Camber plate install?

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by Stupenal

Can you go through the process of how you manhandled the spring to slide the top hat and camber plates on? The reason I'm asking is because my new struts are in the halfway extended position and I'm contemplating how best to tackle the top hat installation.

I found a post on bf.c that talks through the use of wiring to hold the springs compressed and snipping the wiring once the top hat is on, but that sounds more like a broken face and lots of blood than solving the problem.

Thanks!

Once you have the nut started a couple of turn, there's no risk snipping the wire.

You have two options:

1. Use multiple spring compressors (if your single pair doesn't work) to compress the spring enough.

2. Use something (tape, rubber strap, vice-grips with a rubber pad!) to hold the shaft extended, and use one set of spring compressors.

I was able to use a pair of spring compressors to get it up in the fender, and jacked it up into the tophat, but some people don't like that around there I guess.

What struts did you buy that are only halfway extended?

[Blacksport]

Ah, the beauty of coilovers....just crank the adjustment plate down and whammo! easy install.

Try this: Before you disassemble the top, take a small hose clamp and tighten it around the strut/shock shaft just above the housing...open it first, wrap some black tape around it so it won't damage the strut top, then work it inside the spring, close it and tighten it....that should keep the shaft from retreating into the strut housing....

[mlifxs]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Once you have the nut started a couple of turn, there's no risk snipping the wire.

You have two options:

1. Use multiple spring compressors (if your single pair doesn't work) to compress the spring enough.

2. Use something (tape, rubber strap, vice-grips with a rubber pad!) to hold the shaft extended, and use one set of spring compressors.

I was able to use a pair of spring compressors to get it up in the fender, and jacked it up into the tophat, but some people don't like that around there I guess.

What struts did you buy that are only halfway extended?

I like your idea about jacking into the tophat / camber plate. If my camber plate install gets stalled by the top nut issue, I'm going to give it a try. If any limbs or fingers get severed as a result, I'll post pics.

[Ginger_Extract]

Originally Posted by Stupenal

Can you go through the process of how you manhandled the spring to slide the top hat and camber plates on? The reason I'm asking is because my new struts are in the halfway extended position and I'm contemplating how best to tackle the top hat installation.

I found a post on bf.c that talks through the use of wiring to hold the springs compressed and snipping the wiring once the top hat is on, but that sounds more like a broken face and lots of blood than solving the problem.

Thanks!

- Pulled the strut from the carrier, which is a total bitch in these cars! These sum'bitches DO NOT want to come out of the carrier. Loosen the carrier bolt almost until it's completely undone and wedge your pry bar in there and bludgeon it with a hammer. I didn't have a pry bar, but a solid steel wrench worked just an well.

-Found a small closed end wrench, pushed it over the strut shaft, and threaded the OEM top nut onto the strut shaft. I used this as a pulling device, to get the strut to extend. Giving it a good hard yank, and then wrapping the base of the strut shaft with duct tape so it would not recede any further. I did this perhaps a half dozen times until the strut seemingly had no more to give.

- From there, Seated the spring onto the perch, and seated the top hat/camber plate assembly on the spring as it would normally sit. I then marked the spots that would allow for the absolute maximum amount of spring to be grabbed and compressed. If you give up even a centimeter of usable space, you will not be able to compress the spring enough. Using four spring compressors, I cranked all of them down to their absolute maximum (be very careful, that's a lot of tension...).

- At this point, I reassembled my mock up strut and spring assembly, and I was still an inch or two short of where I needed to be. You'll notice that the top hat, OEM or otherwise, is two pieces, the top hat (metal bowl w/ upper rubber spring seat) for the spring, and the upper strut mount that sits on top of that, and mates it all to the chassis. I pulled the camber plate slider (top piece) off to see how far off we really were from reaching the top nut threads.

NOTE: This technique DEMANDS two people to accomplish

- Leaving the camber plate slider off, with only the upper spring perch on top of the spring, the strut shaft threads were only maybe 1/2" from poking out. Standing the strut up on it's base, I put all of my weight into "bouncing" the strut assembly while a friend tried to thread the top nut onto the strut threads. After a few good "compression cycles", we were able to accomplish this much. We threaded up the top nut so all the threads were grabbed. At this point, the compression action, combined with threading the top nut pulled up the strut shaft a little bit further, giving us a little bit more to work with. We also repositioned the compressors again, since that additional bit of travel gave us more spring to grab.

- With that done, we carefully undid the top nut, put together the full camber plate assembly, and using the "bounce" trick, were able to eventually get the top nut to thread the strut shaft with the full strut/spring/camber plate assembly ready to go.

