2011 BMW M1 vs 2011 Mustang GT

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by bluejaypanther

Like I said with it being a larger and more modern engine than the n54, I would certainly expect so. And if anyone seriously suggested that an NA V8 would make less torque down low than an FI I6, I agree, they were wrong. But when I think of real turbo lag, I think of a WRX that goes off at 3k RPM and not a moment before. I realize that this is a subjective finding, but I've never seen a quantifiable definition of 'turbo lag'. It's especially hard to define when you consider that there are NA engines that don't make peak torque until they get past 6k RPM.

And maybe the n54 does, technically have turbo lag. But from a practical standpoint, if you intend to go fast with a 135i, 'turbo lag', in the traditional sense, isn't going to hold you back. Creating experimental conditions to demonstrate the phenomenon, I think, is meaningless in the context of how the engine is actually used.

And I'm not going to bury the M1 until some real data comes out.

It's not really an experimental condition. When I notice the lag the most is while going fast through tight corners. When you're on and off the throttle very quickly trying to put as much power down as possible without loosing it. The spool time makes modulating it tricky, and that can happen at any RPM. It's actually worse at higher RPM if you've geared down and are off the throttle long enough for the turbos to really unwind because they have to spool back up to a higher speed before they're making the boost target.

That said, the 135 isnt' nearly as bad as some other vehicles with smaller displacements and larger turbos. I think some people here are confusing efficiency range with lag. Lag is the time it takes the compressor wheel to spool up, and that happens anywhere in the RPM range. When you're talking about the WRX not making any power below 3k RPM, that's because the larger turbo doesn't work well at the lower flow rates. It's out of its efficiency range down there and the powerband reflects that. The N54 doesn't have that problem at all down low because of the small turbos, but it shows up at the other end of the range when torque falls off drastically past 4500RPM.

There's been some hinting by BMW that the twin turbo N55 the M1 is getting is going to be a significantly different setup than the N54. I suspect that maybe they're going to use a sequential turbo system (as on some current diesels) to broaden the power band. I'm certainly not ready to write it off either, but there are several people in this thread (not you )that don't think the two cars should even be compared from a performance perspective and would rather just bash away at the Mustang because of the badge without any giving it any consideration, and sometimes they need a little dose of reality.

What good is a discussion board if you can't openly discuss the good and the bad?

[bmwzone]

Originally Posted by BBBluey

Get real. No one takes a second look at a 1 series in Europe. A mustang GT over here is hot stuff, women flock to it. You don't see to many of them because - how much do u pay for a gallon of gas? and tax?

Look, the 1 is a great car, that's why I bought one. But in no way will I disregard the GT as a tough competitor. When these little turbos die, that V8 will still be kicking.

AMEN. AMEN. AMEN. In St. Albans we saw one GT Mustang and it was HOT. Golfs, Fiestas, 1's are everywhere.

Ford does have Top Tier Hyrbids (Fusion is amazing in it's class 41mpg and the absolutely coolest IP).

Thank whoever mentioned active steering - WHO CARES!?!?! It's like an auto - a complete and utter joke not to mention waste of $$$.

Snyc - BLOWS away iCrap that's gotten horrific reviews from day 1 meanwhile Snyc is the industry standard.

Quality and resale - you'd be lucky to get 25k for an 08 stick 135i today with 20k miles. That's oh, 40% loss?

What is this blue collar nonsense? How hilarious.

The 2011 Mustang 5.0 is going to be one heck of a fun car to drive and looks great at a price-point that's pretty darn amazing.

[Jaguar66]

Originally Posted by bmwzone

Thank whoever mentioned active steering - WHO CARES!?!?! It's like an auto - a complete and utter joke not to mention waste of $$$.

I care, it is fantastic on a street car. Perhaps not for drag racing a Mustang, but I have yet to see anyone on this forum say they hated their cars that have active steering. If yours has it, you will be the first.

