Road & Track: Cayman-S vs Z4M vs 135i

[uofmtiger]

So I would have hated myself if I would have gotten the sexier looking z4m and then had to move to Colorado only to have a sexy but underperforming car.

I am not a fan of the Z4ms look. I do love the Cayman, though.

[whya1?]

Why all the number quoting and obsessive arm chair driving? A car is all about FEEL which is where in my and other peoples opinion the latest BMWs and 1 series falls flat. Yes, it has a wide powerband. Yes, it is fast and tunable. Yes, it handles well.

But it is missing a soul, or sense of something special. The Z4M is raw and even if it is slower it is a fun and engaging ride. Same thing with the Cayman, there is a reward for winding out the car. That great powerband makes the 135 feel like a freight train, for good and bad. No sense of increasing acceleration as you rev the engine, just torque. The car also isolates you quite a bit from exhaust, intake; all the mechanical sounds that get your blood going. All your are left with is torque.

That torque will sell a lot of cars on test drives as people go "WOW, this car is fast!" But once you live with it you notice the tradeoffs in feeling that were made to appeal to a wide audience. Great car; not so great sports car. Who cares if you are the fastest vehicle in the world if it is boring?

[mistermojorizin]

Originally Posted by DiscoZ

Search ZPost, Bimmerforums, etc. There is a guy who trapped 113 with 100lbs weight reduction and pulleys.

Who cares anyway, I just wanted to address some of the optimistic comments here. The 135i is a great ride, but it is nowhere close to the Z4M in stock form. However, it has benefits the Z4M doesn't like rear seats, lowe price, etc.

As for the 290whp comment, I would suggest that you take a look at the S54's torque curve; you will be surprised (and the new ESS tuning does quite well, a couple of people have got 317/318whp with the chip, exhaust/no-mufflers and the RPI scoop).

Regardless, I am not here to have a pissing match. I just wanted to offset the misinformation here. I know that just with a chip and pipes, the 135i will make sick power and always has the potential for more power. I've owned and tuned turbo cars extensively.

what misinformation are you talking about? just cause one guy trapped 113 with some mods doesn't mean that stock the car can barely break 104. its a quick car for sure, probably about as quick as a 135i stock. it ain't gonna trap 110 stock like you were saying in your earlier posts - just to correct some "misinformation."

[Pirate]

"POWER (the rate of doing WORK) is dependent on TORQUE and RPM." per: http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine...and_torque.htm

[Bizall]

Originally Posted by ARES45

So I would have hated myself if I would have gotten the sexier looking z4m and then had to move to Colorado only to have a sexy but underperforming car.

Exactly why it was an easy choice for me. It's so fun picking on N/A cars...all of them, not just BMW. 6000ft altitude is no fun in any N/A car...especially a performance oriented one.

[Heinzftw]

Even though it would be a drivers race. I believe step's would win almost everytime. And well if it's a manual, probably most of the time. If a young guy like me who's been driving for 4 years. Might not be as high!

[Sephiroth]

We focus so much on numbers, but we all know there is more to a car than numbers. I love the 135i, but if i could afford even a used Cayman S i wouldn't hesitate.

[ptack]

Apples and oranges. We're talking 2 pure sports cars and a 4 seat GT. Give the 1 it's due for running with the big dogs. It really is a very good value. I think the recent C&D track meet was pretty good demonstration of how well the car performs relative to others. I especially like the fact that it surpassed the Audi S5 which is also in that higher price range.

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by DiscoZ

Torque is only a significant factor until 40mph or so, when there is no drag.

Um, no.

As for the Z4 M Coupe supposedly trouncing the competition, it failed to beat the Cayman S in not only R&T and C&D, but also in Motor Trend. So let's automatically dismiss 3 independent sources simply because they don't match up with some Euro tests.

