Caution: for people who are thinking of tuners: Wastegate issue

Italteen3 · 03-09-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YYZATC

It seems that some feel that you could re-flash the ECU back to stock and bring the vehicle in for warranty work if a problem occurs. I wouldn't count on this. You can always tell when the ECU has been re-flashed on any ECU I am aware of. I think this would be a tell tale sign that you modded you vehicle and they will void your warranty.

I believe it is against the law to void your warranty if nothing is wrong with the car. Only in the case of something going wrong with the car as a direct result of the modification. Don't quote me on that though, but I believe I read it here on the forums.

ktdw · 03-09-2008, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

I think at this point is would be a good idea to stays away from Procede. It seems that was the biggest tune about 1 year ago and pretty much the only one. Seems that Shiv programmed for outright power and wasn't Conservative enough and now after months of use many people are starting to developer problems.

Personally, When I get my One'er I might just ante up for the Dinan tune. It's $600 bucks more but the tune is rock solid and no limp modes or issues.

So, if the wastegate issue is experienced by people running bone-stock, how is Dinan (as opposed to Vishnu, Helix, etc.) the prefferable tune? I would guess that the reason that you don't see this problem with Dinan cars is that the tune has only been out for several weeks now. It's only a matter of time, and when it does happen, I bet that the same dealers will blame the problem on Dinan. Is Dinan going to warranty all these wastegate failures? I don't think so...

asv · 03-09-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktdw

I bet that the same dealers will blame the problem on Dinan. Is Dinan going to warranty all these wastegate failures? I don't think so...

Every BMW dealer near me is also a Dinan dealer, so the scenario you describe would not be a problem.

ORIGIN M. · 03-09-2008, 03:26 PM

For now they are dealers. That is going away real fast.

Numb3rs · 03-09-2008, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktdw

So, if the wastegate issue is experienced by people running bone-stock, how is Dinan (as opposed to Vishnu, Helix, etc.) the prefferable tune? I would guess that the reason that you don't see this problem with Dinan cars is that the tune has only been out for several weeks now. It's only a matter of time, and when it does happen, I bet that the same dealers will blame the problem on Dinan. Is Dinan going to warranty all these wastegate failures? I don't think so...

Well, I am not so sure. I have tired to read all I can and have read every post Shiv has typed over at E90Post and it seems that his piggy can only do a certain amount of things at a time.

As of right now, Procede doesn't have use of throttle control (coming he says), so it is limited. That said, I wonder if Procede even has use full control of the wastgate's. There is a diagram of the wastegate variable mapping matrix in BMW's Engine management doc. I'm still trying to get ot the details but I don't think he has tied into and can control this manually.

Until more "tuner" failures pop-up, it will be hard to process the data.

Jake C · 03-09-2008, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktdw

So, if the wastegate issue is experienced by people running bone-stock, how is Dinan (as opposed to Vishnu, Helix, etc.) the prefferable tune? I would guess that the reason that you don't see this problem with Dinan cars is that the tune has only been out for several weeks now. It's only a matter of time, and when it does happen, I bet that the same dealers will blame the problem on Dinan. Is Dinan going to warranty all these wastegate failures? I don't think so...

At least with Dinan BMW can't then blame the issue on a non approved "tune".

- J

larryn · 03-09-2008, 04:09 PM

FYI, BMW doesn't approve of the Dinan tune. Dinan is supposed to cover warranty items that BMW deems is a result of the Dinan tune. It can lead to a finger pointing of who is responsible for a problem, with the owner's car held at hostage, while the two sides point fingers at each other.

I'm not saying that will be the case, but it has happened.

BMW is supposed to come out with their own tune. If they do, then that will be the only tune they "approve" of.

ORIGIN M. · 03-09-2008, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larryn

FYI, BMW doesn't approve of the Dinan tune. Dinan is supposed to cover warranty items that BMW deems is a result of the Dinan tune. It can lead to a finger pointing of who is responsible for a problem, with the owner's car held at hostage, while the two sides point fingers at each other.

