Review: KW V3s and M3 suspension parts

[Orb]

Originally Posted by J Tyler

^A TorSen LSD like the HP Autowerks/Quaife has no affect on the balance of the car (aside from giving you the ability to do powerslides ). A 1.5-way or 2-way clutch-type LSD does have an affect on chassis balance, but not a TorSen.

+1 on those Vorshlag plates!

I’m not sure where you picked up the concept that LSD would not change the balance of the car as it is significant. First, a Quaife is not a Torsen and there are some major differences. The Quaife is heavily preloaded with the disk spring so a lot of the similarities end there. The big difference between a Quaife and clutch LSD is one locks and will induce a degree on understeer no matter what the ramp rate is.

The LSD changes the loading on each of the rear corners compared to an open diff since under acceleration the normal force increase on outside wheel not the inside wheel. The difference is in the orders of magnitude with respect to traction. It will completely change the way car feel and behaves under acceleration on corner exit.

Most importantly, having open diff vs LSD will change you whole approach from the being how you would tune the suspension. Unfortunately, having a car with open diff is a massive nose dive of compromises and is a lose situation in regards to suspension tuning.

Orb

[J Tyler]

Originally Posted by Orb

I’m not sure where you picked up the concept that LSD would not change the balance of the car as it is significant.

I 'picked up the concept' while doing diff development testing for MazdaSpeed North America in conjunction with Cusco and the TriPoint Speed World Challenge race team. Spending 9 hours straight driving one car after another, each with a different type of diff (TorSen/Gear, Salisbury, Viscous), different ramp angles, different clutch preload, different number of clutch plates..... That, plus countless tests with different kinds of sports and race cars with different types of diffs.

What I meant was, the Quaife LSD for these cars does not have a big affect on balance.

First, a Quaife is not a Torsen

Yes it is.

The Quaife is heavily preloaded with the disk spring so a lot of the similarities end there. The big difference between a Quaife and clutch LSD is one locks and will induce a degree on understeer no matter what the ramp rate is.

There is no such thing as ramp "rate". Diff ramps are measured by their angle (30 degrees, 60 degrees, 45 degrees, etc), not by a "rate".

TorSens use helical gears... there are no ramps.

The LSD changes the loading on each of the rear corners compared to an open diff since under acceleration the normal force increase on outside wheel not the inside wheel. The difference is in the orders of magnitude with respect to traction. It will completely change the way car feel and behaves under acceleration on corner exit.

More or less true...

Most importantly, having open diff vs LSD will change you whole approach from the being how you would tune the suspension.

When going from an open diff to a TorSen, there's not much of a difference in setup. A TorSen IS an open diff on decel, and does not lock very much on accel. So it has little affect on chassis setup. A Salisbury and/or Viscous diff does have a pretty big affect on balance, but we're not talking about those. We're talking about the Quaife/TorSen type.

[modbargains]

Great to see that everything worked out Lucas!

[Orb]

I 'picked up the concept' while doing diff development testing for MazdaSpeed North America in conjunction with Cusco and the TriPoint Speed World Challenge race team. Spending 9 hours straight driving one car after another, each with a different type of diff (TorSen/Gear, Salisbury, Viscous), different ramp angles, different clutch preload, different number of clutch plates..... That, plus countless tests with different kinds of sports and race cars with different types of diffs.What I meant was, the Quaife LSD for these cars does not have a big affect on balance.

If you saying that the Quaife doesn’t affect yaw and grip like other LSD then this would be true.

Quote:
First, a Quaife is not a Torsen

Yes it is.

A Quaife and Torsen are the same gear driven concept but it quickly ends there. You may want to go through the design and calculation as the online patents have all the info you need. Just in the Torsen family there are major differences. You are comparing apples to oranges and you need to look beyond what you think you know.

Quote:
The Quaife is heavily preloaded with the disk spring so a lot of the similarities end there. The big difference between a Quaife and clutch LSD is one locks and will induce a degree on understeer no matter what the ramp rate is.

There is no such thing as ramp "rate". Diff ramps are measured by their angle (30 degrees, 60 degrees, 45 degrees, etc), not by a "rate".

They call it a ramp for a reason. It has force and displacement thus a rate. If you wish to get technical a 30 degree angle is the result of a chosen rate. You should kind of know this…..

TorSens use helical gears... there are no ramps.

I’m sure that was implied….no?

Quote:
The LSD changes the loading on each of the rear corners compared to an open diff since under acceleration the normal force increase on outside wheel not the inside wheel. The difference is in the orders of magnitude with respect to traction. It will completely change the way car feel and behaves under acceleration on corner exit.
More or less true...

