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      09-02-2010, 01:01 AM   #55
RPM90
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Drives: 340i M-sport AT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnat View Post
Are you not paying attention to the context of the statement? As they say, reading is fundamental.

The context for both the article and my comments is purely for normal driving conditions not real performance driving.


I don't know the Z06's power curve so I can't speak to it, there also isn't a NA vs FI comparison to be made (as far as I know). But if it applies it's power in such a manner that down shifting is not required to accelerate (quickly) when you are already at highway speeds, then yes I would say the same thing. If, instead, it's power curve is such that you do need to down shift, then no I wouldn't.

In a better comparison, I've driven both a NA 996 C4 and a 996 Turbo. I would say that the same statement holds true. At highway speeds, just pressing the gas in the Turbo gives you more than enough power to get you from 65 to 85 with no hesitation. In the NA 996, you have to downshift for that same feeling. Yes the NA will still accelerate nicely in 6th gear, but not like the Turbo does. To do that (just like with the 128 vs the 135) you MUST down shift.

And yes I have watched an idiot that didn't know what he was doing or how to drive it run a Z06 off an Auto-X course and literally launch it about 4 ft in the air when he hit the curb which sent him over the embankment and into a 6 foot ditch. I was quite surprised that the car was actually drivable (no idea how road worthy it really was, but it moved under it's own power) after it was pulled from the ditch. Wasn't even his car...


Again, you aren't comprehending either the article or my comments. The point is that the 135 (because of it's power curve) has the ability to mask an inexperienced driver's lack of understanding in day to day driving. You punch the gas and it goes and goes quickly. In that same scenario in a 128, you punch the gas in the 1500 - 2500 range and it's going take it's sweet time to do anything (comparatively speaking).

I never implied that the 135 doesn't require skill to drive well or that the 128 requires more skill, just that it won't mask your lack of skill in a very specific instance of day to day driving. In point of fact I clearly said that I agreed with the opinion that you should have more skill to drive the 135 because it's power will surprise the inexperienced and contribute to an accident.

And contrary to your overly simplistic view point, if everything else in the cars is equal they do require slightly different skills to drive effectively at the performance level. The engines do not apply their power in the same manner and you have to know that and adjust your driving to that. If you try to drive them the same you are either going to kill your self when you launch the 135 out of a corner with way too much power or think the 128 is an under performing piece of crap (and still potentially kill yourself when you cause an accident on the track).
First, I take great pride in my writing and reading skills.

The manner in which you write your point, translates to how the reader comprehends it. You say I didn't comprehend what you wrote and that I need to increase my reading comprehension. I say, you need to increase your writing abilities, and hone your writing skills, if the point you are trying to make is different than what I am understanding.

Much of what you write is confusing, hard to understand, and contradictory.

To the actual point at hand, let me then reread and address some of your comments. Your comments in red.

Then you probably won't like this

You're right. But, you're now challenging my reading skills, because I'm pointing out why I don't like "this".

I can actually see a valid argument for the 135 taking less skill as a daily driver even if you are pushing it beyond legal limits (but not to either yours or the car's), having fun with on/off ramps, etc...

Ok. Clearly, you promote "a valid argument", that a 135i takes LESS skill to drive as a daily driver. And, you also say it takes less skill to drive at even spirited levels, which would be "beyond legal limits".
If you think the argument is "valid", then you imply it and support it.

This is contrary to your current statement:
I never implied that the 135 doesn't require skill to drive well or that the 128 requires more skill,


Actually, you do imply that the 135 requires less skill to drive as a daily driver, and as a daily driver driven in a more sporting manner.

With the 128, you have to better understand how the engine performs and how you need to work the transmission to get the best effect when playing with it like that. Because of the power of the 135, you can get away with being a little sloppy in how you apply the power (e.g. to go from 65 to 85 most people will be impressed with what the 135 will do in 6th while the 128 will require going down to 5th or even 4th to get that same "wow" factor).

Up there, you imply and state, that a 128 driver has to have a "better" understanding of an engines power band, as well as a "better" understanding of how to use the gearing to extract and apply the 128's power.

Where is the need for better or different driving skills, that a 135i driver wouldn't also need to have if he's going to come up against a car with more power? What is the difference?
If a 911 can get from 60-90 in 3 seconds while staying in top gear, then as a 135i owner, do I have to have better or different skills to understand that I need to downshift and apply more throttle to match the 911?
To me this is just common sense, and has nothing to do with better or different driving skill with a 128i vs a 135i.

I would also argue that at the limits (e.g. track), the 135 doesn't take any more skill over the 128. They just take different skill sets (assuming the power train is the only difference between the cars) based on how they apply their power.

However, you contradict yourself with this:
In point of fact I clearly said that I agreed with the opinion that you should have more skill to drive the 135 because it's power will surprise the inexperienced and contribute to an accident.


Clearly?

Sooooo....you need less, no, more skill? Or is it, better, less different, less skill?
NO. It's different, right, more different better skills, more or less.


This is getting silly. I was going to get more into your comments, but forget it. The more I read it the more I'm convinced that you're not even sure of what you're trying to say.

I'll simply end with this.
At the track, or on the road, any driver needs driving skill to do and drive well. That should be obvious
.
This whole "different skill sets" thing. What is this?
If I were a race car driver who now needs to bake a cake, then I would need different skill sets.
As a track or race driver, then I need the SAME skills set as a pro driver to do well. What a non pro doesn't have, is not a "different" skill set, they don't have the experience with the skills. They have not developed their driving skills. You don't need to develop your 128i driving skills, you need to develop your overall driving skills. That goes for all of us.

An AWD had different handling characteristics. A high strung turbo has a different throttle response. A mid-engine car has a different steering balance. Different types of setups call on the drivers skill to adapt to the varying characteristics of different automobiles.
There are cars that require a better skilled driver to extract the best performance. But, those are still driving skills, that have been honed and developed with experience.

If you're a skilled track driver, then you should be able to do well driving a 128i or an Infiniti G37 sedan. Each car may call upon THOSE skills a bit more in one area than another, but overall, you're driving a car. Same skill set. But, don't tell me that a 128i driver has to have "better' or "different" skills in order to drive that car.

If that is what you're trying to say, then we agree.
If not, then we simply don't agree.

That's it.




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