[MarkkyyMan]

[JimD]

I get how a Mustang GT could be as fast or faster than a 135i. Certainly in a straight line and arguable on a track. What I do not get, is how one could see the Mustang as a competitor from the standpoint of refinement. BMW is a luxury brand, at least in the U. S., with all that comes with that. Ford in general and the Mustang in particular is decidedly not a luxury vehicle. Fast, sure. Fun, sure. But luxury . A big V8 may last longer (my guess is it will) and sound great but it will not have the smooth feel of the BMW 6. Most of what I would label refinement is small touches (dust covers on the brake bleeder valve, spot for the gas cap when you are filling, light programming, etc..) but it also extends to a smooth motor and nice shifting gearbox. I'd have to drive the Mustang to know about the transmissions but I already know the Ford V8 will not match the BMW for smoothness or refinement from an engineering point of view.

So if you want a fast car a lot more than you want a luxury car, then I can see a Mustang. But why even consider a BMW if that is your criteria? The fastest Mazda 3 is a lot cheaper too if you like turbo motors. And the new camaro looks good and is fast and is a lot cheaper than a BMW. I can't see the 135i, or any BMW, being a value leader if your spec is a fast sporty car. If you add the luxury element to it, I don't see the Mustang meeting the spec.

Jim

[bmwzone]

Name 1 "luxury" feature on a 135i that is not found on the Mustang GT. BMW went downmarket with the 1.

Fact: people buy a 135i because of it's engine - the multi-winning international engine of the year. N54 Twin Turbo.

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by bmwzone

Name 1 "luxury" feature on a 135i that is not found on the Mustang GT. BMW went downmarket with the 1.

Fact: people buy a 135i because of it's engine - the multi-winning international engine of the year. N54 Twin Turbo.

Dude, BMW engines have been in the top ten list, for 25 years...


bi-xenon headlights are a just one example of "luxury", that once you driven a car with them you won't go back... for starters. NVH?

But I fail to see your point of reason. BMW's are about refinement. The exact reason I got ride of my Z06.. I was in my mid-thirties and the constant beating I took while driving the car, put an end to that. You pay a premium for smoothness.

Ford does not equal BMW.. that is not a "put down" on Ford (or Chevy), because that is not their segment (specially for a Mustang), it's just a simple reality. If you are cross shopping a Mustang or a 135i, then your criteria for shopping is performance, not refinement or "luxury".

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

Dude, BMW engines have been in the top ten list, for 25 years...


bi-xenon headlights are a just one example of "luxury", that once you driven a car with them you won't go back... for starters. NVH?

But I fail to see your point of reason. BMW's are about refinement. The exact reason I got ride of my Z06.. I was in my mid-thirties and the constant beating I took while driving the car, put an end to that. You pay a premium for smoothness.

Ford does not equal BMW.. that is not a "put down" on Ford (or Chevy), because that is not their segment (specially for a Mustang), it's just a simple reality. If you are cross shopping a Mustang or a 135i, then your criteria for shopping is performance, not refinement or "luxury".

So you've owned a Mustang, a Z06, and a ZR1, and before your issue with them was efficiency, and when that didn't work out for you (because the BMWs don't get any better mileage than these other two cars) now it's all about refinement?

I smell something......

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

I've already owned ZR1 and a Mustang.. I don't care about 1/4 mile time slips. I am not one who drags cars, I am a car enthusiast who requires the car to be an extension of my being. Once you drive a well balanced BMW, nothing else matters... save Porsche.

If you believe a great car, is made better by adding horsepower, then you are on the wrong boards bro...


Secondly, those cars are the exact opposite of what I am looking for; efficiency. A car like an //M1 is well built, light and lasts, yet get excellent fuel efficiency as well. Mustang? (bigger engine, heavier car..?)

Honestly, I don't care what the horsepower is going to be, I am buying one. It's odd you are so hung up on that HP figure.

I shop handling first, then power-to-weight..

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...R1#post6541949

[AlBel1214]

Originally Posted by bmwzone

Name 1 "luxury" feature on a 135i that is not found on the Mustang GT. BMW went downmarket with the 1.

