Chris Harris of EVO Praises 1M Coupe, Feels Like True M Car! [VIDEO]

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by formula M

You like cars with specs^... u don't focus on how they feel, or handle....


The rest, is just you talking about a 135i...

not at all
i was just trying to show why i had issues with the 1M
i was very excited about this car when i heard about it
but the more info i hear, the less excited i am
i do care how a car handles and feels
i had an Audi A5 for 6 months
and i hated driving it so much, i sold it, at a loss, to get a proper car
and i've had my M3 for just over 2 years
and it still puts a smile on my face every single day when i drive it

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by southlight

I get your point, but the assumption that the lack of individual throttle butterflies makes for the N54's and S63's lag seems a bit off to me. It's rather the turbo response time which makes for said lag.


Best regards,
south

oh no i didn't mean to imply that
i was just commenting on what he said about the fact that the 1m doesn't have them make some of us look down on it.

i was actually very disapointed when i drove the X6M
i had heard a lot about how putting the turbos in the middle of the V meant no lag
and it has as much lag as the 135/335 does
not looking good for the 1M or the next M3 either
:'(

so what sounded great on paper about the next M3/1M
more power, more torque, less fuel
really was too good to be true
we will get all those 3, but we'll lose throttle response

[Madozu]

Individual throttle butterflies on forced induction engines don't pay back the investment. On NA engines individual throttle butterflies allow to have independent air intakes per cylinder to allow for appropriate air oscillation in the intake tubes. This works kinda like little "forced induction" because at the appropriate rev speed the intake valves close at the same time when the air in the intake tube swings in (towards the combustion chamber). And it creates a wonderful intake sound

And soughtlight is 100 percent correct: turbo lag is mostly due to the fact that that the turbos have to spool up.

For a FI engine it's more like a waste of money ...

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by Madozu

Individual throttle butterflies on forced induction engines don't pay back the investment. On NA engines individual throttle butterflies allow to have independent air intakes per cylinder to allow for appropriate air oscillation in the intake tubes.

This is a little nit-picky, but I'd put it a little differently.

"Air oscillation in the intake tubes" has to do with runner length and diameter, not individual throttle bodies (ITBs). When the throttle bodies are wide open the basically get out of the way, meaning if the TB is at the head or before the plenum doesn't matter with regards to resonant tuning. What the ITBs do is give you more total throttle plate area, thus reducing back-pressure. You could put in a similarly large single throttle and get the same peak power, but drivability would suck.

ITBs with a turbo certainly work to increase throttle response, but almost too well. With a single throttle body the plenum needs to pressurize when the throttle opens, and that takes time delaying response. With ITBs the plenum is already pressurized, so when you crack the throttle pressurized air instantly goes into the chamber- much faster response. Racers like it and sometimes upgrade to ITBs on turbos to allow the car to be throttle steered more easily, but it's sometimes difficult to make smooth enough for street use. I do agree the payback is lower.

FYI.

[Madozu]

Detailed explanation ... thanks :-)

When throttle-steering a single-throttle FI car, we can avoid that the plenum needs to pressurize by trying not to fully close the throttle. So throttle response is ok unless you fully close the throttle.

But I don't expect a 1M to have my E36 3.2 (Euro) M3's throttle response.

[SlicktopTTZ]

To me, throttle response and lag are two different things.

My 135i has better throttle response than my dad's C5 z06, probably because the BMW has a newer/better/quicker electronic throttle body.

My dad's V8 makes peak torque for that rpm at WOT quicker, because it isn't spooling a turbo. So, my BMW responds to inputs faster, meaning better throttle response, but builds torque slower, being turbocharged vs NA.

kmarie, I understand your concern with the M division and BMW's decisions, I was simply stating that as a daily driver/track car I do not think 1 M Coupe will be a step down in any way.

It will be a step up in my eyes, considering it's power potential is huge (already setup for FI, smart ECU that has multiple companies developing tunes for it), there is an aftermarket already addressing suspension/braking/drivetrain weaknesses, the design is overall more appealing to me than the M3, it will be the lightest car in the M lineup and based on my experience with my 135i M-sport it will not be over-spung/shocked for the street and will be a superb DD with great sound and isolation from your environment when you want it.

Also, I know plenty about heatsoak, and with a properly sized intercooler or other aftercooling the heat exchange rate will be great enough to never "heatsoak", even in horrible ambient conditions.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by dibxna

the reason i have my m3 (aside from the obvious techy marvel it is and the incredible performance) is that it is an M car... not that many on the road... I kind of feel like this 1m coupe is going to flood the market because of its price point... yes its good for the sales area... but am i wrong with remembering that acura discontinued the RSX because it wasnt really in line with their company objectives? i feel like producing up cars that compete within the same brand is annoying!

500 units for total US consumption really wont be flooding the market. Also 45 is hardly cheap for an average car and is more expensive then what an M3 was ten years ago.

