work.

I should write up my own review that isn't self-serving and post it on here for anyone that's actually serious about a GT3. For anyone reading, please drive a GT3 at least once in your life, you'll never forget it. Lame review, you sound like an advertisement for BMW, and just fulfilling your own ego. You do realize true driving enthusiasts consider this the ultimate driver's car, right? You missed something along the way when you drove these cars.

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      04-30-2014, 12:05 AM   #37
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these are the examples of write ups of why i frequent the 1addicts section. (in before the news in previous post).
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      04-30-2014, 12:36 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMacSmallFries
Being an owner of an '11 GT3 RS, an E92 M3, and E93 M3 currently, I have to say your write up sounds really biased towards your particular 'taste' of cars.

No offense, but you don't really 'get' this car and who it's designed for. But then again, you drive a 1M so I wouldn't expect you to understand anyways. You sound like one of those guys that spends hours trying to convince others the 1M is just as good as an M3. lol

The steel synchros, titanium 'race' exhaust, 4 wheel drive level of grip in first gear, bucket seats, torque right up to redline, telepathic steering, communicative brakes.... I don't know where to begin. The GT3 RS is on another level of excitement. And no, you're not supposed to drive this car to work.

I should write up my own review that isn't self-serving and post it on here for anyone that's actually serious about a GT3. For anyone reading, please drive a GT3 at least once in your life, you'll never forget it. Lame review, you sound like an advertisement for BMW, and just fulfilling your own ego. You do realize true driving enthusiasts consider this the ultimate driver's car, right? You missed something along the way when you drove these cars.
Interesting observation

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      04-30-2014, 01:36 AM   #39
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I quite like this type of review, it's sincere and from an enthusiast POV.

Congrats!
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      04-30-2014, 01:43 AM   #40
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GT3's

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMacSmallFries View Post
Being an owner of an '11 GT3 RS, an E92 M3, and E93 M3 currently, I have to say your write up sounds really biased towards your particular 'taste' of cars.

No offense, but you don't really 'get' this car and who it's designed for. But then again, you drive a 1M so I wouldn't expect you to understand anyways. You sound like one of those guys that spends hours trying to convince others the 1M is just as good as an M3. lol

The steel synchros, titanium 'race' exhaust, 4 wheel drive level of grip in first gear, bucket seats, torque right up to redline, telepathic steering, communicative brakes.... I don't know where to begin. The GT3 RS is on another level of excitement. And no, you're not supposed to drive this car to work.

I should write up my own review that isn't self-serving and post it on here for anyone that's actually serious about a GT3. For anyone reading, please drive a GT3 at least once in your life, you'll never forget it. Lame review, you sound like an advertisement for BMW, and just fulfilling your own ego. You do realize true driving enthusiasts consider this the ultimate driver's car, right? You missed something along the way when you drove these cars.
Well part of what you say is definitely true. I own a 2013 M3. I will agree the GT3 is the ultimate "drivers" car. I actually tried to buy a 2012 Porsche GTS but had not sold my previous car at the time. By the time I sold it the Porsche GTS was gone so I settled for a new M3 since I could not afford a GT3. I will say the Porsche GTS was the best car I had ever driven. The steering on the M3 and the GTS are almost the same. Not handling of course but turn in is very close. I really regret not being able to get the GTS but I love my M3. If I could get rid of 250 lbs on it, would be unreal. You mentioned everyone should test drive a GT3 before they die. Well that's easier said than done. Living in LA is almost impossible to drive one. There are plenty for sale but even if you go look at one that's in the AutoTrader, the seller wont let you drive it. You need a act of god for a dealer to let you drive one. At least here in LA. Driving a GT3 RS is only a dream although I've seen my share at cars n coffee. I'm always eager to listen to people who GT3's because I would love to have one. I would like to hear your assessment although it may not go over well on a BMW forum.
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      04-30-2014, 01:46 AM   #41
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Apples to oranges comparison. After nearly 3 years of 1M ownership i sold the BMW and bought a 2011 GT3. The 1M is a nice, fast every day car, must say best real life performance i ever experienced, but... driving it however never felt like an occasion, fun but not that special. Took it twice to a track day and it was one of the least confidence inspiring car i ever drove on the track! High sitting position, roll, eruption of torque - fun yes, confident no. So i added a Renault Clio 200 cup to my stable and used it on track, what a hoon! Yeah i sound like that Randy Pobst guy
GT3 is on different planet, so mechanical, no doesnt feel as fast due to smaller torque but then you look at speedo and youre doing 300 kmh... (Germany). And at last, driving it, even seating on the fixed carbon buckets, makes one huge experience. Not an every day car though.
Im not bashing on 1M, one of the greatest car i ever had, but comparisons with GT3 dont make much sense.
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      04-30-2014, 02:40 AM   #42
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      04-30-2014, 02:43 AM   #43
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I want a GT3 so bad.
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      04-30-2014, 03:02 AM   #44
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Is the 4.1 the same car featured on J Lenos Garage (the Blue/Orange scheme)? Wow.
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