Fact: people buy a 135i because of it's engine - the multi-winning international engine of the year. N54 Twin Turbo.

^^^ +1 When I got my 135i it was between that or a mustang GT and based solely on performance.. The stang was just to big for me at the time... I am not one who is picky about interior and I know in the BMW world that is definitely a deviation from the norm...

I guess leatherette and a TomTom are good enough for me ...

[Jaguar66]

Refinement: Hard to explain, but easy to recognize when it is there.

[NYC6]

Thats very funny but I like my cars with alot of muscle as well as refinement. I think we all do here or else we would all be on a Prius Forum.

If we're just talking about women, on the Right works nicely.

[MarkkyyMan]

I Terminators!

[esscolab]

Originally Posted by MarkkyyMan

I Terminators!

Would have been appropriate in a 70's movie but tastes have moved on. Big fat wide V8's are teenage boys poster material who see it as an extension of their dicks. The BMW market caters for the more dicernable individual who has matured from adolecence.

Stick them in cars shows or bring them out for special occasions, day to day they don't work.

[JimD]

BMWZONE,

I'm not sure your "name one feature" comment really deserves a response but since there seems to be a general "off the deep end" flavor to your and other people comments, I spent a minute on Edmunds comparing features. I had to look at a 2010 Mustang, I don't think anybody knows the exact features of the 2011, but I don't think it will change a lot.

I compared a "Premium" Mustang convertible to a 135i. I realize most of you guys drive coupes but I like convertibles so that is what I compared. I found interesting that Edmunds listed the True Market Value, TMV, for the two less than $2400 apart (Mustang cheaper). We all know BMW runs up the price with options but if you keep the list short, the Mustang is not $10,000 cheaper as some seem to have commented.

The mustang manual is a 5 speed, the BMW is a 6. The BMW has 4 valves per cylinder, the Mustang 3. The mustang has 15 more horsepower and 25 more foot pounds of torque (but it is changing with the 2011). Mustang is single overhead cam, the BMW dual. None of that is luxury stuff however, so moving on. The BMW has a hill hold feature, the Mustang does not. The BMW power seats are 8 way, the Mustang is 6. The BMW has split folding rear seats, the Mustang does not. The rear seats have their own HVAC duct on the BMW, in the mustang you have only the front. The BMW HVAC is dual zone automatic, the mustang single. The BMW steering wheel telescopes, the Mustang's does not. The BMW outside mirrors are heated, the Mustangs are not. The BMW has a cargo net and tie downs in the luggage compartment, the Mustang has nothing,. The BMW has an interior air filter the Mustang lacks. The BMW has reading lights the mustang lacks. The BMW has real wood trim the Mustang lacks. The BMW brakes have brake assist and emergency preparedness the Mustang lacks. The BMW has xenon headlights which swivel on turns and have a washer, the Mustang has normal headlights. There are 10 speakers in the BMW soundsystem to the Mustangs 8. BMW has BMW Assist available, Mustangs have nothing similar.

While both have inside opening for the gas filler, the BMW's system is clearly more upscale to me. Edmunds won't tell you those kind of things. I like the little dust covers on the brake bleeder valves and the trap door for the oil drain plug in the belly pan. I do not know any easy way to list these kind of things but I am confident that a detailed inspection of both vehicles would add items to the list, mostly favoring the BMW.

I would expect the gap might close a bit with the 2011 but BMWs may change a little too. The only optional feature I mentioned was the BMW assist. To be fair, the Mustang also has a full size spare and leather seats in its price. So there are a couple things in its favor, at least to me, but many things in the BMWs favor. I think the difference fully supports my view the BMW is a luxury sporty car and the Mustang is just a sporty car (that I wouldn't mind owning, don't get me wrong here, I just think the BMW is decidedly more luxurious even if it is at the plain end of BMW's lineup).

