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      07-21-2019, 07:29 PM   #1
AzGregg
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time for turbos and downpipes

it looks like my waste gates are ... well... wasted.

I am slammed right now, so my friends over at Lusso Motorsports Group are looking at some Pure stage one turbos, and catless downpipes. 96,000 miles out of the stock parts seems pretty good.

anything else I should be aware of? Already have Dinan stage 2 tune, drop in K&N, and N55 center section. Will be putting on an aftermarket intercooler once I recover from this hit.
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      07-27-2019, 09:18 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzGregg View Post
it looks like my waste gates are ... well... wasted.

I am slammed right now, so my friends over at Lusso Motorsports Group are looking at some Pure stage one turbos, and catless downpipes. 96,000 miles out of the stock parts seems pretty good.

anything else I should be aware of? Already have Dinan stage 2 tune, drop in K&N, and N55 center section. Will be putting on an aftermarket intercooler once I recover from this hit.
I would recommend you to get rid of your Dinan tune and drop in K&N and replace it with the following:

Pure Stage 2 Hi Flo, BMS DCI, MHD stacked with jb4. Meth, 7.5 inch race intercooler and catless downpipes. finish it off with a M factory SMFW and a Stage 3+ clutch
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      07-27-2019, 12:04 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightning View Post
I would recommend you to get rid of your Dinan tune and drop in K&N and replace it with the following:

Pure Stage 2 Hi Flo, BMS DCI, MHD stacked with jb4. Meth, 7.5 inch race intercooler and catless downpipes. finish it off with a M factory SMFW and a Stage 3+ clutch
all that is great, JB4 is in the future for sure. The wife daily drives the car, and is not a fan of turbo noise, so that eliminates most of the air filter options.

I am curious if, while this deep in the car there are any other potential items we should be looking at before buttoning it up.
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      07-28-2019, 08:32 AM   #4
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Forget turbo noise . . . your wife may not be a fan of the catless smell either. Are you keeping the cats in the midpipe?

For performance and retained cats, consider high flow catted downpipes and catless midpipe (berk or MadDad, or a full exhaust system) to avoid the smell.
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      07-28-2019, 09:56 PM   #5
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I think better to dump the cats on the downpipe and leave the mids if don't want the smell. Cheaper and more effective, methinks.
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      07-31-2019, 01:15 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Em/1 View Post
I think better to dump the cats on the downpipe and leave the mids if don't want the smell. Cheaper and more effective, methinks.
we already have the N55 mids, but decided to leave the stock down pipes and Dinan tune for the time being. should be a bit more fun for now, and give me something to look forward to down the road.
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      07-31-2019, 04:09 PM   #7
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Quote:
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JB4 is in the future for sure
No, it's the distant past and even then it was a stopgap not an ideal solution. No reason for it whatsoever unless you want to use it as your meth controller. But even that would be a bad idea since you'll get the same power and better drivability with some ethanol in your gas and a bigger intercooler.
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      07-31-2019, 10:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes View Post
No, it's the distant past and even then it was a stopgap not an ideal solution. No reason for it whatsoever unless you want to use it as your meth controller. But even that would be a bad idea since you'll get the same power and better drivability with some ethanol in your gas and a bigger intercooler.


hmmm.. curious why you would say that, cause burger puts in a lot of effort for upgrading as well.I'm running it and it doesn't feel like a stop gap solution. There are many other functions of the jb4 that perhaps you haven't discovered. I too was once a non believer, but after going through multiple tuners and multiple flash tunes (cobb/evolve/custom etc) i would say that jb4 works well.
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      08-01-2019, 10:07 AM   #9
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Hopefully I can help distill this for you and help with advice

Turbos:
I'd skip the stage 1 units and go straight to Pure stg2 DD or HiFlow with 2" snout. Reason on this is they will still spool like stock with appropriate vanos tuning and allow for higher compressor area, same power on 93 with less boost, less wear and tear. There are other options which I like better (Hydra) but Pure is PROVEN and a surefire way to get a reliable set of twins.

Intake:
Since the turbos will be out I'd absolutely get stock location 2" inlets and aluminum outlets installed. This will open up airflow and allow for more of the above. Then since your wife doesn't like turbo noise, get a sealed aFe intake to fit the stock location inlets. I'd also get the ER aluminum charge pipe if not already done, as this both eliminates a plastic pipe which WILL explode on you at an inopportune time (ask me how I know) and deletes the resonator tube which will quiet the cabin a bit, good for wife.

