1er coupe U.S. price point???

[ZweierCoupe]

Originally Posted by larryn

the best you can do is guess, and say that the people in this country should be paying more.

In the general context of "guessing" there is certainly a big difference between unfounded, wishful thinking and taking a straightforward, analytical approach using published parameters that yield results which are actually corroborated when comparing with other indicators. Though everybody is entitled to express their hopes and insights, this doesn't mean that they're all qualitatively identical to each other.

Originally Posted by theslik1

That "1" in front of the "35i" defines the car as entry level in the U.S. whether BMW (or you) chooses to acknowledge that or not. That's how the car is going to be classed and reviewed by the American automotive press, and that's how the car is going to be seen by the buying public. Perception is key in this case...

Obviously perception is important, but who are you to tell us and the entire American market how the American motoring press will be presenting this car in their write-ups? Are you the chief editor of one of the top monthly car enthusiast magazines? And if not, maybe you ought to know that BMW still has more influence or leverage in controlling the public perception of this car through their advertising expenditures, so magazies are generally beholden to them to a certain extent. Besides, the term "entry level" is just a generic cliché term that refers more to price than anything else, so I think it's rather silly to get so hung up on these two words.

All it takes is for a sentence or two by some magazine writer enthralled by the handling and performance of the nicely equipped 135i loaned to him to clarify, in gushing terms, any misconception in advance, perhaps something like:

"while the leading number 1 on the trunk of this car may suggest entry level price, performance, and handling to the uninitiated, nothing could be further from this false assumption, for the 135i is anything but an entry-level driver's car..."

There you go, it'll be in print, stated authoritatively, and that'll be the end of the illusion. They can also point out the rational arguments I've already presented here and refer to the fact that, at an entry level price, the 128i is really a great car too.

As I've said before, the person getting the 135i will be a connoisseur and will not worry that a neighbor may possibly think they're driving a "better car" if they have a bigger (but less expensive) 328i parked in the driveway instead.

Probably not until well after the Detroit Auto Show next January, at which time the 135i will have already been so hyped up, will the 128i finally become available for test drives in warm climate regions, as well as the price lists for coupés and cabrios. If it is determined that the 135i cabrio should initially be advertised under $40K (for non-automatic canvas roof), this would make a $37.5K price for the 135i more likely, but don't expect any fancy options like adaptive xenon lights.

More about options is mentioned farther below.

Obviously the magazines will want to not just do "first drive" reports, without any independent data measurements, but also compare this car to other two-door vehicles with sporty characteristics on a racing circuit, like the Nürburgring. I think the following cars would be likely contenders for such a test, classified into three categories (based upon my educated guess):

(1) 135i easily wins on performance and handling (fun factor), plus lap time -

* Audi TT 3.2 Quattro (unless they compare it on a rainy day or in the snow)
* Infiniti G37
* BMW 335i
* Cayman (2.7 liter)
* Audi A5

(2) Too Close to Call -

* BMW E46 6-cylinder M3

(3) Very Close, Almost but Not Quite in the Same League -

* Cayman S (without the active suspension and ceramic brake options)
* Porsche 911 (3.6 liter, basic model)
* BMW M3 8-cylinder M3

Originally Posted by larryn

If you are right, you can gloat at your foresight, while you watch the majority of us buy a competitior's car. At least you'll be happy, I think, as BMW bleeds away profits.

Originally Posted by theslik1

I personally haven't entranced myself that BMW will be even remotely savvy about pricing...I'm simply saying (and I believe the market will bear out) that they will be punished if they choose to get too upwardly aggressive on the price, on a model that has not yet made its bones in the U.S. market.

This is more wishful thinking. I even detect a misguided and implicit presumption, that BMW's pricing policies for the 135i will possibly be adjusted downward simply in order to placate a few individuals posting to this forum, who pretend to be more knowledgeable about the American market than BMW itself, with its huge database of customer information, and are already predicting "punishment" if they don't price that highly desirable 135i to the level of an upscale Volkswagen Golf. I would think more than 99% of the purchasers of a 135i in the US next year do not even know about this forum, much less post opinions here. But this wouldn't be a bad forum for some BMW folks to get some chuckles. This thread seems like it's getting good readership ratings already.

Now I'm wondering which competitor's car all these professed 1-addicts will really be buying, out of spite, if the 135i price doesn't start as low as they had hoped, as it inevitably will. We'll have to wait until next summer to see, but it appears from numerous posts on this mater that most will get either the 128i, 328i, or 335i instead.