Jim

[onehungevo]

Originally Posted by JimD

BMWZONE,

I'm not sure your "name one feature" comment really deserves a response but since there seems to be a general "off the deep end" flavor to your and other people comments, I spent a minute on Edmunds comparing features. I had to look at a 2010 Mustang, I don't think anybody knows the exact features of the 2011, but I don't think it will change a lot.

I compared a "Premium" Mustang convertible to a 135i. I realize most of you guys drive coupes but I like convertibles so that is what I compared. I found interesting that Edmunds listed the True Market Value, TMV, for the two less than $2400 apart (Mustang cheaper). We all know BMW runs up the price with options but if you keep the list short, the Mustang is not $10,000 cheaper as some seem to have commented.

The mustang manual is a 5 speed, the BMW is a 6. The BMW has 4 valves per cylinder, the Mustang 3. The mustang has 15 more horsepower and 25 more foot pounds of torque (but it is changing with the 2011). Mustang is single overhead cam, the BMW dual. None of that is luxury stuff however, so moving on. The BMW has a hill hold feature, the Mustang does not. The BMW power seats are 8 way, the Mustang is 6. The BMW has split folding rear seats, the Mustang does not. The rear seats have their own HVAC duct on the BMW, in the mustang you have only the front. The BMW HVAC is dual zone automatic, the mustang single. The BMW steering wheel telescopes, the Mustang's does not. The BMW outside mirrors are heated, the Mustangs are not. The BMW has a cargo net and tie downs in the luggage compartment, the Mustang has nothing,. The BMW has an interior air filter the Mustang lacks. The BMW has reading lights the mustang lacks. The BMW has real wood trim the Mustang lacks. The BMW brakes have brake assist and emergency preparedness the Mustang lacks. The BMW has xenon headlights which swivel on turns and have a washer, the Mustang has normal headlights. There are 10 speakers in the BMW soundsystem to the Mustangs 8. BMW has BMW Assist available, Mustangs have nothing similar.

While both have inside opening for the gas filler, the BMW's system is clearly more upscale to me. Edmunds won't tell you those kind of things. I like the little dust covers on the brake bleeder valves and the trap door for the oil drain plug in the belly pan. I do not know any easy way to list these kind of things but I am confident that a detailed inspection of both vehicles would add items to the list, mostly favoring the BMW.

I would expect the gap might close a bit with the 2011 but BMWs may change a little too. The only optional feature I mentioned was the BMW assist. To be fair, the Mustang also has a full size spare and leather seats in its price. So there are a couple things in its favor, at least to me, but many things in the BMWs favor. I think the difference fully supports my view the BMW is a luxury sporty car and the Mustang is just a sporty car (that I wouldn't mind owning, don't get me wrong here, I just think the BMW is decidedly more luxurious even if it is at the plain end of BMW's lineup).

Jim

Very good points.

[Spartikus]

Originally Posted by JimD

BMWZONE,

I'm not sure your "name one feature" comment really deserves a response but since there seems to be a general "off the deep end" flavor to your and other people comments, I spent a minute on Edmunds comparing features. I had to look at a 2010 Mustang, I don't think anybody knows the exact features of the 2011, but I don't think it will change a lot.

I compared a "Premium" Mustang convertible to a 135i. I realize most of you guys drive coupes but I like convertibles so that is what I compared. I found interesting that Edmunds listed the True Market Value, TMV, for the two less than $2400 apart (Mustang cheaper). We all know BMW runs up the price with options but if you keep the list short, the Mustang is not $10,000 cheaper as some seem to have commented.