[Bizall]

The biggest thing to me was buying something with potential. By that I mean, the ability to modify things whether it be performance oriented or not, and the ability to afford to do those things. It seems quite a few have owned turbo cars before from the factory and know how easy it is to make them faster. Yes, the Cayman looks better and handles better I'm sure, but what the hell could you do to it that a "normal" income person could afford...not much. And to hell with leaving something alone...I want to make it better in my eyes.

[future135i]

Originally Posted by TP 135i

OK.....It's now been 7 weeks that I've been driving my 135. I just drove the Cayman S for the first time in the last 7 weeks (on Wednesday) to the dealer for a follow-up on its 20K mile service. It's a 35 minute drive, one way through the countryside (through the Maryland horse farm country). I'm not in any hurry, just cruising along and enjoying the ride. On the way home it hits me......this car feels like it has no power.....I've gotten so used to the massive torque of the 135 that the Cayman now feels "slow". Yipes!
So larryns' prediction has come true.
No disrespect to the Porsche, because it's still a fabulous car, looks great, handles like a go-kart and sounds wonderful, but the low end power is no match for the 135 in "normal" driving conditions.
Just thought that I'd share this updated driving impression.

That's how I felt when I test drove a Cayman S. It didn't have any power in the normal driving rpm's. I didn't rev it up to 5k with the salesperson next to me. It was a total disappointment.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by mistermojorizin

yea it may make 290whp, for like a second at 8,000 rpm, the 135i has a fat power band that makes it faster. also, the 135 can be tuned.

More misinformation. The Z4 M's motor produces 317whp (US spec) bone stock, and the power is not so peaky as Mistermojorrizin compels you to believe. It's actually producing near that peak power from 6,000 rpm upwards. Because of the popularity of the S54 M3, there are lots of parts available to beef up power or free up power. Lightweight flyweels, larger pulleys (10~11 crank hp), stock BMW Euro version exhaust (11 hp, 17 lb/ft), air filters, software, even superchargers for huge power.

More than that, a final drive ratio change is a popular mod for the Z4 M or M3. 1st thru 3rd gears in a Z4 M are appreciably taller than the 135i, which really well explains why a 135i is able to keep up in 0-60 and in the quarter mile (as the 135i is heavier and has just over 10% less whp--317 compared to 282). There's always more to things than most here ever realize or care to admit to. The Z4 M is simply geared more for a flowing track with a long straight and not Starbucks to Starbucks. Comparing these two cars (or the 135i to the Cayman S) is really apples to oranges regardless if a few paper stats are quite similar. Put the same rubber on all 3 cars and all these stats you hold so closely regarded will differ there again, especially stopping distances as this is a measure of tire grip and anti-lock systems as much as brake torque.

Personally, I'm on the hunt for a Euro version exhaust system. This alone boosts and smooths out the power and gives it the missing torque some seem to make such an issue over. Once again, foiled by BMW NA, but correctable. I did the same thing to my MV Agusta. Stock the bike produces incredible power so I really didn't need more, but the free flowing MV exhaust and race ecu smooths out the powerband and makes riding more enjoyable. I'm all about refinements. My Z4 M will get a new exhaust and KW V3 coilvers. Nothing else. It doesn't need more. But if I find an extra $4,000 in my pocket, it'll get sexy 6-pot Brembos (real Brembos, not what's on the 135i).

[esscolab]

This is getting tit for tat again. We all buy what we can afford within reason. Enjoy whatever car you have. Remember, there's always someone out there with a better/faster and more expensive car than yours. Accept it and move on.

[Joey_T]

Originally Posted by Balls

More than that, a final drive ratio change is a popular mod for the Z4 M or M3. 1st thru 3rd gears in a Z4 M are appreciably taller than the 135i, which really well explains why a 135i is able to keep up in 0-60 and in the quarter mile (as the 135i is heavier and has just over 10% less whp--317 compared to 282). There's always more to things than most here ever realize or care to admit to.

Can you back this theory up with some numbers?