Keep the stock cowl and cabin filters for best quiet.

Exhaust:
Since you have the N55 mids, which I don't recommend (N54/1M mids are superior), you'll want high flow downpipes. I believe AR is the go to for this.

Cooling:
You'll absolutely need an upgraded intercooler. I like the Wagner evo3 comp or the BMS 7.5" Race for this. I've also used the BigTom. Pick your poison. Whatever you choose, go big and get ready to CUT SOME PLASTIC!

Clutch/FW:
I'd recommend against going with a SMFW/Spec clutch if you want something that drives like stock and doesn't make a ton of noise. Read that again for emphasis.

Instead, get an XClutch organic twin disc. AU company. They FINALLY brought it to the US for sale. Supports somewhere around 1000hp, quiet, and stock weight pedal. Stay away from any of the other big twin disc names (spec/motiv/mfactory etc)

Tune:
You can absolutely go with the JB4/MHD backend stack, I did for years and loved it. I'd get your backend custom built for your hardware by Twisted Tuning. OR, go straight MHD custom. N54 tables are continually being unlocked and with MHD WiFi, NLS, Launch Control, Knock tables all coming very soon, I think MHD is going to outclass JB4 in the near future.

Rubber:
Get some sticky tires, you'll need them even with that beautiful ///M rear end.

And before all that we have to mention MAINTENANCE:
Walnut blast, coils, plugs, make sure injectors are functioning properly, depending on mileage and known engine health you may want to go ahead and get a new valve cover with gasket, change out the OFHG and oil pan gasket. IF doing the oil pan gasket, probably a good idea to swap the rod bearings. Since youre doing clutch, its a great time to preemptively replace the rear main seal and guibo. I'd also get new engine mounts and trans mounts. I'd also hugely recommend changing the serp belt and all pulleys/tensioners so the old belt doesn't get sucked into the engine and necessitate a teardown at the worst possible time. There's a ton to do and it all adds up. Sorry for that news.

Have fun!
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      08-01-2019, 07:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightning View Post
hmmm.. curious why you would say that
JB4 hijacks a couple sensors (adding in multiple points of failure) and spams the canbus to do an inferior job of what reflashing the stock ecu, which has TOTAL AUTHORITY over the engine and over 100 maps modified by the tuner in a custom flash, can do.

JB4 *could* be useful for running auxiliary fueling, nitrous, meth, or some crazy stuff of that sort that the ECU can't control. If you want to run meth, fine, but high ethanol gas mix gives same power with considerably more safety if your fueling is there. Meth also has inferior drivability at part throttle, even with the best progressive controllers.

If you're not doing any of that stuff, the jb4 is a joke on you. I want whatever is best and I've been remapping cars for 5 years now. How long have you been remapping lol.

Also, curious how you mention every lame tune out there but not the gold standard, MHD. Try MHD, you'll love it.
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      08-02-2019, 01:05 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes View Post
JB4 hijacks a couple sensors (adding in multiple points of failure) and spams the canbus to do an inferior job of what reflashing the stock ecu, which has TOTAL AUTHORITY over the engine and over 100 maps modified by the tuner in a custom flash, can do.

JB4 *could* be useful for running auxiliary fueling, nitrous, meth, or some crazy stuff of that sort that the ECU can't control. If you want to run meth, fine, but high ethanol gas mix gives same power with considerably more safety if your fueling is there. Meth also has inferior drivability at part throttle, even with the best progressive controllers.

If you're not doing any of that stuff, the jb4 is a joke on you. I want whatever is best and I've been remapping cars for 5 years now. How long have you been remapping lol.

Also, curious how you mention every lame tune out there but not the gold standard, MHD. Try MHD, you'll love it.
Hey, haha chill man we're all here to learn so there's no need to be overly aggressive or condescending. I am not here to turn this into a keyboard war of words..

thanks for the valuable insight, I've actually been on MHD for 4 years for my backend flash too and couldn't agree more about how good it is. good to know that you' have 5 years of remapping experience! Reason why i mentioned those "lame tunes" was because those were done progressively 8 years ago when the 1M just came out, when MHD wasn't available then.

