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10-18-2012, 05:32 AM | #23 | |
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10-18-2012, 06:03 AM | #24 | |
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Front sway CAN increase understeer, but in the 1ers case it actually makes it a bit easier to corner, makes the front more responsive. |
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10-18-2012, 11:01 AM | #25 | |
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I wanna know based on design why an increased size hampers performance. And possible see the test data, understand how many tests were done and if there were with the same drivers. Too many variables and not enough test laps can make a source unreliable. As far as i understand (and my knowledge base in suspension is not as strong as other areas) a stiffer rear staw bar is going to allow for the car to roll through the corners at an increased speed because it will more evenly balance weight distribution among the wheels, increasing traction on the inside wheel. I.e. there wont be as much weight on the outer wheel. Of course an LSD that can balance the force between the two wheels will take advantage of this and increase the amount of throttle possible when moving through and exiting the corners without spinning the wheels. A proper driver without an LSD would roll the car through the corners and power out on the exits taking a different line to maximize speed in. From what i've learned, this method would be faster with a stiffer rear bar than the standard method of taking a corner with a balanced car. I've never seen a car get slower from a stiffer rear sway bar before when driven properly, but that doesnt mean it cant happen. Just trying to understand. |
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10-18-2012, 11:03 AM | #26 | |
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The steering of a vehicle is one singular motion. How can you increase oversteer and still have the same understeer? |
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10-18-2012, 03:38 PM | #27 | |
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10-18-2012, 04:31 PM | #28 |
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if you're car is setup too stiff you'll just slide around and won't be fast despite the lack of body roll. setup too soft and you will be slow recovering from excessive yaw. the trick is to find the sweet spot in between too stiff and too soft where a little mechanical grip along with many other variables (alignment, tire size/pressure, aero, etc.) can add traction and speed. also if you add grip to one end you'll lose grip on the other end. so depending on your driving style you can fine tune and get the car to do exactly what you want. most expert drivers prefer a suspension that is tuned to be a little tail happy. our cars suspension is tuned from the factory to understeer for obvious safety reasons considering the high hp and the propensity to oversteer and potentially wrap the car around a tree. finding that perfect balance is what all race teams strive for
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10-18-2012, 05:31 PM | #29 |
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Hm, poorly worded.. You can increase the tendency for the back to go out without increasing (or decreasing) actual front end grip... The front hits the corner first, if you go in hard, the front will lose traction before the rear even has a chance to lose it.
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10-18-2012, 05:33 PM | #30 | |
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10-18-2012, 07:45 PM | #31 |
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A stiffer bar puts more weight on the inside tire, how does more weight reduce its traction?
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10-18-2012, 07:46 PM | #32 |
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Gotcha, this makes more sense. I figured you ment it more in a driving style way than a singular moment way.
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10-18-2012, 08:02 PM | #33 |
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10-18-2012, 08:43 PM | #34 |
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Stiffen the bar = less body roll = more balanced weight = more weight on the inside tire than one with more body roll.
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10-19-2012, 05:00 AM | #35 |
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But my square setup is pretty neutral!
I want to add the front AND the rear bar. Wouldnt this keep the neutral behaviour? What can I do to have a more planted feeling?
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10-19-2012, 07:28 AM | #36 | |
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Purp Derp...i think this is the nicest and most constructive post you've ever made on here haha...thanks mate!
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10-19-2012, 11:14 AM | #37 | |
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this sounds pretty good @hp autowerks so am I right that with my square setup it will be pretty neutral and I get better traction?
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10-19-2012, 11:57 AM | #38 |
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def sounds like everything I`m searching for!
but because if the marketing thing I`d like to hear some opinions! But imo this should work out: square tire setup + m3 front AND m3 rear bar = same neutral feeling and more traction
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10-19-2012, 01:38 PM | #39 | |
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with those tiny tires in the back, its doubtful that you'll generate enough lateral mechanical grip on that axle to pick up an inside rear tire anyway. you may not run into issues with the diff, but if you don't, it'll only be because you'll be carrying less speed than you could be and therefore loading the axle less. take the diff out of the equation for a moment... adding a stiffer swaybar to the rear axle while also reducing the rear tire width from 245 to 225 is going to cause a substantial impairment on the grip generated by that axle. and for what its worth, in modern times, ac schnitzer is kind of a joke. more of an authority on hideous body kits than chassis dynamics. Last edited by fourtailpipes; 10-19-2012 at 01:44 PM.. |
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10-19-2012, 01:49 PM | #40 |
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AnooooOH, I know you're looking for a simple answer, but I don't think there is one.
You say you want "more stability" and don't want to loose "traction". But it's not that easy. Where/when do you want more stability? Autobahn blasting? Fast corners? Slow corners? It all depends... If you want more "Autobahn" stability, you're probably fine with a conservative alignment. An alignment can make a big difference in how the car feels. For long sweeping Autobahn turns, yes, maybe swaybars would help, but I'm not sure they'd be my first choice. What about traction? Do you ever loose it? Doesn't sound like you do. I highly doubt that any suspension mod that you've mentioned so far (swaybars or no bars) will make a significant difference for daily driving. A rear swaybar will show it's effect the most on tight turns on mountain roads or other aggressive, fast, tight corners. Regarding tires: A square setup is the best choice in my opinion for a good balance and quick turn-in on our cars. Note that "good balance" is not the same as stability. A naturally under-steering car will always feel more stable than a well balanced car that's ready to turn. If I had to start all over again I'd probably do this (and in this order): 1. Proper tires (Dunlop Star Specs; Michelin PSS etc.); 235 square probably 2. Camber plates and sportier alignment (note that this is for better turn-in; not stability) 3. Springs 4. Front swaybar 5. All 4 rear sub-frame bushings Note that the swaybar is 2nd to last in that list.... Unless you've already done 1-3, I'm not sure I'd bother at all. Now again, my goal is a well handling car, not a rail cart If you're so bent on swaybars and can't make up your mind. Why not get the front first, run that for a while and if you don't like it, add the rear swaybar later down the road. Who knows, you might end up saving a bunch of money that way if you decide the rear bar isn't needed (which most of us think here)... |
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10-19-2012, 02:31 PM | #41 | |
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10-19-2012, 02:33 PM | #42 |
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against my better judgement but, a corner where you can steer with throttle.
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10-19-2012, 02:47 PM | #43 |
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not to start a semantic digression, but isn't that every corner? ceteris paribus, what's going to determine if the swaybar is a significant piece of the equation or just irrelevant (like it is when driving around at 5/10ths)is the G load. throttle steering is a technique applied by the driver at will. the resulting effect of the swaybar may differ slightly, but a G is a G whether its happening on a long fast sweeper or a tight hairpin.
Last edited by fourtailpipes; 10-19-2012 at 03:15 PM.. |
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10-19-2012, 03:20 PM | #44 | |
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