I will be doing a full write-up on my racing blog with reference pictures, including how much compression is necessary, and where I found best to put the compressors, etc. Good luck.

[Stupenal]

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[Stupenal]

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[Ginger_Extract]

Where are you located? I'm in SoCal too, and come swing by to try and lend a hand. Sorry to say, but dampers have to treated with brute force and a BFH so they will bend to your will.

[Ginger_Extract]

Originally Posted by Stupenal

The wire idea scares me in that for a period of time, the only thing compressing the springs will be metal wires. Knowing how much force is coiled up in those springs and the thought of it letting go before the top nut is fully secured gives me goosebumps. Once the hat is on securely I'm sure there will be still a little pop as the wires are cut and the spring unloads a bit.

Regarding your options:

1. I'm more concerned that even with multiple spring compressors, i'll need to use the top of the spring as a hold point to compress it to the appropriate size. At which point the compressor anchor will get in the way. Tricky to do, as stated, but was is necessary to do the job

2. I'm not sure how much you can extend the shaft using just your hands. I'm thinking I can extend it maybe 1" max. Use my previously mentioned method for pulling strut shaft, I was able to get a solid 3-4 inches from it.

3. Using the control arm/knuckle to act as the compressor: Given that everything is going in at an angle, as another member posted, things may go "sideways". Correct, I wouldn't trust that at all. My methods were scary enough.

For reference, these are the Eibach pro dampers - see my thread here:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=940393

See my thoughts in bold.

[fe1rx]

When it comes to mods, there is a school of thought that says if it take more than one pair of hands and if any sweating is involved you are doing it the hard way, which is to say, wrong.

For example: if you insist on removing your front brake calipers by removing the socket head cap screws that are permanently installed with Loctite instead of by using the two hex head bolts that are not - you are doing it wrong.

Another example: if you don't loosen the inboard bolts securing the lower suspension arms to the front subframe before you remove the strut, you are fighting the bushings - and doing it wrong.

Final example: if the steering knuckle doesn't pull off the bottom of your strut with nothing more than hand pressure, before you undo the upper mount, you are working way to hard. (And if you are using a chisel rather than a spreader tool, you really are a glutton for punishment.)

Unfortunately someone has to learn these things the hard way - which is the point of this forum. One picture being worth a thousand words - I took this one tonight to demonstrate what I have said above.

Tomorrow I promise to demonstrate the easy way to get an OE spring back on an OE strut with a camber plate and with the shaft of the strut retracted in that annoying way that it has. No sweating will be involved, but it will require a little preparation, and I ran out of time tonight ...

[Ginger_Extract]

I agree completely. I have prior experience working with strut-based suspensions, and I have NEVER met such resistance doing what should be basic install work.

Curious to see what innovations you can bring forth for the betterment of us all! Conversations like these are the ones that help out everyone in the end.

[fe1rx]

Originally Posted by Ginger_Extract

Curious to see what innovations you can bring forth for the betterment of us all! Conversations like these are the ones that help out everyone in the end.

To clarify the problem:

1) This is the strut fully extended.


2) This is the strut in its neutral or favoured position, which is about 2 inches shorter than fully extended. This makes it very difficult to get the spring back on.


3) I made an aluminum clamping block to clamp the shaft.
Strut Shaft Clamping Block.pdf

4) Ideally this goes on before removing the spring, then the shaft never retracts and getting the spring off and then on again is normal.


5) If the strut is already retracted, put the clamping block on loosely, stack some 1" nuts on the shaft as spacers, add a large washer and a plain nut. Tighten the nut as far as it will go to extend the strut.


6) Tighten the clamping block and remove the plain nut.


7) Add another spacer and repeat until the strut is fully extended.

(back at the fully extended reference mark I made)


8) Here are the "tools" needed:

[Ginger_Extract]

Do you have a picture of the whole strut/spring assembly?

[fe1rx]

Here is the OE assembly with a GC street camber plate.

A further hint, it helps to hook one of the spring compressors under the lower spring perch rather than on a spring coil. That effectively gives it one more coil to compress.

[Hops128i]

Originally Posted by fe1rx

Final example: if the steering knuckle doesn't pull off the bottom of your strut with nothing more than hand pressure, before you undo the upper mount, you are working way to hard. (And if you are using a chisel rather than a spreader tool, you really are a glutton for punishment.)

How did you do this? Every video (bav auto, ecs tuning, youtube), and every forum DIY has the strut coming out of the fender before taking it out.

[Ginger_Extract]

Originally Posted by Hops128i

How did you do this? Every video (bav auto, ecs tuning, youtube), and every forum DIY has the strut coming out of the fender before taking it out.