The mustang manual is a 5 speed, the BMW is a 6. The BMW has 4 valves per cylinder, the Mustang 3. The mustang has 15 more horsepower and 25 more foot pounds of torque (but it is changing with the 2011). Mustang is single overhead cam, the BMW dual. None of that is luxury stuff however, so moving on. The BMW has a hill hold feature, the Mustang does not. The BMW power seats are 8 way, the Mustang is 6. The BMW has split folding rear seats, the Mustang does not. The rear seats have their own HVAC duct on the BMW, in the mustang you have only the front. The BMW HVAC is dual zone automatic, the mustang single. The BMW steering wheel telescopes, the Mustang's does not. The BMW outside mirrors are heated, the Mustangs are not. The BMW has a cargo net and tie downs in the luggage compartment, the Mustang has nothing,. The BMW has an interior air filter the Mustang lacks. The BMW has reading lights the mustang lacks. The BMW has real wood trim the Mustang lacks. The BMW brakes have brake assist and emergency preparedness the Mustang lacks. The BMW has xenon headlights which swivel on turns and have a washer, the Mustang has normal headlights. There are 10 speakers in the BMW soundsystem to the Mustangs 8. BMW has BMW Assist available, Mustangs have nothing similar.

While both have inside opening for the gas filler, the BMW's system is clearly more upscale to me. Edmunds won't tell you those kind of things. I like the little dust covers on the brake bleeder valves and the trap door for the oil drain plug in the belly pan. I do not know any easy way to list these kind of things but I am confident that a detailed inspection of both vehicles would add items to the list, mostly favoring the BMW.

I would expect the gap might close a bit with the 2011 but BMWs may change a little too. The only optional feature I mentioned was the BMW assist. To be fair, the Mustang also has a full size spare and leather seats in its price. So there are a couple things in its favor, at least to me, but many things in the BMWs favor. I think the difference fully supports my view the BMW is a luxury sporty car and the Mustang is just a sporty car (that I wouldn't mind owning, don't get me wrong here, I just think the BMW is decidedly more luxurious even if it is at the plain end of BMW's lineup).

Jim

Nice write-up. When I have sometime I can do an exact opposite assessment. There are a lot of holes though. Off the top of my head. The 2011 is definitely a six speed now and I like that the GT comes with a garage homelink. Kinda bizarre BMW believes I wouldn't want a garage door opener or power seats in my 40k car. Nobody said the Mustang GT is a luxury sports car. Many just said you can just about match option for option. Look at the EPA figures on both cars. You have 100hp more in the stang and you don't suffer much for it. You can also put regular fuel in the Ford. See what happens in the N54 with that.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

Your butt dyno isn't the same as a real Dyno chart. The 135i and the subsequent M1 does and will have more low-end torque.

Most of what you suggest is opinion and not based on factual evidence..!

Did you read my post?
I did not say "butt" dyno, I said I've dynoed dozens and dozens of N54's (both mine many, many times) and with Shiv and Terry in testing the Procede and JB3, as well as many others in a couple dyno days I've organized.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by bluejaypanther

I have to disagree with this. There are legit criticisms of the 135i for sure, but the N54 (HPFP aside) is beyond reproach. You can talk about your subjective experience with the engine, or when you dyno'd a car and didn't see 300 HP (stupid question: you mean at the wheel or at the crank? because no one ever made the claim that it put 300 to the wheels).

I never said the N54 engine is not excellent.
I owned two starting in December 2006.
I was one of the first 25 people or so in the world to have a tune on the N54 engine. 300 at the wheel.
Dyno the car it won't make the same torque at 2000 rpms as it does at 2500 rpms, much less at the claimed 1400.

Originally Posted by bluejaypanther

But none of that crap matters. I dont care if the reported horsepower is 75 with a torque peak at 5k. If the car is going 0-60 in 4.6 seconds with a 1/4 mile of 13.1 (source zeroto60times.com , which has the current GT stang 0.5 slower), then it has a fantastic engine, and more than likely, great low end torque. Those times are the domain of 400HP cars. Granted, there is a skill requirement, but I'm NOT a particularly skilled 6MT driver, and I can get my car to 60 in under 5 seconds, no problem. You just can't do that without low-end torque in a car weighing 3400 lbs.

Not quite sure what this was suppose to portray or how it matters. Again, nobody is saying the N54 is weak on power.

Originally Posted by bluejaypanther

Also regardless of whether peak torque comes at 1400 or 3000 RPM, stating that the N54 has turbo lag just doesn't fit either. Even if the engine didnt hit peak torque until 3k, it doesn't exactly lack punch down low. It goes from a making a lot of torque to making a shit-ton of power, and the results speak for themselves.