I'm sorry to have to repeat myself, but BMW factories are already running close to full capacity, according to reports and BMW executives I've talked to. That's one reason why they're going to expand capacity in South Carolina, for an SUV Coupé (X6), but that's still many months away. Drastically increasing market demand (through a discounted price) that can't readily be satisfied by significant production increases just doesn't make economic sense. We're talking about a mechanically complex product here, entailing billions of dollars in capital investments for production equipment. You don't have the same kind of elasticity as would be the case for a software company that increases their software download capacity or CD burning capacity.

Originally Posted by ibeam81

I won't even bother getting into his statements regarding the Japanese manufacturers.

Helllo?? (snap, snap) This is a forum about BMW cars, mind you. Pointing out the flaws and weaknesses of the brands that compete with the subject cars of this forum is perfectly fair game here! There's no justification for anyone being offended; that's the nature of car forums and explains why there are so many of them out there, on the Internet, to choose from.

Originally Posted by theslik1

Your implication that the major Japanese brands have no racing heritage or history of technical innovation in their own right is too delusional to refute.

This was definitely not an implication, please read more carefully. I was referring to many decades of brand and racing heritage and the respective museums that put more than half a century of this heritage on display. Yes, surely Honda and Toyota are big enough nowadays to play in the Formula One Racing game, but that's not generational heritage. BMW was producing engines during World War 1 already, and Mercedes has been producing automobiles for over a century.

Are you denying that Japanese manufacturers got big in part by copying other manufacturer's products (they still copy designs), just as Chinese manufacturers are doing nowadays? On the technical level, Toyota, for instance, became famous not for the technical sophistication of their cars but for their production system, popularizing terms like kan-ban and keiretsu. But today the benchmark factory in the area of production flexibility and logistics happens to be the Leipzig plant, where the 135i will be produced.

Since it's soon to be out on the market, and because others have referred to it, let's look at the Infiniti G37 as an example of what I was referring to when I mentioned taking shortcuts. In order to try to compete with BMW they're merely putting a bigger and heavier engine inside their car than before. No lightweight magnesium/aluminum alloy engine block, or direct injection technology, or twin turbo technology. In terms of technological sophistication, the G37 can't compete. Nissan is apparently counting on the fact, that most American consumers don't care about such nuances. Those relatively few who do will want to own a BMW instead. But when examining these differences, it makes no sense for BMW to price the 135i at the same level as the G37.

. . . . . . .

Now, notwithstanding all the fixation about introductory MSRP without the destination charge, what's more relevant is what the 135i will actually cost when displayed in dealers' showrooms or when all the must-have options are added up for an individual order.

From the German brochure, here is a list of most options for the 135i. The American car configurator might provide some help in determining the added costs.

* Metallic Paint
* High Gloss Shadow Line Exterior
* Leather Interior
* Child Seat Attachment for Front Seat
* Accessories Package (nets, cup holders, 12V outlets, etc.)
* Advantage Package
* Side View Mirror Package
* Comfort Package
* Dynamic Package
* M Sport Package
* 18" Wheels (Style 263)
* Various Interior Panels other then Aluminum (Wood, Black Gloss, Silver)
* 6-Speed Automatic Steptronic Transmission with Paddle Shifters
* Active Steering
* Cruise Control
* Park Distance Control (Rear)
* Park Distance Control (Front and Rear)
* Adaptive Headlights for Curves
* Light Package (Doorwell, Door Handles, Make-Up Mirror, Footwell, Ambient Lighting, Reading Lamps)
* Rain Sensor and Automatic Headlight Activation
* Solar Protection Layer on Windshield
* Xenon Lights (Close-Up and High Beams) with Headlight Wipers, Automatic Leveling, Day Running Lights, and Helical Rings
* Automatic Climate Control with Solar Sensor, Condensation Sensor, Microfilter
* M Style Leather Steering Wheel
* Multifunction Steering Wheel Functionality
* Heated Front Seats
* Electrically Adjustable Seats with Memory Function for Driver Seat
* Front Armrest with Storage Space
* Front Cup Holders [Certainly to be a Standard Feature on US Market Versions]
* Electrical Glas Sunroof
* Rear View Mirrors Anti-Glare Functionality
* Comfort Access
* Ski Sack
* Bluetooth Interface
* Navigation System "Business" with 6.5" Color Display
* Navigation System "Professional" with 6.5" Color Display
* 6-CD Changer in Trunk
* Hi-Fi Speaker System
* Professional Hi-Fi Speaker System
* Professional Radio
* USB Interface
* Speech Recognition System
* BMW Driver Assist Telematics
* BMW Online Telematics Service

