135i or 08 STi or EVO X??

[Disasterpiece]

Damn you guys are harsh over here..

[Disasterpiece]

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...&highlight=GT5

At least i dont where driving gloves and driving shoes like this dude LOL

[adc]

Originally Posted by Disasterpiece

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...&highlight=GT5

At least i dont where driving gloves and driving shoes like this dude LOL

Well then I guess it's ok.

[theslik1]

Originally Posted by Disasterpiece

Damn you guys are harsh over here..

We're actually ok at times. I just left a thread over at bimmerfest where a guy blamed two pages of trolling on a migraine.

Anyway, I love the GT series of games but I've never driven an EVO, STi , or 135i in real life. Since the GT game environment isn't quite 100% real-world fidelity I'd just consider it a rough approximation of the cars' abilities.

I'll also play devil's advocate and say that within a few short years GT and it's ilk will be close enough to real to provide useful knowledge of a specific car's performance. Just not yet... :smile:

[atr_hugo]

This is the only simulator I know of that'll get close, racer approved! ; -)

http://www.cxcsimulations.com/index.html

[Disasterpiece]

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

This is the only simulator I know of that'll get close, racer approved! ; -)

http://www.cxcsimulations.com/index.html

Haha nice! I want that.
You can tell the diffrence in the way a car handles when you go from car, to car. But i guess what i said was kinda stupid..
I did get a kick out of the responses though!LOL:w00t:

[FleaDog]

Throughout this thread I've seen little attention been paid to particular aspects of tuning these cars in mention. In particular, the obvious 'infant' stages of tuning/modifying the n54 in comparison to the 'proven' history of tuning the subie/mitsu motors.

I'd hope those of you that are type to do so will be most interested in this. There would hopefully be for example (or if not already), dinan/bmw supported software modifications available, but from what I've read some of the other tuners haven't exactly 'ironed-out' all their issues... and I'm not talking aftermarket turbo's, intercoolers, external wastegates, methanol injection, etc... I'm talking about simple ECU reflashes to smooth out boost maps, AFR's, etc., to make some initial gains.

The subie/mitsu blocks have been around a while, and have many proven modification paths, with decent results. I am not foolheartedly discounting the n54 potential, time will tell.

You can pick up the subie/mitsu, have a wealth of parts already available, get the bimmer, ride the wave of new products, and likely pay moderate amounts to get them.

I personally take comfort in knowing there are countless reliable 400 whp stock block daily driven ej25's STI's out there.

It's a no brainer to me these obvious facts. I could care less about #'s, or editor reviews. They dont own, live with, have the car for their personal hobby, as well as daily driver.

I've got my eye on the 135i like all of you, but I'll wait a few years, see who blows motors & why, let bmw change what they need to change, let the vendors and products develop, study plenty of dyno graphs, compare parts, figure out what I want, pick up a decent used 135, buy your used parts for cheap, and then have my fun with a better peace of mind and some extra $$$ in the bank.

[hellrotm]

^^^

There are many ecu products already available for the x35i engine, many proven options. Version 1 software upagrades have already been succeeded by version 2 software upgrades.

Here is list of ecu upgrades:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105395

And waiting a couple years to see who blow motors in 135i's, is not neccessay. The power plant has been tested already by all the 335i owners.

If I were to get a Subi Sti, it sure wouldn't be the new one, its getting killed in all the reviews.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally Posted by FleaDog

Throughout this thread I've seen little attention been paid to particular aspects of tuning these cars in mention. In particular, the obvious 'infant' stages of tuning/modifying the n54 in comparison to the 'proven' history of tuning the subie/mitsu motors.

I'd hope those of you that are type to do so will be most interested in this. There would hopefully be for example (or if not already), dinan/bmw supported software modifications available, but from what I've read some of the other tuners haven't exactly 'ironed-out' all their issues... and I'm not talking aftermarket turbo's, intercoolers, external wastegates, methanol injection, etc... I'm talking about simple ECU reflashes to smooth out boost maps, AFR's, etc., to make some initial gains.

The subie/mitsu blocks have been around a while, and have many proven modification paths, with decent results. I am not foolheartedly discounting the n54 potential, time will tell.

You can pick up the subie/mitsu, have a wealth of parts already available, get the bimmer, ride the wave of new products, and likely pay moderate amounts to get them.

