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      02-23-2018, 12:08 PM   #67
bbnks2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanDavies View Post
I wouldn't want to use results as a bar if I were a second slower than a stock Kia Forte when you're on race tires either:

http://autox4u.com/nnjrlive/results.html

Or maybe 4.6 seconds slower than an FRS with Shocks, Springs, and bars:
https://metronypca.org/ax_results/20...ocross_raw.htm

ELL OH ELL.
Maybe I should google every one of your events ever and compare you to cars outside of your class as well? I was late to that event fyi. I was on street tires but ran in that class so I could be in the second run group and not have to drive 2.5 hours home. Had I been in SP/SM I would've been in 3rd place right behind Serafin who drives his turbo Miata in the local SCCA events. Never been to an event at that lot before or with that group. Never auto-crossed on sealed blacktop before and the car was insanely loose. The course was way different than anything I had ever driven locally. The lots SCCA and PCA run in around here are so small that they run very technical courses. I also didn't get to walk the course at all. I got there right as they sent the first car off. We all start somewhere. All excuses but then again I am not the one posting videos and pictures because I am clueless about tuning suspension...

If you want to have a dick measuring contest instead of a discussion then you can have fun with that. Neither you nor Kyle have added ANYTHING of value to this thread. Literally all you've done is try to infer that I am wrong WHILE AGREEING WITH ME. Then you post pictures of something that does not even support what your saying. Get a clue.

Now look at the second MetroPCA event you posted. I was 5 seconds faster than the same WRX (a nationals level driver) that was FTD in the other event I posted... autocross results don't meant ANYTHING in regard to tuning suspension.
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Last edited by bbnks2; 02-23-2018 at 12:23 PM.
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      02-23-2018, 12:31 PM   #68
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You started the dick measuring contest by sharing your cherry-picked results. I'm easy to find. I can show you top paxes or events where I was 3 seconds off the pace on a given day. But I can't imagine being at a point where I'd be opining as if you have any idea what you're talking about when your "ultimate driving machine" can get raw timed by a stock Kia Forte. I didn't even mention the pax finishes, but also LOL.

The fact that you think autocross and road race setups are particularly different is rather telling. There are rather bumpy sites but very few of us set our cars up around it (Nationals is rather smooth, so are most of the other lots at national events people care about). Most of dealing with bumps is digressive shock valving, not spring rate...
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      02-23-2018, 01:12 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanDavies View Post
You started the dick measuring contest by sharing your cherry-picked results. I'm easy to find. I can show you top paxes or events where I was 3 seconds off the pace on a given day. But I can't imagine being at a point where I'd be opining as if you have any idea what you're talking about when your "ultimate driving machine" can get raw timed by a stock Kia Forte. I didn't even mention the pax finishes, but also LOL.

The fact that you think autocross and road race setups are particularly different is rather telling. There are rather bumpy sites but very few of us set our cars up around it (Nationals is rather smooth, so are most of the other lots at national events people care about). Most of dealing with bumps is digressive shock valving, not spring rate...
No you did by posting pictures and videos of your autocross results as proof of suspension tuning and then asking me where my pictures and videos were at. This is childish.

So you're saying being droop limited is not detrimental to traction when driving over bumpy pavement?

The only people bringing up autocross is you and Kyle. OP doesn't even autocross. Stop derailing the conversation about understeer and maybe we would actually have a meaningful conversation here instead of this trash. I still haven't heard either you or Kyle offer any advice. Do that and we can move on. No one cares about your autocross pictures.

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      02-23-2018, 01:21 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbnks2 View Post
No you did by posting pictures and videos of your autocross results as proof of suspension tuning and then asking me where my pictures and videos were at. This is childish.

So you're saying being droop limited is not detrimental to traction when driving over bumpy pavement?

The only people bringing up autocross is you and Kyle. OP doesn't even autocross. Stop detailing the conversation about understeer and maybe we would actually have a meaningful conversation here instead of this trash. I still haven't heard either you or Kyle offer any advice. Do that and we can move on. No one cares about your autocross pictures.
Uh, actually he does.

And yes, I told OP to get a UUC swaybar, he did. End of story. Iím pretty sure heís ignoring you, along with everyone else.

Your ďsuspension knowledgeĒ does nothing if you canít actually drive
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      02-23-2018, 01:32 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
Uh, actually he does.

