Anything You Don't Like About 1 Coupe?

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by BMWeber

you can just as easily think of a 130i as a tuned up or tweaked 128i rather than the 128i being a neutered 130i.

You are just trying to play with words to twist the truth. If you read spinzero or I's other posts, the N52 shares all the components of the N53 only with a restricted intake, ECU, and slightly exhaust modifications. The N52 is a neutered N53. There is no denying that. The tuning differences are artificial; that is the key difference.

[BMWeber]

Originally Posted by MPower

spinzero is right, you are just a human-brickwall hybird....

Understand two things: the problem is the engine overheating; the solution is the oil cooler. The oil coolers aren't failing, the engines are which is causing the necessary need of oil coolers.

A car going into limp mode IS an example of the car overheating! Of course, with the advanced engine technology now-a-days, the engine will not let itself go over a certain point where serious engine damage occurs. However, numerous owners are reporting engine temperatures above 300 degrees which is where serious oil damage occurs (which eventually causes engine damage).

And if you think that an engine going into limp mode after two laps is an acceptable thing...

Post me the link. I have read up on BMW EfficientDynamics but never noticed anyone saying that the N54 is designed to run at 300 degrees.

Thanks for those specifics.

Under 30k, could be anything from 27-29,995, and mid 30s could be anything from 34-37,000. Makes a HUGE difference.

WHAT?!? Did you just ignore everything that spinzero and I have told you? Get this into your head: the N52 in the 128/328/528/Z4 is a neutered version of the N53 in the 130/330/530/Z4. There is no denying that.

Wow is this statement awful....

First: I am buying a BMW! Why should I not be focused on performance? I guess the Ultimate Driving Machine only applies to specifically designated models.

Second: How can you call the price difference between the 128i and 135i a "nominal" difference? I wish everyone had the imaginary budget you claim to have. As I have said before, if price wasnt issue, I would be looking at an M3. Not a 1-Series. It is an entry-level model for a reason. You can only afford what you can afford.

For the same price, every one of my wants could be satisfied. Instead, BMW is sending us a neutered engine with artificially restrained high-rpm performance.

Oh my gosh... some reason! Of course the only reason I am looking at the base model is because of budget. And as I have mentioned numerous times, there is no reason why the base model could not satisfy all of my wants. To suggest that base-model BMWs are not performance-orientated models is completely ridiculous.

can you show me some technical data that showed the motor is artificially restrained(neutered) and not that BMW just put a lower performance cheaper to manufacture intake and exhaust on the 128i.

and if budget is the thing the 128i is cheaper than a 130i would be.

[hector]

[quote=BMWeber;22204]the 325i are still 3.0 liter di motors at a lower stage of tune 218 hp. BMW was nice enough to give us over here a more highly tuned 328i with 230hp...quote]
granted, the 325 is an even more egregious example of the detuning. bottom line for me is that i prefer engines that maximize output/physical mass thereby increasing the power to weight ratio of the vehicle.

[hector]

Originally Posted by BMWeber

and if budget is the thing the 128i is cheaper than a 130i would be.

cheaper but not lighter!

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by BMWeber

can you show me some technical data that showed the motor is artificially restrained(neutered) and not that BMW just put a lower performance cheaper to manufacture intake and exhaust on the 128i.

and if budget is the thing the 128i is cheaper than a 130i would be.

The main differences are in the ECU and a single-stage intake. The price differences are negligible. The evidence that the 128's N52 is evidenced by the fact that everything apart from the differences are exactly identical to the N52 used in the US 330i. The engine itself (which is used in the 325/328/330) is optimized to run at the power levels of the 330, but the single-stage intake of the 325/328 artificially reduces that power (by not changing any other technical aspects of the engine to optimize the performance of a single-stage intake).

Here is a thread that briefly discusses these problems:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72316

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by BMWeber

can you show me some technical data that showed the motor is artificially restrained(neutered) and not that BMW just put a lower performance cheaper to manufacture intake and exhaust on the 128i.

and if budget is the thing the 128i is cheaper than a 130i would be.

Can you define "artificially restrained" in your context?

BMW has already done all the R&D necessary to extract 255HP out of the 3.0L N52 reliably with US pump gas. Exactly how much they saved by sticking lower performance intake manifod to the 328i, I do not know. But that cost is very unlikely to be a meaningful portion of the price drop of ~$4K going from the 330i to 328i.