Actually, it is fact or is there something you disagree with as you don't seem sure. There is only more to add not take away.

Quote:
Most importantly, having open diff vs LSD will change you whole approach from the being how you would tune the suspension.
When going from an open diff to a TorSen, there's not much of a difference in setup. A TorSen IS an open diff on decel, and does not lock very much on accel. So it has little affect on chassis setup. A Salisbury and/or Viscous diff does have a pretty big affect on balance, but we're not talking about those. We're talking about the Quaife/TorSen type.

You contradicted yourself. You agree the load more or less changed significantly but then you go to say it doesn’t. Something has change so what is that? Anyway, my original point was that traction and loading is not an issue then one should tune their suspension so thier car is balanced as this can be achieved without any draw backs. Unless, you think one should just put a big bar on the front and have a 3 wheel wonder.

Orb

[Billj747]

http://www.houseofthud.com/differentials.htm

Quattro, Quaife, Torsen, Peloquin: (Torque Biasing Differentials)
Audi's Quattro (Audi's marketting name for all their AWD systems) using Torsen and the popular aftermarket Quaife systems use a set of worm gears inside the differential in place of the simple bevelled spider gears, which bind up when there's a resistive torque imbalance. That means, as long as both sides show equal resistance then they are free to rotate at different speeds, such as when going around a turn.

The whole thing is often called a "Torsen" system as in "Torque Sensing" (Torsen is actually a registered trademark, and the more generic term is Torque Biasing Differential or TBD) because it instantly reacts to torque imbalance transferring torque to the wheels that can use it most. There's a difference between the two main types of torque biasing diffs. Quattro's Torsen diffs used something developed by Gleason called invex gearing which is is really all about worm gears. A torque imbalance causes it to *try* to turn the low traction output shaft faster than the higher traction side, but that would cause the invex spider gears to turn, and they drive worm gears which have a greater mechanical advantage (due to the angle of the teeth) than the output sun gears have on the worm gears. That means that a multiple of the torque that would have gone to the low traction side actually goes to the high traction side. So if 20 ft-lbs of traction is at the low traction side, something like 80 ft-lbs goes to the side that can actually use it. A ratio of 4 to 1 or 5 to 1 is common but changing the gear teeth angles changes the ratio. The Quaife unit uses helical gears to accomplish very much the same thing, but the actual operation is not nearly as easy to understand. The helical gears float in pockets on the inside of the housing and apply radial and axial forces generated by the angle of the gear teeth. It can be tuned just like the invex gears to vary the torque ratio. Note however that without significant preload either torque biasing diff will not work well with a wheel completely off the ground. 0 ft-lbs time 4 is still 0. A simple braking trick helps though. (Note, the EDL system discussed above, actually works pretty well with a torsen diff. It activates rarely, but allows for much greater torque transfer when it does.) For this reason, they're rarely found on offroad 4x4 vehicles, the notable exception being the original Hummer H1, which has a note in the owner's manual explaining how to use the brakes and gas at the same time, should one or more tires be off the ground (as is not uncommon while offroading).

It is capable of going from an open differential to say 60% locked differential condition absolutely instantly (zero lag), so many would argue that it's about as close to perfect as it gets for performance driving. There are no clutches to wear out. Several AWD systems like the Audi Quattro system put a torsen diff in the center of the car to control slip between front and rear wheels. This system does not have the problem the VC does with the ABS. A torsen diff only distributes torque when it's under load. When it's freewheeling all the wheels can turn at different speeds as the ABS may desire.
(Note: The current Audi Quattro system only uses the torsen diff in the center, and some other LSD or just EDL at the axles. )

The disadvantages are that the mechanism is a bit heavier (in rotating mass, where it counts more), more mechanically complicated than some, is expensive, and can't be tuned or adjusted dynamically. Plus, it reacts so fast and is so even handed that it literally makes a torque biasing diff equipped AWD car a little boring when you'd really like to hang it all out. If you want to go 100mph in the snow nothing beats Quattro. A system that'll let you change the torque bias between front and rear dynamically will usually be more fun though.

BTW, I do think that a Torque Biasing Differential in a front wheel drive car is a good thing. If you plan on putting a blower on your engine, get a Torque Biasing Diff . . If you worry about EDL hammering and TFS a lot, get a torque biasing diff. It'll help you put down power on a twisty road, and reduces torque steer. I finally bought a TBD from the machinist Gary Peloquin (mechanically similar to the Quaife) that made my FWD GTI VR6 a joy to drive fast around sharp corners while full on the throttle, which is not normally fun in a higher powered FWD car.