And yes, I told OP to get a UUC swaybar, he did. End of story. Iím pretty sure heís ignoring you, along with everyone else.

Your ďsuspension knowledgeĒ does nothing if you canít actually drive
I shared my thoughts, nor did I make any request for videos or pictures, lol. I made a comment that youíve never driven your car at a pace where setup is remotely relevant, and thatís been indicated to be true. You can find plenty of other empty events in tiny lots that nobody decent shows up to if you want, lol....

This guy is funny. Salty that he opines endlessly about his thoughts yet goes slower on index than a bone stock 135 should....

I am confident setup isnít your problem, we can agree on that at least...Iím also not sure you understand the relationship between droop and load transfer. Itís not relevant how much droop a car has if it has completed its load transfer. If thereís 0% load on a tire it doesnít matter if it is touching the ground or not....

The reason the few people who know what theyíre doing donít post is shit like this, on every marque forum on the internet. A bunch of scene kiddies talk about their mad tyte shit and regurgitate some motoiq article or something and any decent information gets lost in the noise. If youíre gonna be mountains off the pace it doesnít matter whether you have a perfect setup or not. I had contro arm bushings completely fail before Nationals in 2016, to a point where any steering input was irrelevant and I wasnít nearly as far off as the ďexpertĒ on here....

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      02-23-2018, 02:56 PM   #72
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NASA central, NASA Great Lakes, dmvr scca. All my results can be found there.

Randy Sams 117 Ttd NASA, bsp scca.

I have a YouTube channel under my name. Feel free.

Look Brenden, I donít actually think you are a terrible driver, you need to work on a few things, but a forum is a place to discuss ideas and results. Especially a track forum. The op asked about some stuff, and people related their experience. In an effort to help. Some good, some bad. The appropriate way to be involved, is give you two cents, and be done. People can listen or not. It is not your job to jump and down and call people names if they donít agree with you. This lesson permeates all person to person interactions. You need to work on it. You may find you have a hard time at work and at the track if you donít.
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      02-23-2018, 03:25 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbnks2 View Post
Waiting on your videos and pictures. Maybe some auto-x results too? That's how we discuss suspension tuning around here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuzXjuXKfys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejb4lo7NTKA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d2XwRflvYM

http://timingscoring.drivenasa.com/N...ial%20Results/

http://timingscoring.drivenasa.com/N...ial%20Results/

https://www.dmvrscca.org/autocross-previous-results/
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      02-23-2018, 03:50 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicbelly View Post
NASA central, NASA Great Lakes, dmvr scca. All my results can be found there.

Randy Sams 117 Ttd NASA, bsp scca.

I have a YouTube channel under my name. Feel free.

Look Brenden, I donít actually think you are a terrible driver, you need to work on a few things, but a forum is a place to discuss ideas and results. Especially a track forum. The op asked about some stuff, and people related their experience. In an effort to help. Some good, some bad. The appropriate way to be involved, is give you two cents, and be done. People can listen or not. It is not your job to jump and down and call people names if they donít agree with you. This lesson permeates all person to person interactions. You need to work on it. You may find you have a hard time at work and at the track if you donít.
Thanks. I appreciate your honest opinion. It was not me who started with the insults. The two "pros" who have no clue what they are talking about did... you're right, I should've just walked away when they decided to make backhanded comments inferring I was wrong (while stating the same thing as me) and started grandstanding with pictures and "results" instead of providing actual tuning knowledge.

More rear sway solves under-steer. Case closed, right?
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      02-23-2018, 07:29 PM   #75
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Oh man, this thread has gotten juicy. People have messaged me on different social media platforms talking about it LOLOL.

Just to reiterate: Sometimes there are different ways to solve a problem.

