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09-01-2011, 10:48 AM | #23 | |
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HPDEs does help to understand the car's limits. But that doesn't apply to the streets at all because if you're getting anywhere close to those limits (and not only for a BMW, any car really), than you're an irresponsible prick who's putting people's lives in danger. 95% of the driving done in an HPDE doesn't apply to the streets at all. In fact, the only learning I take is how the brakes respond (how fast I can stop the car in case of an emergency), and maybe how the car responds in the wet (if like me you had the chance to track it in the wet). and even then that's not 100% correct because if I were driving in the wet on the streets I wouldn't be going that fast and I (as most ppl) don't really mess with traction control for DD. the other essential point of driving on the streets that I can think of is to know how the car would react if I had to jerk it to either side while going fast if I had to quickly to dodge from something. and you don't get into that in an HPDE.. you learn to be "smooth" all the time, which doesn't really teach you much for the streets. if it were an event to learn the characteristics of the car, it would be more like what they have at the PDC in south carolina.. skidpads with wet and dry areas, slaloms, etc. out on the streets you don't do 120mph, you don't aim for the apex of curves, you don't point people by to pass you, you don't stick to your driving line and let the other person go around (you get to the right lane!).... you get the point. and last but not least, it wouldn't be timed if it weren't a competitive event and there wouldn't be trophies and rewards for people who can go faster..! let's be serious, I love HPDEs, love driving on the track, love going fast, and love the competition.. but let's not be hypocritical and let's admit it's a hobby, not a chance to improve your driving skills for use on the streets! |
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09-01-2011, 10:54 AM | #25 |
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in BMW world a few mods = $$$$$
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09-01-2011, 10:58 AM | #26 | |
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I mean the tires aren't track tires exactly but they work, suspension is great, camber is there, LSD is there.... it's probably more of an upgrade to cooling components. unless of course you wan't to be super hard core and built a monster track toy. you can always improve any car, whether it's a 1M or a Porsche. |
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09-01-2011, 11:08 AM | #27 | |
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I guess it is always a compliment when the chief stewart / Trainer comes up to you in false grid and commends you on you over 80mph 4 wheel power slide coming down onto the straight that is know for making pretty little ARMCO / GUARDRAIL ornaments out of peolpls cars.... Well done bruno... and he is being Modest.. He was almost FTD but a pesky racer in a prepped car beat him...and not by much .. p.s i was behind him ( bruno), not the racer by about 2 seconds in my 128 AUTO !!!!... Its all about compromise and willing to accept the draw backs.. Personally i prefer my car set up for the street, which it is.. id say 70% strret and 30% track... I only track it 5 times a year ... thats only about 300 or 400 track miles out of 12,000 !!!! just my .02 and as the 2 sayings go: You gotta pay to play and How fast do you want to go???? How much money do you have ???
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09-01-2011, 11:25 AM | #28 |
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lol that was actually a very classy, well executed drift. I don't know how I managed to keep my cool. I thought I was gonna crap my pants halfway through it.
hey at least I learned exactly how fast the car can go on the wet. I'd say it's a learning to take out to the streets but not exactly. I was going faster than any speed limit would allow me to go on a dry straight road anywhere in the country, lol... |
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09-01-2011, 01:58 PM | #29 | |
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When I do an HPDE, I'm there to learn my car's characteristics and have a good time. Not as a competitive event. If I were there to compete, I wouldn't be bringing my street car. I'd be bringing a purpose built car. |
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09-01-2011, 02:15 PM | #30 | |
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Or are you saying you just go to learn your car characteristics for fun or sake of knowing its limits and potential, although you'll never need to drive it in that extreme manner out there? Last edited by N55_BBM; 09-01-2011 at 02:22 PM.. |
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09-01-2011, 02:35 PM | #31 | ||
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HPDE's are not usually timed, are mostly with an instructor, and are split between track time and classroom time and skidpad tiime (... More focus is on teaching than actual driving fast... Now TT'ing ( which we do ) is basically run what you brung and being grouped in similar vehicle / ability of driver and your asked to please not run into each other.. TT's are Timed and Trophies given and Point awarded for the season. I would suspect the HPDE's are a little less agressive on the cars than TT'ing is.... Just my .02 and observations carry on..
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09-01-2011, 02:53 PM | #33 | |
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Wheels and tires $1200 (255x40x17 Star Spec on TR motorsport wheel) Camber plates $450 (Vorshlag) EBC yellow pads, Motul 600 and Ti plates $500 |
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09-01-2011, 03:05 PM | #34 |
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I do it to have fun at the track, and I've had fun with worse tires, brakes, suspension, engine, transmission, etc., than the 135. So, it suits my track purposes fine, although there will certainly be mods in the future.