Now that's quite a long list, and a few inexpensive convenience items will certainly come as standard in the American versions. This list also gives an impression regarding how much pricing flexibility BMW has. But most of these options don't come cheap, and dealers will want to include many of them in their 135i models for the showroom and instant sales. Guys from the motoring press will likely get nicely loaded cars for their first impressions (they'll probably like this car a lot) but fewer of them for the road performance comparison tests. I think it's fair to say, that a nicely loaded 135i will not go for under $40K.

Regrettably, I likely won't be able to afford such a fully featured car. But I'm not going to go whine about it, like some spoiled pussy, and spitefully predict BMW will be punished in the marketplace for not making it available at the price level of a Volkswagen. Instead, I'll just contine to drive the car I already own.

[Brookside]

Obsession as content.
Admirable...Treatable.

[bavarianbutcher]

I could honestly swear he wants this thing to be expensive....

[mikeo]

Originally Posted by bavarianbutcher

I could honestly swear he wants this thing to be expensive....

It will not affect him one way or the other if it is expensive in the US, he's in Germany.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by ZweierCoupe

Since it's soon to be out on the market, and because others have referred to it, let's look at the Infiniti G37 as an example of what I was referring to when I mentioned taking shortcuts. In order to try to compete with BMW they're merely putting a bigger and heavier engine inside their car than before. No lightweight magnesium/aluminum alloy engine block, or direct injection technology, or twin turbo technology. In terms of technological sophistication, the G37 can't compete. Nissan is apparently counting on the fact, that most American consumers don't care about such nuances. Those relatively few who do will want to own a BMW instead. But when examining these differences, it makes no sense for BMW to price the 135i at the same level as the G37.

This is a terrible argument and one that really shows how annoyingly arrogant you can be about BMW and their technology. Granted, Im a big fan of BMW technology but to dismiss the G37 as technologically insignificant in comparison to the 135i simply because it is a Nissan and doesnt have twin-turbo technology is highly ignorant. Coming from someone who apparently places BMW on a such a high throne, it is ironic to hear that a high-revving, 330 horsepower, six cylinder engine with the equivalency of Valvetronic being described in such a way as it is a concept that has defined the BMW M3 through the E36 and E46 generations. Substitute the six cylinder part, and the high-revving, light-weight engine concept is still alive. Additionally, you are completely ignoring the chassis technology both in terms of a limited-slip differential and in active rear steering, both features which are not available on the 135i. Let's not also forget that in terms of in-cabin technology, the 135i will certainly carry no huge advantage over any car it competes with. It's an entry level car regardless of how many times you try to dismiss simply because it has a more powerful engine and an aerodynamic kit. You rant and rave about brand image and then ignore the fact that if that were true, than the 1 Series badge and the 3 Series badge would mean a lot to the consumer. Therefore, pricing the 135i damn-near close to the 335i levels puts the consumer to chose between a badge with a low image or a badge with a high image. According to your analysis, the consumer will be much more likely to go with the car with a better image.

[InsaneSkippy]

Originally Posted by MPower

This is a terrible argument and one that really shows how annoyingly arrogant you can be about BMW and their technology. Granted, Im a big fan of BMW technology but to dismiss the G37 as technologically insignificant in comparison to the 135i simply because it is a Nissan and doesnt have twin-turbo technology is highly ignorant. Coming from someone who apparently places BMW on a such a high throne, it is ironic to hear that a high-revving, 330 horsepower, six cylinder engine with the equivalency of Valvetronic being described in such a way as it is a concept that has defined the BMW M3 through the E36 and E46 generations. Substitute the six cylinder part, and the high-revving, light-weight engine concept is still alive. Additionally, you are completely ignoring the chassis technology both in terms of a limited-slip differential and in active rear steering, both features which are not available on the 135i. Let's not also forget that in terms of in-cabin technology, the 135i will certainly carry no huge advantage over any car it competes with. It's an entry level car regardless of how many times you try to dismiss simply because it has a more powerful engine and an aerodynamic kit. You rant and rave about brand image and then ignore the fact that if that were true, than the 1 Series badge and the 3 Series badge would mean a lot to the consumer. Therefore, pricing the 135i damn-near close to the 335i levels puts the consumer to chose between a badge with a low image or a badge with a high image. According to your analysis, the consumer will be much more likely to go with the car with a better image.