In the first year of E90 production, (2006) BMW offered two versions of N52. The full blown version in the 330i, and the detuned version (with single stage intake and different ECU tuning) in the 325i. Interestingly, the 325i's power was down by 16%, and price was lower by 15% from the 330i. Next year BMW rolled in the 335i, along with the new 328i. Guess what. This time the 328i's power was down by 10%, and price was lower by 10% from the 330i. It's as if they decide the output at a pricing meeting and gave the engineers the numbers. Is this artificial enough? :iono:

This thread we are all posting is called "Anything You Don't Like About 1 Coupe?", and to many of us this trick of detuning the engine to almost exactly match the price point so as to push the upper model is an unwelcome marketing technique, something that we don't like about the 1 coupe. A very common one no dout, as Porsche does it to its entire line up, but still pretty lame. (And at least they have the conscience to vary the displacement)

It is particularly bad in this case of 28 vs. 35, because the lower model that got speced according to its price, and not to its potential, is the only choice for an NA engine. This "buy the upper model if you are unhappy" argument woud've worked much better in the case of 25 vs. 30. At least 25 had slightly better fuel economy. Not so much now since, apparently to many's dismay, some of us just don't want the almighty twin turbo.

If you don't see this point, move on. Either don't post in this thread, or complain about something else. This thread is not "let's all agree on what we don't like about the 1 coupe". People will hate different things about this car, and we better get used to it. You don't see me jumping on people that like the exterior design of this car, just because I hate hate hate the head lamp design.

I swear I won't post any more on this. :frown:

[BMWeber]

Originally Posted by MPower

The main differences are in the ECU and a single-stage intake. The price differences are negligible. The evidence that the 128's N52 is evidenced by the fact that everything apart from the differences are exactly identical to the N52 used in the US 330i. The engine itself (which is used in the 325/328/330) is optimized to run at the power levels of the 330, but the single-stage intake of the 325/328 artificially reduces that power (by not changing any other technical aspects of the engine to optimize the performance of a single-stage intake).

Here is a thread that briefly discusses these problems:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72316

I know the differences and the similarities. I just don't see it as artificial. I see it as one motor having higher performance MORE EXPENSIVE intake and Exhaust. what do you consider negligible? do you know how much the costs difference is for BMW?

[BMWeber]

Originally Posted by spinzero

Can you define "artificially restrained" in your context?

BMW has already done all the R&D necessary to extract 255HP out of the 3.0L N52 reliably with US pump gas. Exactly how much they saved by sticking lower performance intake manifod to the 328i, I do not know. But that cost is very unlikely to be a meaningful portion of the price drop of ~$4K going from the 330i to 328i.

In the first year of E90 production, (2006) BMW offered two versions of N52. The full blown version in the 330i, and the detuned version (with single stage intake and different ECU tuning) in the 325i. Interestingly, the 325i's power was down by 16%, and price was lower by 15% from the 330i. Next year BMW rolled in the 335i, along with the new 328i. Guess what. This time the 328i's power was down by 10%, and price was lower by 10% from the 330i. It's as if they decide the output at a pricing meeting and gave the engineers the numbers. Is this artificial enough? :iono:

This thread we are all posting is called "Anything You Don't Like About 1 Coupe?", and to many of us this trick of detuning the engine to almost exactly match the price point so as to push the upper model is an unwelcome marketing technique, something that we don't like about the 1 coupe. A very common one no dout, as Porsche does it to its entire line up, but still pretty lame. (And at least they have the conscience to vary the displacement)

It is particularly bad in this case of 28 vs. 35, because the lower model that got speced according to its price, and not to its potential, is the only choice for an NA engine. This "buy the upper model if you are unhappy" argument woud've worked much better in the case of 25 vs. 30. At least 25 had slightly better fuel economy. Not so much now since, apparently to many's dismay, some of us just don't want the almighty twin turbo.

If you don't see this point, move on. Either don't post in this thread, or complain about something else. This thread is not "let's all agree on what we don't like about the 1 coupe". People will hate different things about this car, and we better get used to it. You don't see me jumping on people that like the exterior design of this car, just because I hate hate hate the head lamp design.

I swear I won't post any more on this. :frown:

I understand you point and I understand what this thread is about. I honestly don't think your points are valid. If you had just said you wish they had brought a 130 vs the 128 I would agree.

like you said this is a thread about what you don't like, wish someone had thrown out an off topic sigh at me so this is my last post not complaining about something My bad sorry :iono:

[Brownergy]

Originally Posted by MPower

Couple of comments:

1. K/N Filters add next to nothing in terms of power. An improved intake will certainly help but I would question 25whp.

2. Regardless, the N54 can easily gain at least 50whp (even more torque) by a simple ECU modification. Get an improved intercooler and you are talking 400 horsepower pretty easily. Not to mention that the installation cost of an ECU upgrade is next to nothing, which certainly can not be said for header installations.

With these modifications, a 135i would easily be below 4.5 seconds to sixty at which point the car would almost be too fast for the road (if it isnt already out of the box).

1. I said K/N filter/intake, which you may be right on the LS3, I think it makes a max gain of 15whp, but....... on the Z06 LS7 it does make over 27whp.