The 1M and M3 have different target audiences and face it the M3 has gotten huge. The E90 is bigger than the original 7 series!

The 1M should in all rights be faster than an M3 because it is the size of an E30...aka small.

We have yet to see if BMW will pull a Cayman and nerf the car so that it doesnt compet with the M3, even tho it may be the better car much like the Cayman cant compete with the 911 even tho it is the better car.




Glad to hear the Chris likes the car. Hopefully its everything BMW promised...I hope the do ITBs and larger turbos and forged internals for the 1M...im lookin to upgrade my engine a bit

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by Madozu

When throttle-steering a single-throttle FI car, we can avoid that the plenum needs to pressurize by trying not to fully close the throttle.

Actually what you're doing there is keeping the turbo spooled. If there isn't a pressure difference across the throttle plate then the throttle isn't cutting any air (and hence power) to the motor.

As you say throttle response is OK (because the turbo is still spinning) but not as good as your E36 (because the plenum still needs to pressurize).

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ

It will be a step up in my eyes, considering it's power potential is huge (already setup for FI, smart ECU that has multiple companies developing tunes for it), there is an aftermarket already addressing suspension/braking/drivetrain weaknesses, the design is overall more appealing to me than the M3, it will be the lightest car in the M lineup and based on my experience with my 135i M-sport it will not be over-spung/shocked for the street and will be a superb DD with great sound and isolation from your environment when you want it.

i'll reserve judgment till it comes out
but if what you say turns out to be true, i'd buy it in a heartbeat

just my gutt feeling is telling me this is a trial 1M
once the next M3 comes out with around 450hp
the next 1M will, i would guess have about 385hp, and i have a feeling it will have much less in common with the 135 then than this upcoming 1M.

but we'll just have to wait and see..

[PrimoM3]

Originally Posted by kmarei

just my gutt feeling is telling me this is a trial 1M
once the next M3 comes out with around 450hp
the next 1M will, i would guess have about 385hp, and i have a feeling it will have much less in common with the 135 then than this upcoming 1M.

but we'll just have to wait and see..

Maybe not... this is the beginning of the end for the numbers war. You are going to see performance-oriented cars get lighter rather than gain power.

[malter2.0]

Originally Posted by Evan135

Sorry, but some people seem to be putting the E30 M3 on a pedestal and it is making me silly. It was very succesful on the track etc. I have a friend here that has a very clean and well kept red one and I have driven others too.

What is special about them is that they are fun to drive like a spec Miata. Good handling(most of the time, they had a terrible rear axle design) and not too fast so you can run it through the gears and have fun. But...

I would not give someone my cell phone, my plasma TV, iphone and the other great things new technology has provided me to go back 20 years....

So why then would I want give up my vastly improved and modern BMW to drive around in an old M3? Even for track days. They are loud, the engine is dying for balance shafts, and they are merely quick with fun, but not great handling. Try lifting the throttle mid turn in one and you can find yourself looking at the car that was behind you through your windshield.

A classic and important car, yes, but not really a great car by todays terms. I know this will get me into lots of trouble, but many here are looking backwards through rose color glasses. I still love them but they are what they are.

With a complete E9X M3 suspension and brakes, married to a modified and higher revving N54, I would take an 1M anyday.

dude, you are comparing this car to modern cars. that's retarded.
what E30 M3 was to its competitors no other M3 generation after it accomplished. it completely dominated everything measurable. e3/46 and e9x do not dominate at all. at best, they are MARGINALLY better than competitors. you have to compare apples to apples.

[malter2.0]

Originally Posted by southlight

I get your point, but the assumption that the lack of individual throttle butterflies makes for the N54's and S63's lag seems a bit off to me. It's rather the turbo response time which makes for said lag.


Best regards,
south

turbo is probably the primary reason for lag, but ITBs ARE indeed directly responsible for better throttle response.

some good read here...

http://www.scienceofspeed.com/sos_re...ITB_induction/

[Jack28]

I wish they werent playing music on the interior shots. I couldnt make what he was saying about the steering, he did seemed preety pleased with it overall... cant wait to see the finished car...

[Robert]

Originally Posted by kmarei

it is actually, and i belive your comment shows you are totally missing the point of an M car
the point of an M car is having a car that one minute is a normal car, taking the kids to school, with regular pump gas, next minute you take it to a track, with stock tires, brakes etc and kick ass.

If you read the customer surveys, demography of M3 owners are early 20s or late 50s in each case there are no kids to take to school. On paper it's a versatile car but most buyers don't really care.

If transporting kids is a top priority most people want 4 doors. Until recently, 4 door M3 wasn't an option.


What is most egregious are M3 owners focusing on potential weakness of the 1M in the 1M section. That's equivalent of someone who goes on the M3 forum and repeatedly pointing out M3 is bloated and drive like a land yacht. While true it's just bad manner even for the internet.

