1M vs 911 Carrera - which do you think is faster on track?

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by lacrosse

Having owned both, I would say that there is no comparison between the two. The 911 is far superior.

You haven't owned a 1M.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

You haven't owned a 1M.

And he's still hanging out in this forum

[lacrosse]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

You haven't owned a 1M.

Neither have you!

[lacrosse]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

And he's still hanging out in this forum

And your point is? Had I not had such an unreliable 1er and had BMWFS not jerked me around I just might have gone for a 1M. But that wasn't the case and I had a chance to step up into another league alltogether.

The bottom line is this is not a fair comparison. The 1M is not intended to be a 911 beater. My 08 135 could not beat my 06 997. I can assure you that a '11 1M will not beat a base '11 997 and certainly not a '11 997S

Stick to trying to beat Audi's.

[Haywood]

Originally Posted by lacrosse

And your point is? Had I not had such an unreliable 1er and had BMWFS not jerked me around I just might have gone for a 1M. But that wasn't the case and I had a chance to step up into another league alltogether.

The bottom line is this is not a fair comparison. The 1M is not intended to be a 911 beater. My 08 135 could not beat my 06 997. I can assure you that a '11 1M will not beat a base '11 997 and certainly not a '11 997S

Stick to trying to beat Audi's.

And how many days do you think your Porsche will end up being in the shop? I had a problematic '08 and negotiated to have BMW pay off my lease. Looks like you didn't do a good job in negotiating.

[lacrosse]

Originally Posted by Haywood

And how many days do you think your Porsche will end up being in the shop? I had a problematic '08 and negotiated to have BMW pay off my lease. Looks like you didn't do a good job in negotiating.

Hmm after almost 10 months of ownership my Porsche has spent far less time in the shop than both BMWs did during the same amount of time.
you don't honestly believe that BMWs are more reliable then Porsches?

I guess you would prefer to negotiate then drive. To each his own.

[jeremydgreat]

ssh. take it outside boys.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Agree... 1M vs Cayman S is a logical comparo based on price and performance, and I think the 1M would win that matchup..

I have a hard time believing that. Maybe in a straight line 1M can beat the cayman s, and that's the only dimension. In any bend Pcar (cayman s) can brake later and get on the accelerator faster because its engine is in the middle. A much better balanced chassis, though it won't drift as well. Don't matter how much you modify the suspension you can't put the I6 behind 1M driver's seat economically. On top of that CS has 320hp and weights 2976 lbs, almost 2 average full grown adult less than 1M's curb weight. If you add PDK as an option, CS and the 1M will be neck to neck with little effort.

Beyond tangible figures, I am certain CS is a more emotional machine than the 1M. Have you sat in the CS cabin? It's much louder, chatter resonating from the engine, and far more mechanical and less clinical than BMW's detached approach. Yes, CS is not for everyone. 1M will do the job of transporting business partner and clients better with its more matured philosophy. (No I haven't driven a 1M but one can extrapolate 1M's character from E92M3's pedigree.)

I know you have driven the 1M therefore I urge you to go test drive a cayman s and report back. I predict you will be disappointed with the off the line acceleration but remember to rev over 4000rpm if you can.

As for 911 CS vs. 1M, 997 911 CS runs same ring time as M3. If you guys think 1M can tie with M3 then perhaps it has a chance beating 911.

http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?fID...3&viewThread=y

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by lacrosse

Neither have you!

Never said I owned one...you did.

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by Robert

I have a hard time believing that. Maybe in a straight line 1M can beat the cayman s, and that's the only dimension. In any bend Pcar (cayman s) can brake later and get on the accelerator faster because its engine is in the middle. A much better balanced chassis, though it won't drift as well. Don't matter how much you modify the suspension you can't put the I6 behind 1M driver's seat economically. On top of that CS has 320hp and weights 2976 lbs, almost 2 average full grown adult less than 1M's curb weight. If you add PDK as an option, CS and the 1M will be neck to neck with little effort.

Beyond tangible figures, I am certain CS is a more emotional machine than the 1M. Have you sat in the CS cabin? It's much louder, chatter resonating from the engine, and far more mechanical and less clinical than BMW's detached approach. Yes, CS is not for everyone. 1M will do the job of transporting business partner and clients better with its more matured philosophy. (No I haven't driven a 1M but one can extrapolate 1M's character from E92M3's pedigree.)

I know you have driven the 1M therefore I urge you to go test drive a cayman s and report back. I predict you will be disappointed with the off the line acceleration but remember to rev over 4000rpm if you can.