I agree...I couldn't have said it better myself.

[BForbes]

Everybody is so hung up it will be cheap because it is entry level. I was doing that at one point to but not anymore. We simply cant compare a price of 34-35k to the 335i sedan, which starts at $39,675. Coupes demand a higher premium. We must compare it to the $41,000 335i. I dont believe BMW would give us a car with the N54 motor for less that the $7,000 the 335i. $5,000 is more do-able, which would put us at 37ish. To price a 135i so low would be a slap in the face to the 535i also. I mean that thing would cost 17,000 more if the base is 33k. I suspect that the msrp of the 135i will chase away more than half of the people on here.

[bavarianbutcher]

Originally Posted by mikeo

It will not affect him one way or the other if it is expensive in the US, he's in Germany.

Im curious. Zweier have you ever been/lived over here in the States? If so how long?

[InsaneSkippy]

Originally Posted by onehots2k

Everybody is so hung up it will be cheap because it is entry level. I was doing that at one point to but not anymore. We simply cant compare a price of 34-35k to the 335i sedan, which starts at $39,675. Coupes demand a higher premium. We must compare it to the $41,000 335i. I dont believe BMW would give us a car with the N54 motor for less that the $7,000 the 335i. $5,000 is more do-able, which would put us at 37ish. To price a 135i so low would be a slap in the face to the 535i also. I mean that thing would cost 17,000 more if the base is 33k. I suspect that the msrp of the 135i will chase away more than half of the people on here.

I personally guess the price will be between 37-38k. However, I don't foresee anything changing my from getting this car. It's just too damned awesome :roundel:

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by InsaneSkippy

I personally guess the price will be between 37-38k. However, I don't foresee anything changing my from getting this car. It's just too damned awesome :roundel:

Yeah I'm a little bummed out but that means there will be less of thes twin-turbo's running around. Same here. I will do whatever it takes to make 37k work for me.

[atr_hugo]

We still haven't seen any driving impressions from independent sources - but I'd be surprised if we won't here soon. My guess - mid-August from 'leaks' - suspect that BMW will want to embargo that info. Also I mentioned earlier that a 7% price hike across the board would bring a potential pricing scenario for the 135i to ~ $37K. I can't remember the last time a manufacturer hiked prices by that large a percentage across the board. Maybe someone else can.

[LonghornTX]

Originally Posted by theslik1

You speak in absolutes with which I have to respectfully disagree. The problem is that you don't seem to recognize what may or may not compete within the 135i's segment in the U.S. market. Trust me, it won't exist in a marketing vacuum. You can be quite certain that competitors already have the 135i firmly in their crosshairs. Go to E90post and observe how much cross-pollination exists between E9x drivers and "others", which include EVO, STi, GTO, GTI, G35 drivers, etc. The idea that the 135i won't be cross-shopped against Mitsubishi ,Subaru, Infiniti, VW, et al is patently ludicrous. The key phrase here is entry level. Take a good look; you're going to be seeing it again and again in reference to the 1-series and that is going to set the price expectations for the entire model line. As much as BMW would love to tack their usual "heritage premium" on the 1, entry level will put the kibosh on that to at least some degree.



I don't think you've backed anything up solidly, but unfortunately I do agree it's a 50:50 shot that BMW will screw this up and price the 135i at that level.

By the way, I enjoy the debate. :smile:

I agree. The 135i, though without any DIRECT competitors (i.e. any that share the same body style, intention, and price point), will have MANY IN-DIRECT competitors when it is launched.

[LonghornTX]

Originally Posted by InsaneSkippy

I personally guess the price will be between 37-38k. However, I don't foresee anything changing my from getting this car. It's just too damned awesome :roundel:

Yea, I am getting one regardless of where the base starts, it just means I will probably have less coin for options....

[theslik1]

Originally Posted by LonghornTX

I agree.

Nope. I take everything back. Zweier has convinced me that it's vital...I say again absolutely VITAL...that BMW stays true to its racing heritage, technological history, premium brand image, along with a list of 50 other items and price the 135i accordingly. Did you you know that all of these traits are exclusive to German manufacturers and that they've never ever copied anything from the Japanese? Consider me enlightened.