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by Robert

If you read the customer surveys, demography of M3 owners are early 20s or late 50s in each case there are no kids to take to school.

ok to make you happier
i can rephrase it to say "one minute you are taking your drinking buddies to the pub (or taking your older friends to play golf)
and next minute you take it to the track

kind of irrelavant if its kids or 2 humans, the point is it's a comfortable 4 seater.

Originally Posted by Robert

What is most egregious are M3 owners focusing on potential weakness of the 1M in the 1M section. That's equivalent of someone who goes on the M3 forum and repeatedly pointing out M3 is bloated and drive like a land yacht. While true it's just bad manner even for the internet.

not at all
i was (maybe still am ) a potential buyer of the 1M so i don't see the point of this statement. Never saw a sign that said this forum is for 1 owners ONLY.

so you only condone praising the 1M and stating its benefits?
which i might add, you owe thanks to the M3 for

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by formula M

So your argument is that the M3 is better for you, because you don't necessarily need all the performance, you like the luxury and extra space..? & also that, you find HP an ego-booster.

Then why don't you say this^, instead of knock the 1M which is obviously more focused than the M3..!

please re-read my earlier post
i made that statement when you said i can get a 135i and chip it and put race slicks, camber plates, race gas and outrun your M3.
so i replied stating the beauty of the M3 is its a normal car one second, and gave the example of being able to carry people in the back one second, and the next i can take it, AS IS, to a track and post very good laptimes.
when your example, the souped up 135, would not be nice to drive on the road, and would probably exprience mechanical issues way before my car, AND your warranty would be void after the JB3.

i never said i don't need the extra performane
nor did i utter the word luxury, my M3 is stripped, i don't have idrive or EDC or any of that stuff.
and i never said HP is an ego booster.
but that doesn't meant that you can slap an M sticker on a 135is and charge me 7-8K$ extra. it's not about HP, its about value.

explain to me how a 1M is more focused than an M3 (not implying the M3 is more focused than a 1M so you don't jump to conclusions there)
what makes it focused?
is it the M3 brakes? or the M3 LSD?, or maybe the M3 tires?
M3 wheels?
or is it the turbocharged 135 engine?


all i said was i expected more from the 1M, and that i feel its kind of a rush job.
and based on the info available now, it seems that way
if new info comes out and proves me wrong, i will be the first to admit it

[kmarei]

a quote from the article from BMW blog quoting Dr Kay Segler, President of BMW M cars.

"BMWBLOG: How long is the design process to produce an M car?

Dr. Kay Segler: It depends. We don’t compromise therefore we come later than the base model as you see with the new M5, because we don’t want to compromise. On the 1 series M coupe we were very, very fast – I mean tremendously fast! We took some risks but we managed it because we are a very small team, there is no hierarchy. Basically the principle idea was in June/July of last year that we might do something like this and we will bring it out next spring. So great job by the team."

so you can see why they had to cut corners.
here is the full article
http://www.bmwblog.com/2010/08/29/bm...dr-kay-segler/

[PrimoM3]

Cut corners or worked efficiently to execute under a tight deadline with existing parts? Just because it's rushed, doesn't mean it won't do the intended job very well. Ever had a lunchtime quickie with your partner?

[gnx]

I think you guys need to put things into perspective. The next M3 will be a turbocharged six. The 1 M is a turbocharged six, with an M3 chassis for 75-80% of the price of a current M3. It is not a bad deal. It is an attractive proposition overall. A dct tranny would make it a 10 second (0-100mph) car. At 50% of the price of a 997. Good stuff

[grant]

Originally Posted by gxanthop

A dct tranny would make it a 10 second (0-100mph) car.

How did you come up with that? I think you are way off - do you expect DCT to save over a second on each shift?

[E82tt6]

Originally Posted by dibxna

it already frustrates me the 135i is quick enough to hold some pace with an m3... it is going to make me rather grumpy if this new 1m coupe is going to be an actual all around competitor and maybe quicker in some respects for a lower price.

the reason i have my m3 (aside from the obvious techy marvel it is and the incredible performance) is that it is an M car... not that many on the road... I kind of feel like this 1m coupe is going to flood the market because of its price point... yes its good for the sales area... but am i wrong with remembering that acura discontinued the RSX because it wasnt really in line with their company objectives? i feel like producing up cars that compete within the same brand is annoying!

I'm still a lover of cars. a lover of engineering marvels... im sure the 1m coupe will be a great, fun, nimble, fast little beast but it still feels like a punch in the junk that it can compete with me for cheaper from the same company.

Don't worry, it looks like there will be fewer of them than the M3 by a large margin. They will be much more rare and exclusive, and shouldn't devalue to M brand. Seems kinda silly given their stated intention, but whatever.

As to performance, it will indubitably out-handle and out brake the M3. Same brakes, same tires, less weight = more braking power. Same suspension, re-tuned for a lighter car with same tires = better handling.

[Evice]

BMW should have supercharged this 1M to end this conversation. No turbo spooling, no lag. Dang you guys are stuck on stuff way too much.