Are you disappointed with the 1M now that it's released?

[JB135MDCT]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

It seems to me that the biggest drivers of the wildly different pricing has to do with tariffs? Is it me, or does the US just simply not tax the heck out of imported vehicles.

How do you think socialized healthcare is paid for in Canada?

[JB135MDCT]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Then you better stock up on CLASSIC M cars....

I'm working on it, but the fuchers are going for at least 20k.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by JB135MDCT

How did you come up with 20hp gain with DCT?

From my own original investigations. The figure comes from a combination of comparing reported acceleration times between MT and DCT cars as well as using physics based car acceleration modeling software (I use CarTest). Such software tools have been widely demonstrated to very accurately model all of the relevant physics to obtain quite accurate predictions of how the modeled car will actually perform in the real world on a wide variety of different metrics. Once you have a validated model you can perform numerical "experiments" where a car and "driver" and all other variables are kept absolutely identical between virtual drag strip type runs except for a power change and a transmission change. To model the DCT compared to a baseline MT you simply alter the FD, gear ratios and shift times. From this work the figure of approximately 20 hp came about.

Again this figure is somewhat car specific for a car with the exact ratios BMW used for these two trannies and it also for the M3s power to weight ratio. Thus you can't quite generalize this figure to comparing a dual clutch and MT for another car and talk about these other (potential gains). A poorly designed or slow shifting DCT could in theory act like a power loss. That being said most manufacturers DCTs are probably in the range of an equivalent 2%-8% power gain.

[1on135_deal]

makes no sence that car a 135 has 300 hp 1m has 330 or w.e its dumb really look at 335 it has 300with n55 mother now m3 yea biggg diff it has 414 now tats a M car wat the forge is 330 really disspointed...

[ANILE8]

Originally Posted by 1on135_deal

makes no sence that car a 135 has 300 hp 1m has 330 or w.e its dumb really look at 335 it has 300with n55 mother now m3 yea biggg diff it has 414 now tats a M car wat the forge is 330 really disspointed...

Sorry, I don't speak American.

I only understand the English language.

[ErvGotti]

Originally Posted by swamp2

From my own original investigations. The figure comes from a combination of comparing reported acceleration times between MT and DCT cars as well as using physics based car acceleration modeling software (I use CarTest). Such software tools have been widely demonstrated to very accurately model all of the relevant physics to obtain quite accurate predictions of how the modeled car will actually perform in the real world on a wide variety of different metrics. Once you have a validated model you can perform numerical "experiments" where a car and "driver" and all other variables are kept absolutely identical between virtual drag strip type runs except for a power change and a transmission change. To model the DCT compared to a baseline MT you simply alter the FD, gear ratios and shift times. From this work the figure of approximately 20 hp came about.

Again this figure is somewhat car specific for a car with the exact ratios BMW used for these two trannies and it also for the M3s power to weight ratio. Thus you can't quite generalize this figure to comparing a dual clutch and MT for another car and talk about these other (potential gains). A poorly designed or slow shifting DCT could in theory act like a power loss. That being said most manufacturers DCTs are probably in the range of an equivalent 2%-8% power gain.

Another big thing is that with DCT and the Steptronic they have been shown to hold boost between shifts unlike the manual.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by ANILE8

Sorry, I don't speak American.

I only understand the English language.

no doubt.... maybe he's had a few drinks.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by ErvGotti

Another big thing is that with DCT and the Steptronic they have been shown to hold boost between shifts unlike the manual.

That is a KEY reason why the 1M should be offered with an optional DCT. However, that particular feature/benefit is not modeled by CarTest. As I mentioned it might mean even more than the rought 20 hp equivalent that is offers for the M3.

[M_Anthony]

Originally Posted by ANILE8

Sorry, I don't speak American.

I only understand the English language.

Hey, I'm American, and I couldn't make heads or tails of it either!

[Sugarphreak]

Originally Posted by M_Anthony

The sticker price might be $9k more down here, or $15k more up there, but you'll never be able to get it for that price anyway. There's absolutely going to be dealer markup on these, just like they do on every limited edition model. It's going to be absurdly priced by the time you take it home. So figure your track day budget just got even larger by opting not to get one of these.

I have a 2011 135i with the N55 right now, and it's as close to an NA engine as I've ever felt in an FI engine. Buttery smooth, absolutely zero discernible turbo lag...I love it. That's honestly my biggest source of disappointment with the 1M, I was hoping they would do a bespoke, amped-up version of the N55. It's an IS engine, in my mind; the N54 is dead otherwise. I think it's a damn shame that the went with an older engine to use up the stuff in the parts bin.