Accordingly, since the 135i will occupy a special BMW-only market niche and will never have any direct competition, I humbly suggest that they price it at $50K with cloth seats, crank windows, and no A/C. We all know that BMW isn't actually required to sell a single one; they merely need to maintain a premium image with the accompanying illusion of exclusivity.

I'm done. Just let me know when I can buy one (if BMW will let me...I may not fit their profile of a "premium customer"). I'll be over in the forced induction threads...I'm sure Zweier will be chiming in any day now with how every mod should cost $10K. You know, "premium image blah blah blah..."

[mikeo]

Originally Posted by theslik1

... (if BMW will let me...I may not fit their profile of a "premium customer

Yeah, not unless you are a member of the Arian race.

Edit 10/4/07: Did I ACTUALLY say that without dropping a 'winking happy face' on it? :redface:

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by theslik1

Nope. I take everything back. Zweier has convinced me that it's vital...I say again absolutely VITAL...that BMW stays true to its racing heritage, technological history, premium brand image, along with a list of 50 other items and price the 135i accordingly. Did you you know that all of these traits are exclusive to German manufacturers and that they've never ever copied anything from the Japanese? Consider me enlightened.

Accordingly, since the 135i will occupy a special BMW-only market niche and will never have any direct competition, I humbly suggest that they price it at $50K with cloth seats, crank windows, and no A/C. We all know that BMW isn't actually required to sell a single one; they merely need to maintain a premium image with the accompanying illusion of exclusivity.

I'm done. Just let me know when I can buy one (if BMW will let me...I may not fit their profile of a "premium customer"). I'll be over in the forced induction threads...I'm sure Zweier will be chiming in any day now with how every mod should cost $10K. You know, "premium image blah blah blah..."

I enjoyed every second of that post.

I would also like to stress that I respect what Zweier puts into his posts but I do strongly disagree.

[theslik1]

Originally Posted by MPower

I enjoyed every second of that post.

I would also like to stress that I respect what Zweier puts into his posts but I do strongly disagree.

Thank you.

I have to respect the sheer length of Zweier's posts. And I thought I was windy... :biggrin:

Seriously, I'm not discounting at all that BMW will price the 135i using his rationale. He is completely correct that I disagree with such a strategy for purely selfish reasons , although I think I have some solid U.S. market-based reasons for believing as I do. If his scenario pans out, I'll probably head back towards the 335i because the 1 will no longer be an attractive value play (for me, subjectively). It ain't a loss either way, except for a few bucks I was planning to spend anyway.

By the way, if you're curious, there's a lot of yapping going on about G37 coupe pricing over on G35driver; it seems that a few are now seeing the 335i as a better value.

Edit: Ok now I'm done. Maybe.

[Genericuser1]

We won't know until we know, no reason to get worked up about it. Keep in mind a few things. An A4 of C class starts around 30k and these are 3 series competitors. The Japanese start theirs around the same price but they compete against the 330 and now 335i.

NA is BMW's largest and most important market, it doesn't mean they will cater to us alot on price but they can make up for a slightly lower price by volume alone. If the 1 series is successful they can always move production to the US to offset currency issues.

Just because the performance of a BMW might approach some Porsches doesn't mean they will price it higher. Keep in mind a C6 Corvette will outrun A 911 Turbo on a track and costs less than half as much.

I think it will come in at 35.5 myself but then we'll all see in several months. There are more than enough alternatives so if they price it too high I'll just pick something else more reasonable and probably more powerful.

[CeeTeeX5]

I sure hope you are all correct expecting the car to be in the mid 30's. I'm hoping to be able to be out the door in one of these for under 40k when its all said and done!

[DM1]

Does anyone have any updates on how much would the 135i convertible will be?

[135floridafan]

im 17 and ive got a job as a waiter and im saving up for a 128i. i think its a sharp car and plus i love bmws and this car is perfect because its no more expensive than anything else. Bmw i think is aiming more at like 17 to 28 year olds with this car but thats just my opinion lol.

:roundel:~Brandon~:roundel:

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by DM1

Does anyone have any updates on how much would the 135i convertible will be?

Expect at best case, a 3 grand price increase over the 135i Coupe. But, again, we will have to wait for BMW to release the pricing information.

BTW, bring back this thread has forced me to relive some tough days in 1addicts history...