M1 vs competition

[LeoHammer]

Originally Posted by adc

I have presented a few arguments against the Mustang in this post, but I think you are missing a few key points here:

1. Germany is not the entire Europe, other people might not be as conservative as you. Ex., Ferrari is not considered in best taste in Germany, quite the opposite of Italy.
2. The Mustang might not be so competitive in Europe once you add import duties and the 19.6% VAT. It is within grasp of many more people in the US.
3. If the Mustang is not officially imported in certain markets, service becomes a problem which may be unacceptable to a lot of people.
4. The 1 series Coupe is not the prettiest flower either.
5. Gas is very very expensive in Europe, so the market for cars that get Mustang-type of fuel economy is very very small, comprised of mostly affluent people. The only other M3's (or 335) I've seen during my last Euro Delivery were at the Ring. No 135i whatsoever. Many middle class people in Europe would never contemplate a Mustang - or an M3 - based on fuel consumption/tax/emissions reasons alone. For those with considerable disposable income who are contemplating an Eur 70K+ M3, saving Eur 20K to get the cheaper Mustang simply might not mean anything (they would want the best product, not the cheapest).
6. National pride is apparent everywhere. People will tend to favor the local brand over an import when everything else is roughly the same. You see more German cars in Germany, French cars in France etc. The Mustang being quintessential American also has to overcome the occasional dislike of many things American that sometimes manifests in Europe.


So while the Mustang has to overcome more hurdles for European acceptance, I don't get the feel that the bad "muscle car" connotations are the biggest one.

Very nicely put

[manuelf]

Originally Posted by adc

I have presented a few arguments against the Mustang in this post, but I think you are missing a few key points here:

1. Germany is not the entire Europe, other people might not be as conservative as you. Ex., Ferrari is not considered in best taste in Germany, quite the opposite of Italy.
2. The Mustang might not be so competitive in Europe once you add import duties and the 19.6% VAT. It is within grasp of many more people in the US.
3. If the Mustang is not officially imported in certain markets, service becomes a problem which may be unacceptable to a lot of people.
4. The 1 series Coupe is not the prettiest flower either.
5. Gas is very very expensive in Europe, so the market for cars that get Mustang-type of fuel economy is very very small, comprised of mostly affluent people. The only other M3's (or 335) I've seen during my last Euro Delivery were at the Ring. No 135i whatsoever. Many middle class people in Europe would never contemplate a Mustang - or an M3 - based on fuel consumption/tax/emissions reasons alone. For those with considerable disposable income who are contemplating an Eur 70K+ M3, saving Eur 20K to get the cheaper Mustang simply might not mean anything (they would want the best product, not the cheapest).
6. National pride is apparent everywhere. People will tend to favor the local brand over an import when everything else is roughly the same. You see more German cars in Germany, French cars in France etc. The Mustang being quintessential American also has to overcome the occasional dislike of many things American that sometimes manifests in Europe.


So while the Mustang has to overcome more hurdles for European acceptance, I don't get the feel that the bad "muscle car" connotations are the biggest one.

First off: I like your calm/mature way of responding

1) You are maybe right here. I only know france and italy a bit better. I can't recall having seen Mustangs there, but of course some M3s and overall many expensive BMWs... but that has not to mean anything.

2) You are definitely right here by comparing it to the prices in the US. The Mustang will be much more expensive. But lets assume a net price of 35 K$ for a Mustang. That translates to a price of about 32 k€ (including import and sales taxes together 30%). Then add 1200 € shipping and 2000 € technical modifications and you have spent less than 35k € for a ready to use Mustang. That is VERY cheap as you may know an M3 in germany costs without any extras around 68 K€. So although you have all this handling costs you still pay twice as much for an M3.

3) Accepted - this IS a huge handicap for the Mustang.

4) I like it very much - but ok, it's for sure debatable. But it's not debatable that the Mustang has a (and this is enforced by Ford) reputation as a lout redneck car. And it's also not seriously debatable that any ///M is much more conservative/retentive and therefore (at least in germany) socially acceptable.

5) Sure - gas is more expensive.... but the mustang fans here have repeatably stated that the fuel consumption of the Mustang is equal to the ///Ms. So this is not a pro or con argument.... and then you confused me by saying: they would want the best product, not the cheapest So you are saying the M3 is the best product compared to the Mustang?