2. I was definetly talking about the 128i engine, which IMO is lacking the performance that a 3.0L I6 engine should have. Just look at the M3 motor, only 1L bigger but 200hp more. I'm also disagreeing that it's a world class engine. I'm not knocking it as a nice motor, just not sure how it got the world class description.

So yes, adding simple bolt ons to the 135i's turbo motor should yield great gains, not denying that at all. I've been impressed with the power the 335i's have been putting down. It suggests the motors are underrated.

Overall I agree with you MPower, I feel as if the 128i's motor could have been a lot more. Having a 320hp I6TT 135i and a 270hp I6 128i would be a pretty stout lineup IMO.

My bad for the I6/V6 mistake, I knew the N-series BMW motors were I6's, I just wish they were V6's.

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by BMWeber

I understand you point and I understand what this thread is about. I honestly don't think your points are valid. If you had just said you wish they had brought a 130 vs the 128 I would agree.

like you said this is a thread about what you don't like, wish someone had thrown out an off topic sigh at me so this is my last post not complaining about something My bad sorry :iono:

Hey, don't be sorry. When the good people at the CERN particle accelerator invented the internet, they clearly did it so that we can all argue over it during work. :biggrin:

I think we killed this thread. Please someone post someting more legitimate like cupholders and glove boxes and radio antennas and the number of spokes on the rim!

[Brownergy]

Originally Posted by Garrett

LOL...

You have to remove your head from BMW and look at the automotive industry for 15 years to get a firm grasp of the level of engineering that goes into BMW's engine. This might help.

Secondly, it not about how many cylinders you have, but the liters. Yes, the Honds's 2.2l engine is impressive, but wouldn't work in this application. Just like BMW designed a new engine for their M3, because it's racing heritage it will now come with a 4.0liter 420hp that revs to 8300rpm. So, what was your point?

Thirdly, Chevrolet's LS3 (another excellent engine) is a 6.2l and has 436hp, yet BMW's n54 has more torque down low and is capable of nearly the same numbers with only 3.0l, thats 3.2 less liters! The LS3 is too heavy for an application like the 135i, so I don't see you point.

Though, BMW does have a 5L engine that produces 507hp and revs to 8,250rpms.... So I again fail to see your correlation or application in that car segment, either.

Also, BMW doesn't make a V6 as you suggested, they are Inline-6's.

Oh, almost forgot.. Read THIS and go back for 10 years and see what World Class Manufacturer is on the list every year..!





-Garrett

Okay, I'm still not getting it, where in your links is the 3.0L I6 w/ 230hp? I see the TT model, a 255hp model, where's the one coming in the 128i?

If you are indeed pointing me to the higher output NA 3.0L I6, then you're pretty much agreeing with me an MPower that they need to put the better world class NA motor in the 128.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by BMWeber

I see it as one motor having higher performance MORE EXPENSIVE intake and Exhaust.

My last comment here. Your assumption is that a higher performance product must be a more expensive product which is untrue. Even if you factor is a slight price increase for the full N52, the differences between a 128i and 130i would be no more than 500 dollars.

Originally Posted by spinzero

I swear I won't post any more on this. :frown:

Ya, Im done on this 128i engine argument. Any further posts will just reiterate what you or I have already said. It's just a shame that BMW wont give us the easily extractable horsepower.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by MPower

spinzero is right, you are just a human-brickwall hybird....

Understand two things: the problem is the engine overheating; the solution is the oil cooler. The oil coolers aren't failing, the engines are which is causing the necessary need of oil coolers.

A car going into limp mode IS an example of the car overheating! Of course, with the advanced engine technology now-a-days, the engine will not let itself go over a certain point where serious engine damage occurs. However, numerous owners are reporting engine temperatures above 300 degrees which is where serious oil damage occurs (which eventually causes engine damage).

And if you think that an engine going into limp mode after two laps is an acceptable thing...

Post me the link. I have read up on BMW EfficientDynamics but never noticed anyone saying that the N54 is designed to run at 300 degrees.

Thanks for those specifics.

Under 30k, could be anything from 27-29,995, and mid 30s could be anything from 34-37,000. Makes a HUGE difference.

WHAT?!? Did you just ignore everything that spinzero and I have told you? Get this into your head: the N52 in the 128/328/528/Z4 is a neutered version of the N53 in the 130/330/530/Z4. There is no denying that.

Wow is this statement awful....

First: I am buying a BMW! Why should I not be focused on performance? I guess the Ultimate Driving Machine only applies to specifically designated models.

Second: How can you call the price difference between the 128i and 135i a "nominal" difference? I wish everyone had the imaginary budget you claim to have. As I have said before, if price wasnt issue, I would be looking at an M3. Not a 1-Series. It is an entry-level model for a reason. You can only afford what you can afford.

For the same price, every one of my wants could be satisfied. Instead, BMW is sending us a neutered engine with artificially restrained high-rpm performance.