As for 911 CS vs. 1M, 997 911 CS runs same ring time as M3. If you guys think 1M can tie with M3 then perhaps it has a chance beating 911.

http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?fID...3&viewThread=y

Based on the times the 1M could have a chance against the 911. It's suppose to better the E46 ring times so who knows. If it comes close I would be happy...it's 1/2 the cost of the 911.

Also depends on the track.

8:17 - 911
8:22 - E46M3

[Mu Mu]

Comparing these two cars is like comparing rice and potatoes.

[Robert]

I think few of us here wanted the 1M to be a giant slayer like past M3s who can hold their own against much higher powered and priced competitors. However, being an after thought and constrained by resources I dont think out of the box 1M will make quite as large splash than its predecessors.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Agree... 1M vs Cayman S is a logical comparo based on price and performance, and I think the 1M would win that matchup..

a 1m would destroy a Cayman S - the 135i already takes out the Cayman S on a straight line

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Matador

a 1m would destroy a Cayman S - the 135i already takes out the Cayman S on a straight line

Against a Gen I manual Cayman S, that's true. Against a gen II pdk I suspect 135i will have the jump 0-40 then Cayman S will catch up 60-100. Gen 2 Pdk runs 1/4 mile in around 13.0-13.2 out of the box.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by formula M

My $0.02

Think on it.. Nobody within this forum is qualified to answer this. Even the testers didn't get full measure of the 1M, due to 3 days of rain. One of them races and even suggest that the 1M is crafty enough to hang with a 911, depending.

So uber speculating is ridiculous, lets just say that since we are all comparing the 1M's potential to the like of the Cayman & 911, that the 1M is special and unique.

Once it's out, we all know it will be put to the test by the media.


It is an interesting concept (Porsche chassis vs BMW) & one I am interested in seeing played out. Everyone should be aware of the inherent advantage Porsche has & that it's legendary formula and compactness is all sports car... so BMW not surpassing, takes nothing away from the 1M, as it's a touring car first. Thus, even if the BMW chassis (and over-all performance) nearly equals that of a Porsche... it's still a win for BMW enthusiast.


Each of these cars are in different segments. So, cross arguments just comes down to what common roads, tarmac or driving experience we all share. Those combined values, are our bias for each car's said virtues. (IE: back seat, trunk, price, fuel consumption, performance, handling, acceleration, etc..)


Me? I like the 911, but like my Z06, on long rides or traveling, the car was wholly uncomfortable. My BMW's were upright & fatigue was never an issue. I could endlessly pilot them...

I am looking forward to the 1M.

Once again I applaud Formula M for distilling this down to the simple facts.
If the 1M, a sporty version of a sports coupe platform exceeds what is undeniably a sports car, then that is essentially one of the highest compliments that can be paid. If it falls short, then it really should not be a surprise.


Porsche Carrera specs
345 hp @ 6500 rpm
288 ft-lbs torque
0-60 4.7 s
Curb weight3,075 lbs (1,395 kg)
$77,880


I mean.. really.. if the 1M is faster around a track than a 911 Carrerra that has a 225 lb weight advantage and costs more than 50 percent.. perhaps double depending on the 911 model.. .. that's getting spanked. While of course it's fun to think and dream of such things.. but in reality, Porsche and BMW are not really competitors. BMW, Mercedes and Audi and of course by extension their perfromance lineups compete... . BMW M, Mercedes AMG, and Audi RS. Some of the M employees and several participants actually had quite a discussion of this over a few beers in Leipzig.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

While of course it's fun to think and dream of such things.. but in reality, Porsche and BMW are not really competitors. .

This exactly. For those don't agree, do you consider a KIA or Hyundai as legitimate competitor to BMW if they have a car with similar performance specs? If the answer is no and with some ignorant justification such as "I will be driving home in a BMW" then Porsche is the same way to BMW as BMW is to Hyundai/Kia.

[lacrosse]

Originally Posted by Robert

This exactly. For those don't agree, do you consider a KIA or Hyundai as legitimate competitor to BMW if they have a car with similar performance specs? If the answer is no and with some ignorant justification such as "I will be driving home in a BMW" then Porsche is the same way to BMW as BMW is to Hyundai/Kia.

AMEN!

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by Robert

This exactly. For those don't agree, do you consider a KIA or Hyundai as legitimate competitor to BMW if they have a car with similar performance specs? If the answer is no and with some ignorant justification such as "I will be driving home in a BMW" then Porsche is the same way to BMW as BMW is to Hyundai/Kia.

Lets get back to reality here.