I'm not saying that will be the case, but it has happened.

BMW is supposed to come out with their own tune. If they do, then that will be the only tune they "approve" of.

I opt to wait for that then. Thanks for setting the record straight.

Evolved · 03-09-2008, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Italteen3

I believe it is against the law to void your warranty if nothing is wrong with the car. Only in the case of something going wrong with the car as a direct result of the modification. Don't quote me on that though, but I believe I read it here on the forums.

Magnus vs Moss act

Quote:

Originally Posted by asv

Every BMW dealer near me is also a Dinan dealer, so the scenario you describe would not be a problem.

Main Line, Devon and Thompson are the only Dinan dealers in the area. On a slight side note, Otto's (which is 5 mins away from me) isn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by #1

I opt to wait for that then. Thanks for setting the record straight.

The factory flash will probably be very conservative compared to the other flashes available but that's just a guess on my part.

0002s · 03-09-2008, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evolved

Main Line, Devon and Thompson are the only Dinan dealers in the area. On a slight side note, Otto's (which is 5 mins away from me) isn't.

SO....you gonna jump and get a 1?

:biggrin::biggrin:

Evolved · 03-09-2008, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0002s

SO....you gonna jump and get a 1?

:biggrin::biggrin:

Only time will tell, the Evo is in the shop again and it goes on the market the day I get it back.

larryn · 03-09-2008, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evolved

Magnus vs Moss act

Good to bring that up.

There's a great Wiki on the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

It's a great consumer tool, and can successfully be used to fight injustices by dealers issuing blanket statements about "voided warranties". Just remember that you will have to produce subject matter experts, at your expense, to refute that what they claim was a result of your modification (and subsequent warranty service denial), really was NOT the cause of your service that is being denied. Also, be prepared to pay $$ to get those subject matter experts, because BMW employs many of them.

Yearofthe1 · 03-09-2008, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larryn

BMW is supposed to come out with their own tune. If they do, then that will be the only tune they "approve" of.

Larry,

where have you seen info on this BMW tune? I'm interested. Thanks for the info, btw.

larryn · 03-10-2008, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yearofthe1

Larry,

where have you seen info on this BMW tune? I'm interested. Thanks for the info, btw.

I thought it was in the BMW Performance Catalog, but I just checked and did not see it there. I read it on e90post before though. So, I guess it's with a grain of salt. My bad for potentially spreading a potential rumor, potentially of course. :wink:

Evolved · 03-10-2008, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larryn

Good to bring that up.

There's a great Wiki on the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

It's a great consumer tool, and can successfully be used to fight injustices by dealers issuing blanket statements about "voided warranties". Just remember that you will have to produce subject matter experts, at your expense, to refute that what they claim was a result of your modification (and subsequent warranty service denial), really was NOT the cause of your service that is being denied. Also, be prepared to pay $$ to get those subject matter experts, because BMW employs many of them.

I believe in the cliche "you pay to play". If you're going to mod your cars than be prepared to pay for repairs out of pocket.

adc · 03-10-2008, 02:22 PM

Just to dispel any doubts that the wastegate rattle happens on stock cars, it started happening on mine with less than 300 miles on it, in Italy during my Euro Delivery.

You cannot hear this with the windows up, and in some cases not even with the windows down if you are not close enough to a wall, row of cars etc.

It was in my 2nd day of ED and I was going up the Stelvio Pass, windows open of course to better savor the fresh mountain air (and exhaust noise), and I kept hearing this slight rattle coming from below the car. I just assumed it was a loose exhaust part or even more likely a heat shield.

I never worried about it because - as the SIB says - there is no loss in power from the engine. With time, the noise grew louder - but I also had the golf tee mod done - I attributed this noise to the exhaust flap valve just rattling about.

Now we'll see what the dealer does to fix it...

larryn · 03-10-2008, 02:41 PM

Adc, great to know. Thanks for posting!