When you mention alternatives to meth such as high ethanol gas mix, do we need to run port injection? Maybe you can suggest a good alternative setup compared to meth (because i too agree with you that Meth have inferior response time and drivability) when auxiliary fueling is required i guess it becomes much more complicated, BUT if MHD can control it all that'd be my dream!!

Last edited by lightning; 08-02-2019 at 05:45 AM..
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      08-02-2019, 05:30 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShocknAwe View Post
Hopefully I can help distill this for you and help with advice

Turbos:
I'd skip the stage 1 units and go straight to Pure stg2 DD or HiFlow with 2" snout. Reason on this is they will still spool like stock with appropriate vanos tuning and allow for higher compressor area, same power on 93 with less boost, less wear and tear. There are other options which I like better (Hydra) but Pure is PROVEN and a surefire way to get a reliable set of twins.

Intake:
Since the turbos will be out I'd absolutely get stock location 2" inlets and aluminum outlets installed. This will open up airflow and allow for more of the above. Then since your wife doesn't like turbo noise, get a sealed aFe intake to fit the stock location inlets. I'd also get the ER aluminum charge pipe if not already done, as this both eliminates a plastic pipe which WILL explode on you at an inopportune time (ask me how I know) and deletes the resonator tube which will quiet the cabin a bit, good for wife.

Keep the stock cowl and cabin filters for best quiet.

Exhaust:
Since you have the N55 mids, which I don't recommend (N54/1M mids are superior), you'll want high flow downpipes. I believe AR is the go to for this.

Cooling:
You'll absolutely need an upgraded intercooler. I like the Wagner evo3 comp or the BMS 7.5" Race for this. I've also used the BigTom. Pick your poison. Whatever you choose, go big and get ready to CUT SOME PLASTIC!

Clutch/FW:
I'd recommend against going with a SMFW/Spec clutch if you want something that drives like stock and doesn't make a ton of noise. Read that again for emphasis.

Instead, get an XClutch organic twin disc. AU company. They FINALLY brought it to the US for sale. Supports somewhere around 1000hp, quiet, and stock weight pedal. Stay away from any of the other big twin disc names (spec/motiv/mfactory etc)

Tune:
You can absolutely go with the JB4/MHD backend stack, I did for years and loved it. I'd get your backend custom built for your hardware by Twisted Tuning. OR, go straight MHD custom. N54 tables are continually being unlocked and with MHD WiFi, NLS, Launch Control, Knock tables all coming very soon, I think MHD is going to outclass JB4 in the near future.

Rubber:
Get some sticky tires, you'll need them even with that beautiful ///M rear end.

And before all that we have to mention MAINTENANCE:
Walnut blast, coils, plugs, make sure injectors are functioning properly, depending on mileage and known engine health you may want to go ahead and get a new valve cover with gasket, change out the OFHG and oil pan gasket. IF doing the oil pan gasket, probably a good idea to swap the rod bearings. Since youre doing clutch, its a great time to preemptively replace the rear main seal and guibo. I'd also get new engine mounts and trans mounts. I'd also hugely recommend changing the serp belt and all pulleys/tensioners so the old belt doesn't get sucked into the engine and necessitate a teardown at the worst possible time. There's a ton to do and it all adds up. Sorry for that news.

Have fun!


Great advice from you as always bro!
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      08-02-2019, 05:32 AM   #13
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For stock turbos you don't need port injection to take advantage of e85. If you upgrade turbos you will need port injection.
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      08-02-2019, 07:02 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes View Post
For stock turbos you don't need port injection to take advantage of e85. If you upgrade turbos you will need port injection.
This is generally true but I've found it a bit more complicated.

It depends on mix and target for N54. For anything E30 and below, stock LPFP is sufficient. E50-e70, a Stg2 is necessary, see also walbro 450 lpfp. Straight pump E85 should always be port injected or DI with an upgraded HPFP via shotgun or replacement unit.

Other way to think about it is that the stock N54 HPFP setup can handle high content E mixes power output up to 550whp with a walbro450 in line behind it. This is the bleeding edge with ethanol.

BUT, here's the catcher... If you get the proper setup and run 93 only (10% E) you can get ~620-650whp before the HPFP starts crashing on DI ONLY PUMP GAS!

