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10-07-2013, 07:28 AM | #23 |
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After having them for a while now, I can say that in the low speed stuff they are good but in higher speed corners the rear starts to oscillate. Not sure if this was there before I did the inserts. Just installed new tires and am going to have an alignment done this week so I will see if that is it.
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10-08-2013, 09:16 AM | #24 | |
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Did you already have the factory sport suspension?
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10-08-2013, 09:18 AM | #25 | |
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Interesting. So you are saying handling quality has decreased at higher speeds after installing the inserts?
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10-08-2013, 09:55 AM | #26 |
warranty denied.
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i ordered them from bumper superstore back in june. i'm lowered on eibachs, everything else is stock.
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10-08-2013, 06:50 PM | #27 |
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Well it's hard to say since I don't recall if this was there before. I suspect it was. And it's hard to describe what it's doing and I only experienced it going left. No high speed rights around here. I'm going to have the alignment checked hopefully on Thursday. Front subframe was dropped for a turbo replacement two weeks ago but the dealer says that they left the upper strut bearing in place as well as the tie rods. I'm hoping there is just a toe issue in the rear.
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10-09-2013, 09:01 AM | #28 |
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Thanks.
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10-09-2013, 11:58 AM | #29 |
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10-10-2013, 08:58 AM | #30 |
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That's key!
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10-16-2013, 11:48 PM | #33 |
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Hey so what's the verdict?
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11-16-2013, 06:15 AM | #34 |
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Sorry for the long wait. It was not the alignment, it was 2 bolts that locate the subframe on the PS of the car that were not tight. The reason I did not suspect the install was because I'm pretty meticulous and have 25 years of working on cars. But now that I'm older I must be losing a step, hahaha. The bolts are the 16mm ones that attach under the rocker. I tightened them down and now all is well.
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11-16-2013, 10:57 AM | #35 |
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Glad that got resolved. As a side note, these cars come "soft" from the factory. The subframe upgrade often reveals weaknesses in other parts of the suspension, but can be confused as being the problem itself.
The inserts are a great upgrade without having to spend several hundred $$. It's a good option, especially for street. Only thing I would consider upgrading the entire bushing if your car has very high miles. |
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11-19-2013, 08:33 PM | #36 |
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Great write up, and thanks for the DIY! Just a question for everyone. What are the torque specs for the E18 subframe bolts and also the 16mm bolts up front? Hoping to tackle this in a next week.
Thanks! Tim
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12-09-2013, 11:26 AM | #37 |
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Does the car sit a bit higher after the install? It looks like the inserts add space between the subframe and frame.
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12-09-2013, 09:21 PM | #38 |
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I believe the E18 bolts are ~57 lbs-ft. (75Nm). I don't know about the 16mm bolts, but went with German spec.
I don't believe the car sits higher. I think the upper mounts do not actually interfere with the position of the subframe. The bottom does, but that doesn't matter for ride height.
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12-09-2013, 10:28 PM | #39 |
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Thanks, I actually found an spec from E90Post and they list 100NM (~74 ft-lbs), so thats what I used. Likewise for the 16mm bolts, I just did it good old German goodentight.
Couple of comments on the install: Instead of using a box wrench, crescent wrench, etc. on the 16mm bolts, it is much easier to remove the plastic below. There are 3 little bolts (forgot the size) that hold on a piece that looks to be removable purely for this task. Like mentioned already, check your tools, because all our kits did not have an E18 socket, so we had to order one. It was mentioned initially to verify that the rear bushings stay positioned correctly, but also check the fronts. The lip on mine got caught while tightening the bolts. Just flip it out with a flathead (carefully) and re-check your torques. After driving a while with the new inserts, they are a dramatic improvement over stock. The rear actually feels connected to the car now, and I get a lot more feedback from the rear suspension. The squirm and squash during acceleration and turning was very much improved, and so far seems mostly gone (although I'm on snow tires now). Car feels more solid and better over bumps and uneven road as well. NVH did go up a bit, just like adding M3 front arms. It's not necessarily a bad thing, and gives additional feedback to the driver. Otherwise there are no squeaks, rattles, or problems. While they may not be as good as the M3 bushings, these are a great improvement to the car, and really finished up the suspension nicely. For $50 and an 1 hour install you can't beat it. Tim
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12-10-2013, 12:49 PM | #40 |
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I think I got the 75NM from an E46 manual, so if you found 100Nm in an actual E82 that's probably more right.
To add about ride height, if you look at the picture with my hand you can actually see the bushing sticks up quite a bit out of the subframe, and the insert only goes around that part of the factory bushing, not on top of it. Also (same picture) you see that clean surface on the car body where the bushing's inner metal piece directly contacts the car. Those still end up in direct contact once you torque everything down. The same is roughly true for the rear upper insert, though I didn't get a great shot of that. It wonder if we should add washers to the two 16mm bolts in the front brace since that brace definitely moves down where it connects into the subframe so it probably sits at a slight angle (downwards towards the rear of the car). I'm sure the middle of the two 16mm bolts doesn't actually close the gap between the brace and body, and the brace ends up sitting at a slight angle. It's pretty sturdy, but it also might get bent when tightening the middle bolt? I might go try to take a harder look at that. If I get a chance I'll report back. Whiteline's instructions are strictly for the E46 which doesn't have the brace.
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Last edited by Freon; 12-10-2013 at 12:55 PM.. |
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12-29-2013, 03:02 PM | #41 |
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OP thanks for this great DIY. Thanks to everyone on this thread for the comments, it convinced me to give the Whitelines a try. My car has over 120k miles so I try to be judicious about my investment in mods.
Just did the install today. I'm pretty noob so it took me a little over 2 hours. Not difficult, just many turns of the ratchet. I did the rears without undoing anything up front, then tightened them back up to make sure I was doing things right and could put the car back. For the fronts, I did one side at a time, first removing the front bolts and then removing the rear bushing bolt on that side. Gave me enough clearance to slip the top front insert in. It's raining in Tampa today, so my test drive was not very thorough. I can say that the car seems much more stable over dips on the expressway. Overall, very pleased with the results. I suppose the M3 bushings are better but this part costs less than the tool rental to install the M3s. |
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01-03-2014, 04:39 AM | #42 |
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Many thanks Freon for this DIY. Referring to this and the Whiteline instructions, I installed mine today.
My only difficulty was dropping the subframe enough, while be careful to avoid tensioning the brakelines on the LHS, for the upper front inserts to clear the alignment spigots (6th photo down in Freon's post). In doing so, I removed the diagonal brackets that hold the subframe (2x 16mm and 1 x 18mm bolts). Perhaps I was overly cautious, but with a bit of jiggling, I could just squeeze the upper inserts through the gap. From there it was straightforward. After a brief run, I can say 'so far so good' with no "skipping"/ axle tramp over minor bumps under acceleration, and importantly for a DD, no detectable change in NVH. No change in ride height either (~360mm wheel arch to wheel centre with stock non M-sport suspension). I hope to give it a more spirited run tomorrow for a better assessment. |
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01-06-2014, 06:49 PM | #43 |
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Just did the install of these today.....what a difference. From my short drive back home its helped quite a bit. Can't imagine what the M3 bushings feel like. Freon, your write up was the stuff....really helped out. Install wasn't too bad, front bushing can be a PITA, but overall pretty straight forward. For like $50 bucks....you really can't go wrong with these bushing inserts.
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