From that TSB/SIB, it looked like they have no idea what it is, and they had to call regional representatives to make sure turbos are not being needlessly replaced.

One thing I've taken a peek at, and been concerned about, is the condition of the spark plugs on some othe cars, some with less than 20k miles, if they regularly use race gas. The ash residue is thick enough to cause misfiring. If the plugs look like that, what does the rest of the combustion chamber look like?

silvrevo · 03-11-2008, 12:47 PM

Congrats Evolved!!!!!! Your going to love da bimmer.

And as far as the Magnus v. moss act thing........How can you the owner, say that the increase in boost, hp, tq Wont lead to the breakage of any part attached to the engine?

It does after all call for an increase in output of the engine.

adc · 03-11-2008, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silvrevo

How can you the owner, say that the increase in boost, hp, tq Wont lead to the breakage of any part attached to the engine?

Would it affect the A/C compressor? The starter motor? The alternator? What about adding an unknown and untested electrical component directly inline with the ECU harness, such as the piggybacks? If something electrical gets fried in the engine, can the device be blamed?

That's the problem, you need to draw the line somewhere, which opens it up to various interpretations and makes it dependable on the customer's aggressiveness and the dealer's reason.

aus · 03-11-2008, 06:55 PM

That's why I'm getting the SSTT. I'll just pull it out of the car. It also doesn't mess with the solenoid, which some think may be causing some of the problems.

JOe335i · 03-11-2008, 07:21 PM

yea seems the SSTT is the best bet. it uses the stock boost level from the ECU. for example if u went up 5,00feet up into the pountains with ur car, your car would produce more PSI, up to 11.XX. the SSTT uses the same method in idea, and if ever a tech look at boost level, he would see they are under normal circumstances. for me this is very safe.

also, u dont have to even look at the ECU box, u plug it into the TMAP sensor and it doesnt scratch or wear antyhig out, no wires to play with. doesnt throw any codes or any limps.

some people might want more power and more adjustability, but for safe, reliable power, super easy install/uninstall its hard to be the SSTT.

yup, JMHO tho.

on topic unrelated from warranty work and or scare

it seems like a couple people have had this issue with a stock car. first the boost solenoid bypass was the rumor'd cause and now tuned cars, but both seem to be overcasted by stock engines have the same issue as was the HPFP!

i think the best info to get is build date of the car, maybe it has some kind of trend.

Smallbodybimmer · 03-11-2008, 10:32 PM

I concur. sounds like SSTT, FMIC, Forge DV, and intake (possibly drop in filter, though I like the way a cold air wil open up the engine sound). I should be able to convert back to stock from these mods in short order if need be. No point risking possibly screwing up the warranty. Sides, 335's are posting high 12's low 13 at the track with SSTT and drop-ins alone. Thats plenty fast for me for the time being. There will be plenty of time after my warranty runs out to make a run for 11's!!