Oh my gosh... some reason! Of course the only reason I am looking at the base model is because of budget. And as I have mentioned numerous times, there is no reason why the base model could not satisfy all of my wants. To suggest that base-model BMWs are not performance-orientated models is completely ridiculous.

OMG...

The n54 is a twin turbocharged engine (biturbo) it will run at a higher temp than it's other cars, and it operating temp is also higher. Obviously not 300 degree's. Yet no car should see that temp because it should go into limp mode liong before that.

There ARE 335i in Cali that do NOT have an oil cooler that are NOT overheating, but they are also not being flogged around a track. If your going to do that your going to need an oil cooler. BW's mistake is not putting one on every 335i, regardless of the trim.

The operating temp of the n54 is not defined, but 280 degrees IS within he n54's operating temperature. I think limp mode sets in at 300 degrees, but an operating temp of 250 though higher than most cars is totally acceptable. That might be your concern because most people arn't use to seeing this.

Only a hand ful of people have had their 335i's go into limp mode due to heat... and BMW will add an Oil cooler to those vehichles on the owners request. Which to me is pretty sh!tty, but corrected the problem non-the-less.

Your comment above is absolutly rediculious:

Originally Posted by MPower

Understand two things: the problem is the engine overheating; the solution is the oil cooler. The oil coolers aren't failing, the engines are which is causing the necessary need of oil coolers.

What kind of rediculious statement is that? The engine is causing the need for an oil cooler..? Wow... this must be new technology for BMW to invent an Oil Cooler. Since no engine before it caused the need.

Understand that every turbo engine has an oil cooler. The fact that BMW felt confident not to put them on some of their turbocharged engine says alot. But to say the oil coolers aren't failing, but it's the engines problem of causing heat, that in-turn requires an oil cooler is laughable.

So your still hung up on Motor Trends initial testing of the 335i because it went into limp mode to protect itself when they were flogging it around a track..?

Oil cooler = Problem solved!

135i = oil cooler

=end of discussion


Yes, they cost of the 1series can be within the range you suggested, so? $30k for base or $37k for the upper model, depending on options. No diff than the cheaper Mustang range or any other car line. You still getting performance and value in either model. It's still a BMW and it will still handle, ride and DRIVE like a BMW. Thats part of their marvelous DNA.

It's just going to cost $4k-$5k for the top model. Regardless of what engine BMW COULD've put in the 128i (130i), they didn't. So lurk on these boards, complaining, trolling and hoping... but when reality sets in, you'll see that $5k more for a sub 5.0s car for around $35k with this level of luxury will be hard to find!






-Garrett

[imported_MPower]

A human-brickwall hybrid...


(I'm going to keep the phrase if you dont mind spinzero... so perfectly describes this situation)

[Bourbon]

I for one am another hater of the headlights. Too "squinty" in my opinion... Yes, that usually equates to a more muscular look, but I think its application on the 1er looks more myopic than muscular.

Also, as has been stated earlier, the lack of LSD on a performance coupe is a little disturbing, but in light of all the 1er's obvious merits, I feel it can be taken as a matter of course.

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by MPower

A human-brickwall hybrid...


(I'm going to keep the phrase if you dont mind spinzero... so perfectly describes this situation)

I don't mind, but you should call my manager first. :biggrin:

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by MPower

A human-brickwall hybrid...


(I'm going to keep the phrase if you dont mind spinzero... so perfectly describes this situation)

LOL, it your antagonistic way of saying I am right..! :w00t:





-Garrett

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by Garrett

LOL, it your antagonistic way of saying I am right..! :w00t:

Far from it...

It's my way of saying I am not going to waste anymore time talking with a human-brickwall hybrid.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by MPower

Far from it...

It's my way of saying I am not going to waste anymore time talking with a human-brickwall hybrid.

Far from right..? :iono:

Lets see, there IS a 128i comming to the United States. Correct..?

There is an upgraded "performance" orientated version called the 135i. Correct..?

The 135i will cost roughly $4k ~ $5k more than the base model. Correct..?

The BMW n52 motor is a world class engine, that is extemely smooth, efficient and offers a great driving experience. Correct..?

The N54 is another world class engine, that has set several standards in power to weight and effeciency. Nominated as engine of the year, and 1 of the 10 best engines in the world. Correct..?

The N54, doesn't overheat if it assembled with an oil cooler. Correct..?



Perhaps the wall of reality is hard to swallow. Correct?







-Garrett

[imported_Sweeper]

What I don't like about the 1 Series?

There is no M1 model..........yet.

[GreenMonster]

I want a 130i now :biggrin:

[taylor82]

I prefer the cruise control on the wheel like on the E46 as oppose to bieng on a stalk, don't use it too much but probably won't even bother getting the option now as the stalk looks shit!