6) I think we are not talking about the general non-enthusiastic car buyer here, who searches for a cheap all day car and doing so might then prefers a boring and cheap car of its local brand over another boring cheap car of a foreign brand. Here it is all about emotional/unreasonable and/or status symbol cars. And in this somewhat exclusive field you have roughly a 95:5 ratio cars going from germany in the US vs cars going from US to germany... and this is in my opinion mainly based on reputations that includes (in the sportscar segment) the "muscle car" style/attitude.

However - since all this is weak without really delivering statistics material concerning sales volumes in different car segments between different countries, in the end it's just a (my) opinion. And since writing that much in english is somewhat exhausting for me, I now give up

[adc]

Originally Posted by manuelf

5) Sure - gas is more expensive.... but the mustang fans here have repeatably stated that the fuel consumption of the Mustang is equal to the ///Ms. So this is not a pro or con argument.... and then you confused me by saying: they would want the best product, not the cheapest So you are saying the M3 is the best product compared to the Mustang?

Well of course, shouldn't be surprising if you look at my signature - I drive an M3 not a Mustang.

I've stated it before, I consider the M3 a better product and it fits me like a glove. Then again, I was willing to pay the entry price. If I hadn't been, I'm pretty sure I'd have taken a good hard look at the Mustang.

My point was that for people willing to buy socially and economically ruinous cars in Europe, the Mustang doesn't offer them what they want.

Here it is all about emotional/unreasonable and/or status symbol cars. And in this somewhat exclusive field you have roughly a 95:5 ratio cars going from germany in the US vs cars going from US to germany...

Agreed - the number of fast/fun/good/interesting US cars can be counted on the fingers of one hand. That shouldn't detract from the qualities of these few cars.

If a V8 Mutang were to cost Eur 35k in Germany (officially), which is the price of a bare-bones 125i Coupe, don't you think more young people looking for an exciting car would try it?

Again, in my opinion the problem is that the price suffers greatly in the translation - to the extent where other, finer, considerations start to become important.

And since writing that much in english is somewhat exhausting for me, I now give up

No no, keep it up, you're doing a great job. Worlds better than if I would write in German.

We're all just expressing opinions here, there is no absolute right or wrong. You also need to do a reality check every now and then - of those who are defending the Mustang on one level or another, the majority drive BMW's. So when time came to vote with their wallets...

[arrutled]

When I think about my next car there are really only three options that pop into my head and I dont mind if they arent in the same category. I want a car that will go from garage, to autocross, to the track, and to the grocery store. I want to feel good/proud about driving it along the way. I want it to be somewhat rare/exotic because that stirs the soul but not gaudy so that I feel ashamed of the money I have spent. The only three for me:

M1
Porsche Cayman S
Lotus Evora

[Vintage]

Originally Posted by arrutled

The only three for me:

M1
Porsche Cayman S
Lotus Evora

all very good choices

[LeoHammer]

Originally Posted by arrutled

When I think about my next car there are really only three options that pop into my head and I dont mind if they arent in the same category. I want a car that will go from garage, to autocross, to the track, and to the grocery store. I want to feel good/proud about driving it along the way. I want it to be somewhat rare/exotic because that stirs the soul but not gaudy so that I feel ashamed of the money I have spent. The only three for me:

M1
Porsche Cayman S
Lotus Evora

No one on this forum seems to like the new Boxter spyder? that car will do track work better than the 3 mentioned...it might only have 320 HP but it has a Curb weight of 2811 lbs! and it's just 3k more dollars than the Cayman S in the US.

http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/bo...oxster-spyder/

[arrutled]

a lot of tracks and clubs do not allow open roof cars to participate and thus is the only reason it cannot be on the list.

[manuelf]

Originally Posted by arrutled

When I think about my next car there are really only three options that pop into my head and I dont mind if they arent in the same category. I want a car that will go from garage, to autocross, to the track, and to the grocery store. I want to feel good/proud about driving it along the way. I want it to be somewhat rare/exotic because that stirs the soul but not gaudy so that I feel ashamed of the money I have spent. The only three for me:

M1
Porsche Cayman S
Lotus Evora

The Lotus surely has potential - IMHO that Toyota engine is it's weakest point... overall Lotus had always good chassis/suspension but every time I think back I thought: Why doesn't Lotus take its engine from an other OEMs shelf??

[BMW86]

Originally Posted by manuelf

The Lotus surely has potential - IMHO that Toyota engine is it's weakest point... overall Lotus had always good chassis/suspension but every time I think back I thought: Why doesn't Lotus take its engine from an other OEMs shelf??