There are some other stylistic changes that I don't like, such as the rear bumper exhaust cutouts and the side-view mirrors, The front bumper is kind of "meh", but I like the front fenders. I absolutely hate the interior. Those doorhandles are awful, the wheel stitching doesn't match the seats, the alcantara cluster cowl looks completely out of place, they took out the power seats but included navigation?! I don't understand this car at all.

Save your money, get a 2011 135i, and put your money into track time.

Hey thanks for posting this, this is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for! I really like the idea of the scrolling turbo over the twin setup.

I think you are right on the money about the 1M, between the higher starting price, dealer markups, additional insurance costs and marginal power and weight advantages over the 135i it just doesn't offer enough bang.

I am still going to wait for some 3rd party reviews, I am holding out hope that the suspension is going to be something really special. If it starts to come back with some vastly superior skid pad G's, slalom and lane change numbers I might regain my interest in getting one.

[M_Anthony]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

At the pre-drive, we did ask why they chose the N54 and not the N55 and the response was that the N54 was their choice of the two. As I understood it, the N54 was the one that can be tuned better....

Which doesn't bode well for the N55, frankly. I figured it was a combination of that, the leftover parts, and the rushed timeline for the car.

As far as the seats... the European catalog shows power seats as an option... navigation most certainly will be an option as well.

My understanding was that the US models will have very limited options, so what we see here may be pretty much what we get. I don't understand why they'd even offer a navi with this car, if you want the creature comforts get a regular 135.

[Sugarphreak]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

At the pre-drive, we did ask why they chose the N54 and not the N55 and the response was that the N54 was their choice of the two. As I understood it, the N54 was the one that can be tuned better....

This is a post that scott had put up a while back, I don't think the N54 is the engine of choice.... it is the one that could be thrown into the car in time for the launch date.

I see cars in the earlist stage but I have other projects to work on that I cannot afford to be distracted as I have many projects not only for cars but I also conceive stuff for BMWTV.de The German only BMW TV channel which in some cases do not involve cars. With each project now we have started to do Pre-visualisation on the computer because we can show it to the director and production crew and explain this is the angles we want to get the perfect shot.

The time window for this car is extremely tight and originally enthusiasm was not apparent until Dr. Kay Segler came to the M Division.
We had initially toyed with the idea of an 1M when we were conceiving the Coupe and did work with evaluation models then using the engine from the E46 and the upgraded E46 CSL engine but it proved to be too heavy for the car.

Originally in the early days of marketing the standard 135i was originally meant to be an M model.

The 1M that stands before you now has had possibly the most progressive stage from thought-production turnaround for a BMW. There had to be a lot of arm-twisting in the BMW Board because of the tight window between generation 1 and generation 2 of the Coupe. The proposal was greenlighted when BMW decided to use the Coupe model for the BMW eDrive evaluation. Therefore slightly extending it's life cycle.

When I first saw the car it was in a design studio as a full scale claymodel but since then some designers ideas have to make way for aerodynamics and engineering. The initial engine proposal was the N55 but they were having issues that cannot be solved within the time window. BMW Greenlit this car in July 09, now over a year later we see it as it intended , although testing still commences until the launch. Valvetronic was the main cause of the time delay but BMW have spent some time on this and are using the N55 as a basis for the next M3.

The best way to describe the engine of the 1M is a "Hybrid" but in the original form of Hybrid, nothing to do with "alternatives", but it is not a straightforward transplant.

There is a lot of this car that will carry over for the next generation 1M in which that car will switch to four cylinders to which the M Division engineers are already working on the basics without time constraints or restrictions. 1M (E82) is showing what is possible in a small timeframe 1M (F22) will show what is possible once you do not have restrictions.

[HERR FSTIR]

The best way to describe the engine of the 1M is a "Hybrid" but in the original form of Hybrid, nothing to do with "alternatives", but it is not a straightforward transplant.

We are left to wonder for the time being what Scott was referring to with the term "hybrid". If the 1M N54 setup is truly the same as the 335is, then calling it a hybrid does not make sense. Either Scott was wrong/misleading, or additional information regarding the engine has yet to be divulged.

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by JB135MDCT

How do you think socialized healthcare is paid for in Canada?

Canadian healthcare is not 'socialized' it is a 'single-payer' system. (public pay, private delivery)...stop learning about the world from FOX news.