Thanks for all the comments in here, good or bad, it promotes discussion about further development of the platform, even if it takes some poking, prodding, or dick measuring to here said comments.
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      02-27-2018, 03:21 PM   #76
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Tuning AST Shocks by Brian Hanchey (hancheyb@ast-usa.com)
This is a handy "cliff notes" version of how to setup your car. It is by no means the "end all,
be all" manual to setting up a car for the track, but is a way to get started when you're new
to adjustable shocks. Cars are systems that operate with many variables. Depending on
the car (fwd, awd, rwd) or high horsepower or low horsepower you may have to do
unconventional things to achieve the goals you want. This document outlines some of the
basics to get you on your way.
NOTE: This article assumes your car has quality bushings in all locations. If you
have not checked or replaced all your bushings STOP READING THIS ARTICLE.
You must have properly inspected bushings before beginning to setup a car's
shocks.
The following applies to all AST shocks (4100, 4200, 4300, Sportline 1, etc)
Rebound Adjustment (top knob for most models)
ASTs have detents or clicks when you turn the knob. Usually they have 12 clicks,
sometimes 13. So here is what you do at the track OR autocross, same applies.
AST uses the terms "opened" and "closed" because what you're doing is opening and closing
a bleed valve in the piston assembly. Turn the adjuster to fully closed. This is the same as
screwing a bolt in ("righty tighty") and is labeled "H" on the orange adjuster knob. This
may or may not wind up on an exact click so turn it clockwise until you feel a resistance
then turn it back to the nearest click. This becomes the reference point we'll call "fully
closed". When you discuss setups with AST dealers, use these terms (opened and closed).
Do this for all four shocks/struts. Drive the car on the track and notice if you feel it
understeer at turn-in or oversteer at turn-in. If either of those conditions exist do the
following.
For understeer at turn-in: Turn the front shocks 2 clicks softer or towards open. Drive it
again, and repeat if the condition continues to exist. If you get to fully opened and it still
occurs you'll need to soften the front bar, add more front camber, or check your tire
pressures.
For oversteer at turn-in: Turn the rear shocks 2 clicks softer or towards open. Drive it
again, and repeat if the condition continues to exist. If you get to fully opened and it still
occurs you'll need to stiffen the front bar or check your tire pressures.
Shocks do not affect handling in steady state cornering in perfect conditions. That
is to say they *could* affect handling if you hit a big bump in a corner, but in steady state,
over- or under-steer is caused by spring rate, sway bars, tire pressure, camber, camber of
the turn, toe, etc. So if this happens, don't blame the shocks. Something else is going on.
That helps you rule out one thing!
WARNING: To those that have ever said "my car is so low it is tight!" If your car
understeers, you are most likely "riding on the bumpstops". RAISE YOUR CAR because
going fast at the track looks much cooler than having the car too low and understeering.
Lower is not always the answer in car setup.
For understeer at corner exit: Turn the front shocks 2 clicks towards closed. Drive it
again, and repeat if the condition continues to exist. If you get to fully closed and it still
occurs you'll need to soften the front bar, stiffen the rear, add more front camber, or check
your tire pressures. You might have to experiment with both because it may depend on
many things.
For oversteer at corner exit: Rebound adjustment has little effect on corner exit. You
can disconnect the rear bar if you need to. Alternatively you can close the rebound on the
front shocks too to transfer weight. Also, consider adding more rear toe. We run 1/4" of
rear toe-in to put the power down. Also, on BMWs things like the condition of the RTAB
bushings will change this as well. Make sure they are new or in good shape AND we don't
recommend poly.
These are the basics I use to set a car up. This gets you most of the way there. As stated,
the vehicle dynamics is extremely complex. Depending on your level of car preparation you
might need to consult someone for additional information. Enjoy!
Low Speed Compression Adjustment for AST 4200 and 4300s
Rebound adjustment is the most critical component to car setup. Compression adjustment
gives you that fine tuning ability to change the damper under new conditions such as a new
surface or track. Compression adjustment is a little more tricky than rebound adjustment.
You want to run just enough compression that the tire doesn't "skip" over bumps. On a
perfectly smooth surface this may mean a fully closed setup, while a bumpy surface may
require you to run very little compression. Leave compression fully opened while you
experiment with rebound. Once you're happy with the rebound settings, begin playing with
compression setup.
After rebound adjustment is complete, set all four dampers at 6 clicks from fully closed.
Follow the procedures listed in the above section to determine where this is on the
adjustment range. As you drive notice several things:
1. Do you feel the car skipping over bumps?
1. If yes, decrease compression on the end of the car skipping by two clicks.
Repeat as required.
2. Does the car put power down well on corner exit?
1. If no, increase compression at the rear of the car by two clicks unless the
surface is bumpy. Repeat as required.
3. Does the car porpoise under braking?
1. If yes, increase compression of the front dampers by two clicks. Repeat as
required.
Out of adjustment? Ask us about revalving options.