+1

[grant]

Originally Posted by LeoHammer

No one on this forum seems to like the new Boxter spyder? that car will do track work better than the 3 mentioned

I'd prefer the Cayman S over the Spyder on the track. It allows more comfortable running in the rain and I always feel much safer on the track with a proper roof over my head. I expect that Porsche will offer a Cayman S with similar sportier/lighter features as the Spyder in the coming year as well.

[135BANDIT]

The BMW vs Mustang argument has failed to recognise my 2 most important reasons for owning both (albeit 42yrs apart)

1 Mustangs have and always will pull more chicks,scowls& general overall WOW factor than BMW - remember cars like horses back in the 1800s are still recognised for there looks first.
2 BMW will and has always pioneered an engineered complete power package (Drive train , Handling etc) - The mustang was built on COST firstly (no full chassis).

Oh and my nasty looking wall flower 135 is simply fantastic fun , just in a different way to my 1968 428CJ California Special muzzy.

Horses for courses - I considered the 2010 mustang but with $$ for RHD conversion, crap handling and NO warranty in Australia. Its an easy choice

Jimmy dean

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by LeoHammer

No one on this forum seems to like the new Boxter spyder? that car will do track work better than the 3 mentioned...it might only have 320 HP but it has a Curb weight of 2811 lbs! and it's just 3k more dollars than the Cayman S in the US.

Yes, the Porsche Boxter Spyder is maybe the best affordable track car ever build. Specially the price, as it cost only 7.000 € more than the Boxter S, compared to the price of M3 vs. M3 GTS. But I would rather like Porsche to build a Cayman RS, hard roof is just better. For this Reason I would take a Cayman S and put Boxter Spyder lightweight parts. (I anyway would not do this because I prefere front engine.)

Than about the Mustang, or any other American cars here in Europe, if not to speak about the importance of the image you have here in dirving BMW, Mercedes, Audi or Porsche, the main problem is maintenance.

[Jaguar66]

So in a Cayman S you would put in the lack of an air conditioner, and you would put in the lack of a hard top, (install a convertable top). Interesting. Perhaps the wheels, and maybe the battery are about the only other real weight savers.

[arrutled]

Originally Posted by RobMason

So in a Cayman S you would put in the lack of an air conditioner, and you would put in the lack of a hard top, (install a convertable top). Interesting. Perhaps the wheels, and maybe the battery are about the only other real weight savers.

lightweight doors too I beleive. This car has 20 more hp than ours and weighs 500 lbs less. I wouldnt talk bad about it. probly smoke the 1er in any kind of battle. I wish I could have one.

[grant]

Originally Posted by RobMason

So in a Cayman S you would put in the lack of an air conditioner, and you would put in the lack of a hard top, (install a convertable top). Interesting. Perhaps the wheels, and maybe the battery are about the only other real weight savers.

Rumored lightweight material for rear hatch, doors, front fender and possible Carrera 3.6L motor coming too...

[arrutled]

Originally Posted by grant

Rumored lightweight material for rear hatch, doors, front fender and possible Carrera 3.6L motor coming too...

source?

[grant]

Originally Posted by arrutled

source?

Friend who runs a Porsche internet site in Germany with personal factory ties. Nothing confirmed yet though.

[arrutled]

Originally Posted by grant

Friend who runs a Porsche internet site in Germany with personal factory ties. Nothing confirmed yet though.

Yeah, if they do that, sign me up.

[footie]

Originally Posted by grant

I'd prefer the Cayman S over the Spyder on the track. It allows more comfortable running in the rain and I always feel much safer on the track with a proper roof over my head. I expect that Porsche will offer a Cayman S with similar sportier/lighter features as the Spyder in the coming year as well.

You might be right.

I had a look at the Spyder while at the dealers with the brother, it's remarkable that in a country like I live where it rains only twice a year (once for 5 months and the other for 7 ) that they have sold three already, with one guys intending to use it daily or as much as possible.

Back to the idea of a light weight Cayman, I doubt Porsche would offer any more power, the sheer fact of the weight lose would give such a car incredible on and off track ability.

[ARES45]

Originally Posted by sparoz

Joy is Refinement.
Joy is Balanced.
Joy is Indulgence.

Joy is the dumbest campain ever.
Joy should go back to the drawing board.
Joy is never hearing the phrase 'Joy is'

[mixxer]

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Evolut...c/262882950647

405 hp on a mustang dyno with tune and exhaust!

[amdmaxx]

Nice, but where do u see that? I only see the thread for tuned guesses.

Originally Posted by mixxer

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Evolut...c/262882950647

405 hp on a mustang dyno with tune and exhaust!