[1_In_The_Sun]

Sorry to hear about your off topic Canadian woes...really...breaks my heart. So sad. Feel better now?

Back on topic:

No matter how much better the M is over the 135i - it's still an M. Those fortunate souls who can afford the dealer mark-ups, will blissfully smile wider every time they see that badge. Knowing they have something that many don't and won't ever have is stoically alluring. Logic and and numbers have little to do with it. Sure you can tune a 135i to beat the M - but that's not the point. an M is an M,

[M_Anthony]

Originally Posted by Sugarphreak

Hey thanks for posting this, this is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for! I really like the idea of the scrolling turbo over the twin setup.

I think you are right on the money about the 1M, between the higher starting price, dealer markups, additional insurance costs and marginal power and weight advantages over the 135i it just doesn't offer enough bang.

I am still going to wait for some 3rd party reviews, I am holding out hope that the suspension is going to be something really special. If it starts to come back with some vastly superior skid pad G's, slalom and lane change numbers I might regain my interest in getting one.

I'll be interested in seeing those numbers as well, but I have a feeling that they won't be so radically different that I'll be willing to upgrade and pay the dealer fees, etc.

[M_Anthony]

Originally Posted by 1_In_The_Sun

No matter how much better the M is over the 135i - it's still an M. Those fortunate souls who can afford the dealer mark-ups, will blissfully smile wider every time they see that badge. Knowing they have something that many don't and won't ever have is stoically alluring. Logic and and numbers have little to do with it. Sure you can tune a 135i to beat the M - but that's not the point. an M is an M,

An M is an M, but that doesn't instantly mean that an M car is actually any good. Ever driven an X6 M?

[grant]

Originally Posted by JB135MDCT

How did you come up with 20hp gain with DCT?

In actuality, DCT results in LESS power, not more. Check the top speeds (unlimited) of Porsches with and without the PDK gearbox (same ratios). PDK-equipped cars are always 1 or 2 mph slower, due to the lower efficiency of the dual-clutch gearbox compared to a proper manual.

It's true that a dual-clutch has faster shift times and an uninterrupted flow of power during gear changes, but it's erroneous to consider it in the context of a power boost (quite the opposite) while in gear.

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by 1_In_The_Sun

Sorry to hear about your off topic Canadian woes...really...breaks my heart. So sad. Feel better now?

Grow up.

[JB135MDCT]

Originally Posted by swamp2

From my own original investigations. The figure comes from a combination of comparing reported acceleration times between MT and DCT cars as well as using physics based car acceleration modeling software (I use CarTest). Such software tools have been widely demonstrated to very accurately model all of the relevant physics to obtain quite accurate predictions of how the modeled car will actually perform in the real world on a wide variety of different metrics. Once you have a validated model you can perform numerical "experiments" where a car and "driver" and all other variables are kept absolutely identical between virtual drag strip type runs except for a power change and a transmission change. To model the DCT compared to a baseline MT you simply alter the FD, gear ratios and shift times. From this work the figure of approximately 20 hp came about.

Again this figure is somewhat car specific for a car with the exact ratios BMW used for these two trannies and it also for the M3s power to weight ratio. Thus you can't quite generalize this figure to comparing a dual clutch and MT for another car and talk about these other (potential gains). A poorly designed or slow shifting DCT could in theory act like a power loss. That being said most manufacturers DCTs are probably in the range of an equivalent 2%-8% power gain.

I would suspect that Cartest would come up with different results for a turbo engine. In MT car you loose boost between shifts where as the DCT maintains uninterrupted boost. Does CarTest take into consideration the difference in rear wheel power curve?

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by M_Anthony

An M is an M, but that doesn't instantly mean that an M car is actually any good. Ever driven an X6 M?

So you've found a better performing SUV on road/track than the X6M ? For what it is... the X6M is a pretty amazing performer.... I agree that in the pantheon of M cars. it would be one of my last selections... however it is indeed far better a performer from a handling, power, and engineering design perspective than the underlying model. Which is what M is all about. Is an M6 (E24 or current?) one's first track weapon of choice? Do you often even SEE one at a track? Is it any less an M car?

[MDORPHN]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

So you've found a better performing SUV on road/track than the X6M ?

Not sure what's considered an SUV vs. a "cross-over" these days, but a Porsche Panamera soundly beat an X6M in this year's One Lap. The X6M was driven by Mike Renner, the chief instructor at the BMW Performance Center in Spartanburg.

Neil