I would expect about 500-525whp with the proper supporting bolt ons in my post above, a quality custom tune, and pure stg 2 hiflow turbos on 93.

So, it depends. This is all generally speaking. There's more to it and enormous car to car variation based on fuel and ignition system health and intake valve cleanliness but I'm not an expert by any means.
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      08-02-2019, 04:20 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShocknAwe View Post
Hopefully I can help distill this for you and help with advice
.

And before all that we have to mention MAINTENANCE:
Walnut blast, coils, plugs, make sure injectors are functioning properly, depending on mileage and known engine health you may want to go ahead and get a new valve cover with gasket, change out the OFHG and oil pan gasket. IF doing the oil pan gasket, probably a good idea to swap the rod bearings. Since youre doing clutch, its a great time to preemptively replace the rear main seal and guibo. I'd also get new engine mounts and trans mounts. I'd also hugely recommend changing the serp belt and all pulleys/tensioners so the old belt doesn't get sucked into the engine and necessitate a teardown at the worst possible time. There's a ton to do and it all adds up. Sorry for that news.

Have fun!
there was great advice in all of that, but for this car there are other factors.

The maintenance you mention has just about all been done, short of rod bearings. There is a somewhat fresh factory clutch.

this is a Daily Driver, and runs on Arizona premium gas, shitty 91.

we will never push 600 hp with this car, so the exotic fueling is well beyond me.

we decided against downpipes for now, other expenses are eating at the budget. Next will be an intercooler, then downpipes, backend flash and JB4, possibly an intake.

we use the car mostly in downtown PHX, with frequent highway trips to CA and around AZ. My wife drives it the most, but now that she likes driving the 4C, I get it a bit more.
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      08-02-2019, 04:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzGregg View Post
there was great advice in all of that, but for this car there are other factors.

The maintenance you mention has just about all been done, short of rod bearings. There is a somewhat fresh factory clutch.

this is a Daily Driver, and runs on Arizona premium gas, shitty 91.

we will never push 600 hp with this car, so the exotic fueling is well beyond me.

we decided against downpipes for now, other expenses are eating at the budget. Next will be an intercooler, then downpipes, backend flash and JB4, possibly an intake.

we use the car mostly in downtown PHX, with frequent highway trips to CA and around AZ. My wife drives it the most, but now that she likes driving the 4C, I get it a bit more.
Whats the ethanol availability like in your area and the highway network that you travel on? 91 could be remedied to ~95 octane with 4 gallons E85. This is ~E30 and won't change your fuel economy too much. E30 will also drastically improve your knock stability and allows timing to stay pretty stable despite the huge heat you experience out there.

IATs may be your biggest issue when tuning. If you wanted to get fancy you could install 1-2 cm4-7 nozzles in your charge pipe and do extremely low flow 50/50 water methanol atomization to drop charge air temps. This is entirely safe as long as you don't then adjust your tune for the additional octane methanol will add. BMS sells a WM kit with a small tank that would be ideal for this, as well as the jb4 module to handle delivery. 50/50 WM is also fire safe, though I still wouldn't put it in my engine bay, trunk is best.

www.georgebelton.com/e85calculator.php
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      08-04-2019, 05:55 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShocknAwe View Post
Whats the ethanol availability like in your area and the highway network that you travel on? 91 could be remedied to ~95 octane with 4 gallons E85. This is ~E30 and won't change your fuel economy too much. E30 will also drastically improve your knock stability and allows timing to stay pretty stable despite the huge heat you experience out there.

IATs may be your biggest issue when tuning. If you wanted to get fancy you could install 1-2 cm4-7 nozzles in your charge pipe and do extremely low flow 50/50 water methanol atomization to drop charge air temps. This is entirely safe as long as you don't then adjust your tune for the additional octane methanol will add. BMS sells a WM kit with a small tank that would be ideal for this, as well as the jb4 module to handle delivery. 50/50 WM is also fire safe, though I still wouldn't put it in my engine bay, trunk is best.

www.georgebelton.com/e85calculator.php
it is here, somewhere, but not easy enough for my wife to find on a regular basis. 91 is what we will be living with. once we go with dowmpipes and better tune, I will consider water meth.

Last edited by AzGregg; 08-08-2019 at 08:51 PM..
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