I personally take comfort in knowing there are countless reliable 400 whp stock block daily driven ej25's STI's out there.

It's a no brainer to me these obvious facts. I could care less about #'s, or editor reviews. They dont own, live with, have the car for their personal hobby, as well as daily driver.

I've got my eye on the 135i like all of you, but I'll wait a few years, see who blows motors & why, let bmw change what they need to change, let the vendors and products develop, study plenty of dyno graphs, compare parts, figure out what I want, pick up a decent used 135, buy your used parts for cheap, and then have my fun with a better peace of mind and some extra $$$ in the bank.

I should point out that the 4B11T just made its debut in the Evo X and I have a feeling that Mitsu will take 20 years to get it right, just like they did with the 4G63. That, coupled with poor warranty policy on the Evo X, and general concensus that Mitsubishi dealerships have terrible service departments, is definitely another strike against the Evo.

The EJ motor in the new STI however, has been around, is proven, and is easy for tuners to make power on. But on the flipside, it does suck that it's old technology...no direct injection or anything...

[E82tt6]

The N54 is making ~400whp with basic modifications: Downpipes, IC, intake, tuning. This is 100+ whp over stock, and both Evo and Sti require significant upgrades beyond basic boltons to get to that level, even upgraded turbos in most cases.

I know it's a generalization, but usually pushing less boost through a less extremely tweaked motor will yield better long term reliability. The Evo and Sti certainly have good powerplants, but based on what we've seen so far, they don't even come close to the N54 in terms of response to basic upgrades.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by E82TT6

The N54 is making ~400whp with basic modifications: Downpipes, IC, intake, tuning. This is 100+ whp over stock, and both Evo and Sti require significant upgrades beyond basic boltons to get to that level, even upgraded turbos in most cases.

I know it's a generalization, but usually pushing less boost through a less extremely tweaked motor will yield better long term reliability. The Evo and Sti certainly have good powerplants, but based on what we've seen so far, they don't even come close to the N54 in terms of response to basic upgrades.

I don't know how they could be expected to make anywhere near the N54's numbers. 3.0l's and twin turbos vs. 2-2.5l and a single snail.

They never had a fighting chance.

[MrRoboto]

We all know the 135 has 'deliberate' understear from the factory for safety sake. We recognize that most of it can be cured by replacing the tires. The main complaint I hear about the new STI is massive understear. Since this car has all the top drawer tires, suspension, etc. what can be dome to eliminate this? Isnt this what DCCD was suppose to cure?

[BMW Dreamer]

Man I wish this thread would be locked away for good.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

We all know the 135 has 'deliberate' understear from the factory for safety sake. We recognize that most of it can be cured by replacing the tires. The main complaint I hear about the new STI is massive understear. Since this car has all the top drawer tires, suspension, etc. what can be dome to eliminate this? Isnt this what DCCD was suppose to cure?

Subaru dials in understeer, just as BMW does, although to a lesser extend...with 60% of the car's weight up front, perfectly neutral isn't ever going to happen without giving up grip.

Larger sway bars, LOTS of front camber, stiffen up the rear, etc.

Heck some STi and EVO guys run wider front rubber than rear rubber...the anti-stagger if you will.

[JT-KGY]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Subaru dials in understeer, just as BMW does, although to a lesser extend...with 60% of the car's weight up front, perfectly neutral isn't ever going to happen without giving up grip.

Larger sway bars, LOTS of front camber, stiffen up the rear, etc.

Heck some STi and EVO guys run wider front rubber than rear rubber...the anti-stagger if you will.

I had my E36 M3 front camber more than -3.0 when I set it up for autocross
use.. anything less the car just understeers... Dont think the modified Evos
ran with that much camber. And I remember reading E46 SCCA Speedworld
challenge cars had -5.0 negative cambers. Also I ran same size tires
front&rear like the 95 M3s.

[JT-KGY]

Originally Posted by E82TT6

The N54 is making ~400whp with basic modifications: Downpipes, IC, intake, tuning. This is 100+ whp over stock, and both Evo and Sti require significant upgrades beyond basic boltons to get to that level, even upgraded turbos in most cases.

Evo IXs can make 350whp with just bolt-ons are tuning (fuel/timing only)
though... thats w/o touching the boost (no boost changes by ECU or
external manual boost controller). Not sure if they need swap turbo to
reach 400.