I've done it that way on other cars before. Back off the strut-knuckle clamp bolt, and push down on the knuckle until the base of the strut pops out.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by fe1rx

W
Final example: if the steering knuckle doesn't pull off the bottom of your strut with nothing more than hand pressure, before you undo the upper mount, you are working way to hard. (And if you are using a chisel rather than a spreader tool, you really are a glutton for punishment.]

Agreed on the first part. On the second, while the spreader would be a nice addition, how is a couple of hammer strikes onto a chisel making someone "a glutton for punishment". You're talking about literally a 20 second operation to open up the knuckle with a chisel. Hardly "punishment".

Not sure it's just me, but I found your post to be pretty condescending, although I could be reading into it wrong.

You are certainly not the first person to post the above-operation BTW...but to read your post, you certainly act like you think you are.

[fe1rx]

Originally Posted by Hops128i

How did you do this? Every video (bav auto, ecs tuning, youtube), and every forum DIY has the strut coming out of the fender before taking it out.

Loosening the bolts securing the tension rod and wishbone to the front subframe really helps. Otherwise you are fighting the bushings. When you loosen these bolts it comes off very easily.

[fe1rx]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Agreed on the first part. On the second, while the spreader would be a nice addition, how is a couple of hammer strikes onto a chisel making someone "a glutton for punishment". You're talking about literally a 20 second operation to open up the knuckle with a chisel. Hardly "punishment".

Not sure it's just me, but I found your post to be pretty condescending, although I could be reading into it wrong.

You are certainly not the first person to post the above-operation BTW...but to read your post, you certainly act like you think you are.

I am newly converted to the spreader tool. I have used the chisel method numerous times and of course it works. Sometimes it falls out. Sometimes it whacks the indexing pin. The beauty is everyone has a chisel. It is just that after finally getting a spreader tool, I have to tell you it works so nicely I wish I had gotten one sooner.

With respect to your other comments, my original point was if it is hard to do, you are probably doing it wrong. The great efforts the OP went to to get his strut assembled (and I have to admit, that I went to the first time I did it) was definitely the hard way. I am just happy to share an easier way when I find it, and it was very timely that I actually needed to disassemble my struts this week. (I am tossing them.)

I have noticed that some methods that are clearly wrong take on a life of their own because they get repeated often enough. Removing the front caliper with the socket head cap screws is a case in point. I wish that was the correct way to do it, because those fasteners are more accessible, but it isn't.

When it comes to removing the strut, I have used the swing out method without loosening the front bushing bolts, and I have used the drop the spindle bracket method without loosening the front bushing bolts, and I have dropped the spindle with the bushing bolts loose and the last method is by far the easiest. It is also the method recommended by Bentley in the E9x Service Manual - so no, I sure didn't invent it!

[Hops128i]

Originally Posted by fe1rx

Loosening the bolts securing the tension rod and wishbone to the front subframe really helps. Otherwise you are fighting the bushings. When you loosen these bolts it comes off very easily.

How easily? Is it you able apply more force to the knuckle in this method? Do you need to take off the rotor too?

When i took my strut out, i needed a spreader tool (just used a 6or8mm hex socket AND a screwdriver to keep the knuckle spread in order to take the strut out and put it back in.

I have to wonder why bavauto and ecs tuning don't use the method in their videos, they have a vested interest in making it easy to work on the suspension. Not that I doubt what you've done is better, i'm just wondering why it's not practiced more.

[fe1rx]

Originally Posted by Hops128i

How easily? Is it you able apply more force to the knuckle in this method? Do you need to take off the rotor too?

When i took my strut out, i needed a spreader tool (just used a 6or8mm hex socket AND a screwdriver to keep the knuckle spread in order to take the strut out and put it back in.

I have to wonder why bavauto and ecs tuning don't use the method in their videos, they have a vested interest in making it easy to work on the suspension. Not that I doubt what you've done is better, i'm just wondering why it's not practiced more.

I am doing the brakes too so I took the caliper and rotor off for that purpose. It makes things lighter to do so but is not necessary. Loosening the bolts at the inboard suspension arm bushings is key. When you don't have to fight the bushings you can feel exactly how it wants to slide off. This does mean removing the undertray but that is a small effort.

Turning the wheel about one turn inboard helps too.

"My" method is definitely an easy one person job. Tilting the strut outward you kind of want one more hand to support the strut while removing the knuckle.

[fe1rx]

Before I said goodbye to my OE struts, I figured I would have a look inside.

The offending feature is a spring. My guess is so that the strut prevents a variety of springs from getting loose at full droop.

This strut had no pressure in it when I cut it open. I was surprised at how small the piston actually is.

[Ginger_Extract]

How much fluid leaked out? Or was this strut dead before you cut it up?