You know what turbo lag is right? The N54 does not have A LOT of turbo lag, but it undeniably has some, all turbos do, it's impossible for turbos to have instant full boost and power on tap all the time and ready for action at the moment you touch the gas. You can catch the engine "off guard" and off boost in many scenarios and there will be that bit of bog and delay before boost kicks in. It's just a matter of fact, not a criticism.

**Edit: After reading past your post here, I see Jeremy responded to your post too and that you "technically" understand and agree that the N54 does have some turbo lag.**

[bmwzone]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

Ford does not equal BMW.. that is not a "put down" on Ford (or Chevy), because that is not their segment (specially for a Mustang), it's just a simple reality. If you are cross shopping a Mustang or a 135i, then your criteria for shopping is performance, not refinement or "luxury".

That was my point exactly. The 1 is *not* luxury - just like the GT. They are for performance and the Ford has 95% of all the "features" many of which are superior.

Look before my post someone wrote that BMW is luxury. Sure at the the high end. Not at the 1 series level. They are no different than VW, Ford in Europe at the 1 level.

[Driver72]

Not quite sure why people are arguing the points of refinement between the Mustang and the BMW.

Here is the quote from my very first post in this thread:

"Here's an interesting comparison to make on paper at this point.
My guess is they will both accelerate and perform similarly on a track.
Sure the BMW is going to be the more refined car, but give your thoughts on the performance aspects of these two cars."


It was a comparison of performance aspects.
The BMW is undoubtedly more refined with more upscale materials, more options, etc. This was not intended to be a discussion about refinement and options on each car.
Clearly the BMW has more refinement and options, it should it costs
over $6k more to start (135i vs MGT).

Further, to exacerbate my point, I was not comparing a 135i to the 2011 Mustang GT, it was a PERFORMANCE comparison (on paper) between the 2011 Mustang GT and the M1 as I feel they will have similar performance.

[bmwzone]

Originally Posted by Spartikus

Nice write-up. When I have sometime I can do an exact opposite assessment. There are a lot of holes though. Off the top of my head. The 2011 is definitely a six speed now and I like that the GT comes with a garage homelink. Kinda bizarre BMW believes I wouldn't want a garage door opener or power seats in my 40k car. Nobody said the Mustang GT is a luxury sports car. Many just said you can just about match option for option. Look at the EPA figures on both cars. You have 100hp more in the stang and you don't suffer much for it. You can also put regular fuel in the Ford. See what happens in the N54 with that.

+1

What do poeple on this board clamor for the most? And remember this is a peformance enthusiast board not a "luxury" aka Lexus board.

LSD
More Exhaust Sound (exhaust mods everywhere)
More Power (chips and everything this side of the Mississippi)
Better sound system (our sound system SUCKS)
Bigger wheels (aftermarket for us)
Better looking car (subjective)
A third brake light that doesn't break/fall off.

What the Mustang GT 5.0 6-Speed Manual has (not to mention almost everything else a 135i has in the luxury area and more except that roundel thing):

LSD
Must More Exhuast Sound
Much More Power
1000w Shaker Stereo ... oh yeah, and SYNC the industry standard and a price tag that makes some cry at how reasonable it is.
19" wheels
Macho-retro look that side-by-side with a 135i wins the looks contest at least 75% of the time - but again subjective - I like both
Brake lights dont fall off - instead actually look pretty cool and have a staggered effect when using.

[Vintage]

Originally Posted by Driver72

Would any of you consider a $38k (nicely optioned) Mustang GT
over a $52k (nicely optioned) M1?
Thoughts on the two cars and how they might compare performance wise?

look, I like Ford's okay and once upon a time I owned a really reliable Ford truck for 8 years; however, every Mustang I have been in was a POS. nothing personal but they fall apart quick, probably due to those that buy them and how they are treated more than the car itself - I will take an M1 and you should too