[JT-KGY]

Originally Posted by theslik1

Anyway, I love the GT series of games but I've never driven an EVO, STi , or 135i in real life. Since the GT game environment isn't quite 100% real-world fidelity I'd just consider it a rough approximation of the cars' abilities.

Programmers of GT series have never driven most of the cars in the game...
They change each car's horsepower, axle weights, spring rates, whether the
car is rear-drive, front-drive, or all-wheel drive, aerodynamics, and so on...

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...re+page-6.html

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by JT-KGY

I had my E36 M3 front camber more than -3.0 when I set it up for autocross
use.. anything less the car just understeers... Dont think the modified Evos
ran with that much camber. And I remember reading E46 SCCA Speedworld
challenge cars had -5.0 negative cambers. Also I ran same size tires
front&rear like the 95 M3s.

Not sure what the EVO guy do, but for road course and autox work on an Impreza, people shoot for 3-3.5+ up front, also depends on teh suspension setup of course. Butyeah, BMW's are notorious for running a lot of front camber though...its almost part of natural "look" if that makes any sense.

[JT-KGY]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Not sure what the EVO guy do, but for road course and autox work on an Impreza, people shoot for 3-3.5+ up front, also depends on teh suspension setup of course. Butyeah, BMW's are notorious for running a lot of front camber though...its almost part of natural "look" if that makes any sense.

Ya.. subies need a lot of front camber.
But all these talks of whether one car out handle the other on magazine
contests... a lot comes down to how agressive/conservative the suspension
setup from factory.

For example... Evo almost always out handles the STi. I believe, this is
because Evo can tune up to -2.0 front camber while STi gets like -0.5 or
something (E36 with -1.0). Of course, front double wishbones dont have this
problem.. but BMW, Evo, STi (and Porsche) all come with the cheap front
MacStruts setup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacPherson_struts

it is a popular choice due to its simplicity and low manufacturing cost

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by white911

I used to autocross. In fact my motorsports activity has been cyclical. First autocross a few years, then track events, then take time off. Repeated the cycle several times over the course of 30+ years. The time off may have been forced - military deployment, or job change or other. The motorsports activity includes autocross, racing, and DE.

My fiancé and I generally spend 30 - 40 days a year on the track and don't have time for the time involved with autocrossing as well. It seems with autocross, logistics demands are just as high as with the track. While the consequences of an error are more costly on the big track, autocross may place higher stress on drivetrain components. Maybe the cost of consumables keeps more BMWs and Porsches out of autocross. That said, I still think everyone should do a few autocrosses, they teach precision, balance, and car control in a low threat environment and they definitely do not reward over-driving the car.

Finally the thread seems to be about which car is faster - 135I against brand X. From my perspective it doesn't matter that much because most are still learning how to drive and I have seen huge disparity in all run groups. The driver is the weakest link in these car comparisons. Courses like Mid Ohio and the Shenandoah Circuit at Summit Point cancel out much of the 'my car is better then yours.' When you put a pro in your car, you find out just how much you don't know and sometimes it can be embarassing. It makes me realize how much I leave on the table.

For me the 135I is the perfect choice for daily commuting and an occasional low-key track event. If I could only have one car to fill the motorsports activity, daily driver, and travel car; it would still be the 135I. The WRX/STI is an outstanding car on the track and I had a student who absolutely crushed a Ghallardo and a 355. At the same event he was dusted by an Evo. On the other hand I had a student in an old Acura Integra that was dusted off both the WRX and the EVO. I wanted to replace the Boxster with a last generation R32, but the new one doesn't appeal to me. The Boxster is a beautiful car, but dreadful for commuting with no visibility for changing lanes.

+50
What a wonderful post! I concur with everything you have said. Slightly lees important is that comparo's between these cars become insignificant on the streets because the 135i has incredible tuning options for relatively low cost.

Neither the EVo or STI can have 384hp/421ft-lb of torque for around $2k, like you can get with a Dinan tune. Which, coincidentally is done at select BMW dealers.

So, when discussing raw performance and having all three duke it out on a track/road coarse track, if the 135i is bested slightly by the EVO MR, the BMW is still a better all around vehicle for highway, cruising and traveling. But I highly doubt the EVO MR will outpace the 135i on a track.

IMO

[rainman128]

hmm...seeing as you are on 1addicts and not the EVO X addict forum...i think you should just get the 135i

[BMW Dreamer]

^^^^^^DITTO^^^^^^