03-09-2008, 03:26 PM	#26
ORIGIN M. Banned 3166 Rep 9,134 Posts Drives: ///M Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Northern Hemisphere iTrader: (0)	For now they are dealers. That is going away real fast.
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03-09-2008, 04:09 PM	#29
larryn Lieutenant General 2189 Rep 10,176 Posts Drives: '97 332ti, '21 X5 45e, '16 GT4 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Seattle iTrader: (2)	FYI, BMW doesn't approve of the Dinan tune. Dinan is supposed to cover warranty items that BMW deems is a result of the Dinan tune. It can lead to a finger pointing of who is responsible for a problem, with the owner's car held at hostage, while the two sides point fingers at each other. I'm not saying that will be the case, but it has happened. BMW is supposed to come out with their own tune. If they do, then that will be the only tune they "approve" of.
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03-10-2008, 02:22 PM	#38
adc Major General 2844 Rep 6,812 Posts Drives: 2018 F80 M3 ED Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: MD/DC iTrader: (12)	Just to dispel any doubts that the wastegate rattle happens on stock cars, it started happening on mine with less than 300 miles on it, in Italy during my Euro Delivery. You cannot hear this with the windows up, and in some cases not even with the windows down if you are not close enough to a wall, row of cars etc. It was in my 2nd day of ED and I was going up the Stelvio Pass, windows open of course to better savor the fresh mountain air (and exhaust noise), and I kept hearing this slight rattle coming from below the car. I just assumed it was a loose exhaust part or even more likely a heat shield. I never worried about it because - as the SIB says - there is no loss in power from the engine. With time, the noise grew louder - but I also had the golf tee mod done - I attributed this noise to the exhaust flap valve just rattling about. Now we'll see what the dealer does to fix it... __________________ 2018 991.2 Carrera T 2019 Z4 30i 2022 X2 M35i
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03-10-2008, 02:41 PM	#39
larryn Lieutenant General 2189 Rep 10,176 Posts Drives: '97 332ti, '21 X5 45e, '16 GT4 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Seattle iTrader: (2)	Adc, great to know. Thanks for posting! From that TSB/SIB, it looked like they have no idea what it is, and they had to call regional representatives to make sure turbos are not being needlessly replaced. One thing I've taken a peek at, and been concerned about, is the condition of the spark plugs on some othe cars, some with less than 20k miles, if they regularly use race gas. The ash residue is thick enough to cause misfiring. If the plugs look like that, what does the rest of the combustion chamber look like?
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03-11-2008, 12:47 PM	#40
silvrevo Captain 43 Rep 660 Posts Drives: M235v 6spd Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Location: Location iTrader: (1)	Congrats Evolved!!!!!! Your going to love da bimmer. And as far as the Magnus v. moss act thing........How can you the owner, say that the increase in boost, hp, tq Wont lead to the breakage of any part attached to the engine? It does after all call for an increase in output of the engine.
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03-11-2008, 06:55 PM	#42
aus Major General 1029 Rep 9,093 Posts Drives: Odysse Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Seal Beach, CA iTrader: (10)	That's why I'm getting the SSTT. I'll just pull it out of the car. It also doesn't mess with the solenoid, which some think may be causing some of the problems.
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03-11-2008, 07:21 PM	#43
JOe335i Lieutenant 33 Rep 525 Posts Drives: R32-08STI-e92335i Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: AUSTRIA iTrader: (0)	yea seems the SSTT is the best bet. it uses the stock boost level from the ECU. for example if u went up 5,00feet up into the pountains with ur car, your car would produce more PSI, up to 11.XX. the SSTT uses the same method in idea, and if ever a tech look at boost level, he would see they are under normal circumstances. for me this is very safe. also, u dont have to even look at the ECU box, u plug it into the TMAP sensor and it doesnt scratch or wear antyhig out, no wires to play with. doesnt throw any codes or any limps. some people might want more power and more adjustability, but for safe, reliable power, super easy install/uninstall its hard to be the SSTT. yup, JMHO tho. on topic unrelated from warranty work and or scare it seems like a couple people have had this issue with a stock car. first the boost solenoid bypass was the rumor'd cause and now tuned cars, but both seem to be overcasted by stock engines have the same issue as was the HPFP! i think the best info to get is build date of the car, maybe it has some kind of trend.
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03-11-2008, 10:32 PM	#44
Smallbodybimmer Second Lieutenant 10 Rep 222 Posts Drives: Join Date: Mar 2008 iTrader: (4)	I concur. sounds like SSTT, FMIC, Forge DV, and intake (possibly drop in filter, though I like the way a cold air wil open up the engine sound). I should be able to convert back to stock from these mods in short order if need be. No point risking possibly screwing up the warranty. Sides, 335's are posting high 12's low 13 at the track with SSTT and drop-ins alone. Thats plenty fast for me for the time being. There will be plenty of time after my warranty runs out to make a run for 11's!! __________________ AW/BL'ette/Sport/Cold/CA/IpodUSB [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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