"Track car" could mean anything. Look at some of the cars in the Sportscar Vintage Racing Association. http://www.svra.com/SVRA/SVRAHome.ns...U?OpenDocument Those are "track cars." Having owned both, I have no problem saying that the 135 has better brakes, tires, and suspension, than a Triumph Spitfire. There are "grand stock" classes of races all over the place, where you take a stock clunker on the track and race competitively. They're called grand stock, because you aren't supposed to spend more than a grand. They enforce it, by requiring you to sell your car to anyone who offers you $1,000. The 135 is head and shoulders above those. My 2 cents. Taking the 135 to the track on Sunday, and taking the 135 and the 330 next month.
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09-01-2011, 04:08 PM | #35 | |
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I go to an HPDE to learn the characteristics of my street vehicle in various situations. What is turn in like at various angles and speeds. What is the car's behavior during threshold vs. trail braking. Understeer and oversteer characteristics. How smoothly does the vehicle transition weight at speed. And how do I react to the vehicle in all of these situations, whether at the absolute limit or not, and how to recover this particular vehicle in the event that I miscalculate something along the way. All of this done in a safe environment. Then I apply this to the street. It doesn't mean I drive at 9/10ths or 10/10ths on the street. It means I modify my driving habits to match the vehicle. The track also allows me to develop good driving habits (such as smooth driving, proper turn in at proper speeds, etc.) matched to the vehicles personality. And then make a few minor modifications, and do it all over again...having a great time driving the car on a race track and socializing with a good group of car people in the process. So to say there's not some entertainment value there would be incorrect. |
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09-02-2011, 02:17 PM | #36 |
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This.
Of course it's not a track car Very few production cars (almost none in fact) are 'track cars'.
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09-02-2011, 02:50 PM | #38 | |
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OTOH I can say that I do drive more safely on the street, because it's so boring compared to the track, I never try to have fun on the street anymore. |
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09-03-2011, 06:17 AM | #39 | |
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If you want to have fun and go a bit silly then do it on a track - not on the street!
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09-03-2011, 02:44 PM | #42 | |
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Anyhow, my question to you is this - can you elaborate on your experience you described above with your brakes? Specifically: 1) How can you tell you got air in your lines? 2) When you say "it gave by the end of the 2nd session", what exactly happened? Did your brakes, or lack thereof, put you in a dangerous situation? I just wanted to add that, although I wasn't running timed events, I did push my car quite hard, and recognizing it is a stock vehicle, I found it a blast to drive, overall very capable and my brakes held up exceptionally well.... my tires, well, that's another story, as you know. |
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09-04-2011, 05:14 PM | #43 |
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Just got back from 2.5 continuous hours on the track. Understeer and/or 4-wheel drift? Some, but some oversteer too; it just depended on the situation. Brake fade? None. Runflats? Not as sticky as I'd like, but they worked well enough for a G35 (or G37) and a WRX to go off into the dirt, trying to keep up or shake me. Sadly, they appear to have worn like they were made of granite, meaning I still don't get to replace them yet. Looks like I may never get to.
Overall verdict? I'll get rid of the runflats, but I always knew I would. I imagine that will mean a suspension upgrade, but I was eyeballing the BMW performance suspension anyway. Yep, it is a suitable track car in my mind, for awesome weekend fun (untimed and only moderately competitive enthusiast events).
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Because... grocery getter. Last edited by TX78666; 09-04-2011 at 06:32 PM.. |
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09-04-2011, 05:40 PM | #44 |
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Ok guys, I have an issue with a lot that is being said in here. Modifications are NOT, I repeat are NOT necessary for a beginner to take the track. I pray that a track newbie doesn't read this thread and think ther need, wheels, r comps, susp, etc. to run on the track. The only thing this car needs is an oil cooler, and when the RFT's are toast, replace 'em with some star specs or pss, something of that nature. After that, every mod you do is covering up shortcomings and hindering moving forward as a driver. As you get better do brake fluid, pads, and lines. But apart from that, you are set. The stock susp. is wallowy and frankly, this car feels like sh*t stock, but you know what, it means you can master weight transfer. Any time you are getting pulled on a straight by a vette, focus on exiting the corner faster, don't cheat and get a jb4. When you truly can outdrive the stock car (for us that will take thousands of track miles), improve slightly piece by piece. Everything needs to compliment your driving style. It is disheartening to see a beginner show up to the track in a car that is prepared for Paul Tracy to whip it around for hours. The 135 is already competent enough to cover up mistakes. Seriously guys, it's wrong and unfair to advice new guys they MUST buy $5k worth of parts when they're already in over their head.
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