P.S. don't forget about final drive ratio when calculating power crank-wheels.......

[MattD]

Originally Posted by esscolab

This is getting tit for tat again. We all buy what we can afford within reason. Enjoy whatever car you have. Remember, there's always someone out there with a better/faster and more expensive car than yours. Accept it and move on.

Couldn't agree more. I hate to say it, but this whole numbers game just seems to be err, very American. I know there are a lot of very sensible people on this site, but I just don't understand this obsession with dyno numbers and 0-60 times etc. At best they should only be used as an objective way of measuring improvements if you're tuning your car.

Who gives a shit about beating some random in a Mustang or something from the lights? Really?

Also, comparing a Cayman S to a 135i, whilst interesting, is just not even a vaguely valid comparison.

In the UK, a stock 135i is just under £30k and a Cayman S is over £44k, nearly 50% more expensive. That's before all the extras that you'll feel you pretty much need on a Cayman in order to get a reasonably well equipped car. I specced one fairly lightly in my view at £49k, which was just far too much for me personally.

The Cayman S is a genuine sports car, the 135i more of a mini GT.

2 seats versus 4.

Until direct injection makes an appearance on the Cayman S, fuel economy is considerably worse in general driving. Maybe not a concern when petrol is cheap in the US, but it's certainly not over here. Same applies to road tax based on CO2 emissions.

I could go on and on around either point but it's just not worth it.

If I could afford a Cayman S, I'd probably have gone for one at this point in my life as I don't need the extra space. To me it's clearly a more desirable car, but then again I'd rather have a Aston V8 Vantage over a Cayman S, and a Ferrari 430 over the Aston etc. ad infinitum

As for the dynos, 0-60s and red light racing etc., who cares? Unless you have a goal of creating the world's fastest/most powerful 135i/car or something, it just doesn't really matter. What about getting caught speeding, or causing an accident because you're driving faster than conditions and ability allows? If people want to act like utter wankers just cos they've got a fast car then that's their prerogative, but I still find it faintly embarrassing.

Just enjoy driving what you've got while we've still got the chance, before the enviro-fascists stick us in crappy electric cars that will actually be more polluting on an end to end basis anyway, until we've got fuel cells blah blah blah

[lacrosse]

Originally Posted by esscolab

This is getting tit for tat again. We all buy what we can afford within reason. Enjoy whatever car you have. Remember, there's always someone out there with a better/faster and more expensive car than yours. Accept it and move on.

Very true. Unless you own a Veyron. :wink:

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by Joey

Can you back this theory up with some numbers?

P.S. don't forget about final drive ratio when calculating power crank-wheels.......

Of course final drive matters, because they are different (135i = 3.08 and Z4 M = 3.62).

results:

135i: 1.31/.77/.51/.35/.32/.28
Z4 M: 1.20/.69/.46/.33/.27/.23

I stand corrected, the 135i is shorter in the first 4 gears. Of course, tire outer diameter varies slightly as does unsprung weight and tire grip differences, but marginally. I'm sure the shorter gear ratios in the 135i (through 4th) is what puts it at the Z4 M level to at least the 1/4 mile point. Certainly the Z4 M has a faster top end. Many owners have reported 172 mph in 5th gear (since it's not electronically limited).

[MattD]

Originally Posted by lacrosse

Very true. Unless you own a Veyron. :wink:

Isn't it the Ultimate Aero SSC or something now that's fastest? Although give me a Veyron over one of those any day.

And that horrifically expensive Aston Martin One-77 will be the most expensive new production car I'd assume at around £1.2m a piece!