BMW, Porsche, etc are all premium brands. Depending on the model they are absolutely competitors. There are lots of folks who cross shopped the 135 with the Cayman, the M3 with a 911, or the Z4 with a Boxster.

As for the 1M. It will be a unique package that may not out-perform the 911 but will likely get pretty damn close at 1/2 the price...good enough for most of us I bet.

I certainly would choose to have a brand new 1M in my driveway over a six year old 911.

[lacrosse]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

Lets get back to reality here.

BMW, Porsche, etc are all premium brands. Depending on the model they are absolutely competitors. There are lots of folks who cross shopped the 135 with the Cayman, the M3 with a 911, or the Z4 with a Boxster.

As for the 1M. It will be a unique package that may not out-perform the 911 but will likely get pretty damn close at 1/2 the price...good enough for most of us I bet.

I certainly would choose to have a brand new 1M in my driveway over a six year old 911.

We were back to reality!

Price wise the 135 does not compete with a Cayman. Nor does a M3 compete with a 911 (for comparison purposes a nicely optioned M3 comes in around $72K, a base 911 starts at $77K). Performance wise they don't compete either as both the 1M and M3 are sports coupes where the Cayman and 911 are more sports cars. Nor were they meant to compete. It is OK to like both!

And I think it is great that you would prefer a new 1M over a six year old 911 (that would be a 996 btw, and for the price of your new 1M you might get a very high milage 996TT - no contest there as to which is the better car). To each his own.

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by lacrosse

We were back to reality!

Price wise the 135 does not compete with a Cayman. Nor does a M3 compete with a 911 (for comparison purposes a nicely optioned M3 comes in around $72K, a base 911 starts at $77K). Performance wise they don't compete either as both the 1M and M3 are sports coupes where the Cayman and 911 are more sports cars. Nor were they meant to compete. It is OK to like both!

And I think it is great that you would prefer a new 1M over a six year old 911 (that would be a 996 btw, and for the price of your new 1M you might get a very high milage 996TT - no contest there as to which is the better car). To each his own.

Reality meaning the Kia/BMW comparison...

72-77k sure does compare. A ~10% difference is in the same ball park. Just as you said (could get a nicely optioned M3 or a base 911 at a greater price). We are talking about a 1M which will be ~40% less then a 911.

Porsche being at a premium price, most including yourself, have opted to go for a CPO Porsche to keep costs in check I suppose.

And you are right, there is no contest which is the better car between the 1M and a very high mileage 996tt.

[lacrosse]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

Reality meaning the Kia/BMW comparison...

72-77k sure does compare. A ~10% difference is in the same ball park. Just as you said (could get a nicely optioned M3 or a base 911 at a greater price). We are talking about a 1M which will be ~40% less then a 911.

Porsche being at a premium price, most including yourself, have opted to go for a CPO Porsche to keep costs in check I suppose.

And you are right, there is no contest which is the better car between the 1M and a very high mileage 996tt.

If you were to option a 911 the same as the M3 you are looking at closer to, if not over $100K. Just don't see the comparison. To me they are not in the same league.

Kudos to you for wanting the 1M. I hope that you are happy and it fulfills your dreams. I know that I could not be happier with my 911 and I am very glad that things worked out the way they did. I am having a ball modding it and taking my driving to another level.

[roo97ss]

the price argument goes on and on, in so many ways. When most people cross shop it's about price, yes but probably moreso car type. I mean 60k can buy you an escalade, a 1M, genesis sedan, etc.

High performance luxury sports coupe, seats 4, goes fast, has a trunk, can be used for the family and friends. I see things like the g37s (not really) 1M, M3, S5, upcoming RS5...that's about it.

Then there's the crossover to High performance sports coupe/car, purpose built to go fast, 2 seats, small trunk, for you to Drive, not really to be driven in. Here I see things like corvette (z06/zr1), gtr, 911, R8, etc. with more entry models like TTS, lotus, cayman, etc.

I personally don't see the cayman, the 911 as competitors to the 1 or 3 for true shopping. I mean sure we might look at both and choose the porsche because it motivates us more and we don't need a practical car or we buy the BMW because it's nearly as fast...but adds a backseat and usable trunk.

To me the Boxster/Z4 and cayman/z4 coupe are truly cross shoppable cars, even though pricing may not be right on. Porsche really has no competitor in my mind to the 1, 3 or even really 5 (the panamera maybe).

Think about it, talking value for a new car; a GTR is probably the only logical ultra high performance car. Sure it's 85k, but it's nearly at the top of the heap, and a true bargain compared to most everything else it's competitive with