A lot of good info in here.
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      02-27-2018, 04:16 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicbelly View Post
A lot of good info in here.
It's is great information if it applys to your coilovers. I believe the JRZ's like Kyle uses are opposite in that CW adjustments make damping softer and CC is stiffer. Now you need to figure out if by "softer" does JRZ mean the damper is faster or slower reacting to weight transfer?... good luck with that as the internet is a minefield of terribly misguided information.

Everywhere I have ever read refers to "stiffer" damping (closing the valve with CW rotation) as SLOWER weight transfer, and this makes logical sense like. However, JRZ appears to refer to CC adjustments as being stiffer and providing FASTER reaction to weight transfer. Go figure. So, are JRZ adjustment knobs backwards, is the way JRZ refers to everything backwards, or did the person who wrote the JRZ setup guide have no clue what they are talking about? I would guess it's the latter...

You can link 15 articles and find a contradiction in every single one of them.
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      03-07-2018, 01:21 PM   #78
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Swapped in an M3 rear-end this past weekend.

The M3 rear bar is hollow. Aftermarket bars all claim to be stiffer than the stock E92 M3 sway. Some adjustable bars do claim to be pretty close to equivalent to the stock M3 bar in effective wheel rate when set to their softest settings though. I am not sure why people said earlier that their aftermarket bars are much less effective than the "massive" (and hollow) M3 sway not to mention its tabs are not straight which makes it even less effective.

The stock bushing on the M3 sway are designed to BIND the rear bar. This means that the M3 bar is also contributing to the effective wheel rate during acceleration/squat since the bar cannot rotate freely. While the M3 bushings do allow quiet a bit of deflection, I bored them out a bit before installing the rear end so that the bar can rotate completely freely without "wind-up." Same deal with my stock front bar, I had to un-glue the stock front bushings so that the bar was not contributing to the effective wheel rate under braking compression. If your sway bars are binding you have to consider their effect on wheel rates in times other than roll.
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      03-07-2018, 09:01 PM   #79
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The bushings are not glued on. They are just bound up. For Christís sake, donít bore them out! Put a layer of grease in there. That is common and regular maintenance for any track or autocross car.
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      03-07-2018, 11:37 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicbelly View Post
The bushings are not glued on. They are just bound up. For Christ’s sake, don’t bore them out! Put a layer of grease in there. That is common and regular maintenance for any track or autocross car.
My stock 135i front sway bushings were 100% glued to the bar. The bushings left small circles of material behind after I cut them off which showed the places where the rubber had been bonded. I've played with the 128 n51 stock sway, the 135i stock sway, an e92 m3 front sway, and an h&r front sway with afternarket bushings. I know the difference.

The rear M3 sway bushings are literally designed to bind on the bar.

"For Christ's sake" there is nothing wrong with increasing the internal diameter of the rubber bushing to free the bar up.
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      03-08-2018, 09:09 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbnks2 View Post


My stock 135i front sway bushings were 100% glued to the bar. The bushings left small circles of material behind after I cut them off which showed the places where the rubber had been bonded. I've played with the 128 n51 stock sway, the 135i stock sway, an e92 m3 front sway, and an h&r front sway with afternarket bushings. I know the difference.

The rear M3 sway bushings are literally designed to bind on the bar.

"For Christ's sake" there is nothing wrong with increasing the internal diameter of the rubber bushing to free the bar up.
Roll with it then man. Good luck.
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      03-08-2018, 09:21 AM   #82
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Same part number for the sway bar bushing for every 1er. No, they are not glued on, and no they are not designed to bind, and neither is the M3 rear bar. If that were the case, the swaybar would come with bushings glued on. It does not. If you want bars to function well, you remove the bushing, grease the inside, and reinstall. You don't bore it out.

I am not going to tell you what to do, if you want to bore it, go ahead. It's your car. But don't put bad info up. It could make someone make a poor choice.
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      03-08-2018, 09:38 AM   #83
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http://www.racer.com/scca-home/item/...crets-swaybars

OP: I found a nice sway bar article, it is based on SCCA solo stock rules though, where you can only do one bar.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/lean-less/

And this one from GRM
Honestly, kind of basic, and not really that specific, but some good stuff.