[esscolab]

"I stand corrected, the 135i is shorter in the first 4 gears. Of course, tire outer diameter varies slightly as does unsprung weight and tire grip differences, but marginally. I'm sure the shorter gear ratios in the 135i (through 4th) is what puts it at the Z4 M level to at least the 1/4 mile point. Certainly the Z4 M has a faster top end. Many owners have reported 172 mph in 5th gear (since it's not electronically limited).[/quote]"



I will try not to be too rude but.... This is incredibly dull and I don't think anyone really cares too much about outer tire (tyre) diameters and unsprung weight. We are not in Formula 1 cars and these facts are nerdy and meaningless when used in day to day cars. Why are people insistent on throwing pointless facts and splitting hairs to prove that they are superior to others.

Close your encyclopedia of dull and useless information on cars, get in the bloody car, drive it and and stop boring everyone to death with meaningless facts.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by ARES45

The S54 was a great engine for BMW and did have a nice torque curve, seven years ago it was one of the best engines around. Things are different now and BMW has several engines that are years ahead of the s54 and have improved upon the amazing torque curve that the s54 has.

I for one still have a great appreciation for many things that aren't the "latest and greatest." Really the S54 eptimomizes BMW's classic approach to high performance engines. I still think the E30 M3's 4-banger is a fantastic motor, despite its age of 20 years.

I would also hardly call the N54 a new engine when the block is from a 3.0 liter E46, which is older than the Z4. Not to mention the 1er may be new to US shores, but I've seen quite a few around here for a few more years.

Old[er] doesn't equal less capable. About all you can say negatively about the S54 is that it isn't as "clean burning" an engine as newer ones, which is what has led it to it's demise after MY08. It's still a monster, and is more powerful than the N54, albeit a little larger in displacement but naturally aspirated. It also looks cool! When you open up the hood on a M3 or Z4 M and see that motor it's jaw droppingly beautiful. The sound is also sexy enough to make you think you're cheating on your wife.

Personally I'm glad the Z4 M is in its last MY. It's sure to be a classic, and I like driving a car you don't see everyday (I see 20 1er's a day around here, including lots and lots of coupes) and knowing how appreciated this car will be in the future. I wish they'd hurry and sell out. If the new M3 is any indication, the new Z4 M replacement will be very heavy (also due to the folding roof), will be packed with luxury and technological driving aid features ... none of which I would want. It'll have the same V8 of the new M3 of course, which is fine but overkill. I've said this many times, but the current Z4 M, like it or not, is perhaps the last pure and classic sports car BMW will ever make. I think that's cool.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by esscolab

"I stand corrected, the 135i is shorter in the first 4 gears. Of course, tire outer diameter varies slightly as does unsprung weight and tire grip differences, but marginally. I'm sure the shorter gear ratios in the 135i (through 4th) is what puts it at the Z4 M level to at least the 1/4 mile point. Certainly the Z4 M has a faster top end. Many owners have reported 172 mph in 5th gear (since it's not electronically limited).

"

"I will try not to be too rude but.... This is incredibly dull and I don't think anyone really cares too much about outer tire (tyre) diameters and unsprung weight. We are not in Formula 1 cars and these facts are nerdy and meaningless when used in day to day cars. Why are people insistent on throwing pointless facts and splitting hairs to prove that they are superior to others.

Close your encyclopedia of dull and useless information on cars, get in the bloody car, drive it and and stop boring everyone to death with meaningless facts.[/quote]"

First, it was a response to a question asked thank you very much. Secondly, if there wasn't so much misinfomation around here I wouldn't care. But there is, and largely from Texas it appears. Draw your own conclusions about that.

Ultimately, it's a car forum. This is what is communicated on car forums as much as anything else. Last time I checked, you were free to get out from in front of your keyboard and follow your own advice.

And by the way you are rude. But at least you're consistent.

Plus, if you don't like this thread, there's one on how much weight to put in the rear of your 135i for winter driving. That one seems to be gaining some steam. Perhaps you'd care to join in?

[esscolab]

Perhaps then you can offer them some of your trusty advice and don't forget to convert into Kilograms as I'm sure you've either done it, read it or had some experience of the required trunk weight in the snow. While on this topic, perhaps you could get in his trunk and stay there, then we would all get some peace.