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      03-08-2018, 10:09 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicbelly View Post
Same part number for the sway bar bushing for every 1er. No, they are not glued on, and no they are not designed to bind, and neither is the M3 rear bar. If that were the case, the swaybar would come with bushings glued on. It does not. If you want bars to function well, you remove the bushing, grease the inside, and reinstall. You don't bore it out.

I am not going to tell you what to do, if you want to bore it, go ahead. It's your car. But don't put bad info up. It could make someone make a poor choice.
You do realize there are many different packages [and part numbers] for these cars, right?

My 135i came with the M-sport package. I have all the fancy "M" symbols" everywhere, the black headliner, and the shadow-line trim. My sway bar has a DIFFERENT part number. The description even includes that the M-sport bar and bushings are a single item "Stabilizer front with rubber mounting": http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=31_0696

I had to cut the bushings off my sway bar. They were mechanically connected. My old 128i bushings simply pried off with a flathead screwdriver (it had all sorts of cool packages, but it was not an "M-sport 128i"); however, those bushings were also pretty bound up on the bar when mounted. Looking at RealOEM, both the 128i and 135i can come with the same package (S704A).

I literally had an entire E92 M3 subframe in my hands last weekend. The bushings on the rear bar are designed to bind. You cannot tell me otherwise. There was two layers of rubber with a metal insert in-between the two layers. The internal diameter of the rear sway bushings was significantly smaller than the OD of the bar itself. The second layer of rubber literally clamps down and grips the bar. It moves separately from the first layer of stiffer rubber. I put my full weight on the bar many times to watch the deflection in action. Like I said earlier, while the E92 M3 bushing design does allow some deflection, the bar surely could not rotate freely even with my entire body weight on it. This was not a matter of grease. The rubber acts like a rubber band on the bar.



None of this matters if you move to aftermarket bushings (whether they be stock, M3, or aftermarket sways). It does surprise me that no one else has noted any of these important details about the sway bushings that I noted above. These minute things make a significant difference in effective wheel rates... By gluing the bushings to the bar you are adding-hundreds of lbs of wheel rate. My body weight did not deflect the rear M3 sway more than 1/4" or so... Maybe if more people cared about the math of trying to calculate things like roll couple (go to a miata forum) more people would've notice by now how significant things like this are.
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Last edited by bbnks2; 03-08-2018 at 11:19 AM.
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      03-08-2018, 10:42 AM   #85
bionicbelly
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Again, do not put bad info up. They are not glued on. EVER. Show me BMW sway bar adhesive if that is the case.
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      03-08-2018, 11:08 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicbelly View Post
Again, do not put bad info up. They are not glued on. EVER. Show me BMW sway bar adhesive if that is the case.
LOL you want me to show you BMW sway bar adhesive? Why don't you show me your M-sport sway bar bushings? Why don't you explain why BMW lists the sway bar and bushings for my car as one part number?

Are you really trying to say I didn't have to CUT the bushings off my 135i bar? Are you really trying to say that they ARE NOT different than the bushings I was able to pry right off my 128i sway that had the bushings you linked to earlier? What a joke this is that people are so clueless.

A blowtorch, a knife, and first hand experience is apparently less evidence then your baseless assumptions.

HEY LOOK: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=842320

Brand new BMW PS sway bars with glued on bushings... Are you saying these people all got sway bars from BMW that were "bound up" off the factory floor and the bushings aren't glued on somehow?
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      03-08-2018, 11:16 AM   #87
bionicbelly
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I really wish you lived closer to me.
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      03-08-2018, 11:32 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicbelly View Post
I really wish you lived closer to me.
Answer me this, is your 128i an M-sport optioned with package S704A? Send me the last 7 of your vin... Actually I don't need it. You do not have an M-sport 128i. I know this for a fact.

While an M-sport 128i is pretty rare, almost every LCI 135i is an M-sport (maybe all of them even?) and many of the older N54s were also optioned for the M-sport package. Very few are "base" model 135i's that would've gotten the same bushings that were on your (and mine) base model 128i sway bar.. So yeah, I would say OP needs to check to make sure his front sway is not BOUND causing his under-steer. I say this because he has stated that he has recently moved back to his stock sway bar. Like you said yourself, look first to fix the end that is not working correctly before modifying anything else.
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Last edited by bbnks2; 03-08-2018 at 12:03 PM.
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