So there it is.

[Orb]

Originally Posted by Billj747

http://www.houseofthud.com/differentials.htm

Quattro, Quaife, Torsen, Peloquin: (Torque Biasing Differentials)
Audi's Quattro (Audi's marketting name for all their AWD systems) using Torsen and the popular aftermarket Quaife systems use a set of worm gears inside the differential in place of the simple bevelled spider gears, which bind up when there's a resistive torque imbalance. That means, as long as both sides show equal resistance then they are free to rotate at different speeds, such as when going around a turn.

The whole thing is often called a "Torsen" system as in "Torque Sensing" (Torsen is actually a registered trademark, and the more generic term is Torque Biasing Differential or TBD) because it instantly reacts to torque imbalance transferring torque to the wheels that can use it most. There's a difference between the two main types of torque biasing diffs. Quattro's Torsen diffs used something developed by Gleason called invex gearing which is is really all about worm gears. A torque imbalance causes it to *try* to turn the low traction output shaft faster than the higher traction side, but that would cause the invex spider gears to turn, and they drive worm gears which have a greater mechanical advantage (due to the angle of the teeth) than the output sun gears have on the worm gears. That means that a multiple of the torque that would have gone to the low traction side actually goes to the high traction side. So if 20 ft-lbs of traction is at the low traction side, something like 80 ft-lbs goes to the side that can actually use it. A ratio of 4 to 1 or 5 to 1 is common but changing the gear teeth angles changes the ratio. The Quaife unit uses helical gears to accomplish very much the same thing, but the actual operation is not nearly as easy to understand. The helical gears float in pockets on the inside of the housing and apply radial and axial forces generated by the angle of the gear teeth. It can be tuned just like the invex gears to vary the torque ratio. Note however that without significant preload either torque biasing diff will not work well with a wheel completely off the ground. 0 ft-lbs time 4 is still 0. A simple braking trick helps though. (Note, the EDL system discussed above, actually works pretty well with a torsen diff. It activates rarely, but allows for much greater torque transfer when it does.) For this reason, they're rarely found on offroad 4x4 vehicles, the notable exception being the original Hummer H1, which has a note in the owner's manual explaining how to use the brakes and gas at the same time, should one or more tires be off the ground (as is not uncommon while offroading).

It is capable of going from an open differential to say 60% locked differential condition absolutely instantly (zero lag), so many would argue that it's about as close to perfect as it gets for performance driving. There are no clutches to wear out. Several AWD systems like the Audi Quattro system put a torsen diff in the center of the car to control slip between front and rear wheels. This system does not have the problem the VC does with the ABS. A torsen diff only distributes torque when it's under load. When it's freewheeling all the wheels can turn at different speeds as the ABS may desire.
(Note: The current Audi Quattro system only uses the torsen diff in the center, and some other LSD or just EDL at the axles. )

The disadvantages are that the mechanism is a bit heavier (in rotating mass, where it counts more), more mechanically complicated than some, is expensive, and can't be tuned or adjusted dynamically. Plus, it reacts so fast and is so even handed that it literally makes a torque biasing diff equipped AWD car a little boring when you'd really like to hang it all out. If you want to go 100mph in the snow nothing beats Quattro. A system that'll let you change the torque bias between front and rear dynamically will usually be more fun though.

BTW, I do think that a Torque Biasing Differential in a front wheel drive car is a good thing. If you plan on putting a blower on your engine, get a Torque Biasing Diff . . If you worry about EDL hammering and TFS a lot, get a torque biasing diff. It'll help you put down power on a twisty road, and reduces torque steer. I finally bought a TBD from the machinist Gary Peloquin (mechanically similar to the Quaife) that made my FWD GTI VR6 a joy to drive fast around sharp corners while full on the throttle, which is not normally fun in a higher powered FWD car.

So there it is.

Not really...it is yet another cut and paste form someone who doesn't know much. The clue should been 0 ft-lb x 4. This doesn’t happen in theory or practice....it is no even close to zero.

Orb

[Fair]

Originally Posted by Orb

As for camber plates, I would steer clear of Vorshlag camber plates. The engineering is good since they address thrust and do not have a fixed spring perch. The problem with these plates is that you lose over 1/3” of travel and the stack height is off by a lot. The end result of the stack height being off so much is over preloading the main spring and loss of droop travel and already helped one to many people with suspension problem because of lack of droop travel. The oversight is pretty much incompetence. The KW camber plates are the best I seen in the so far as deal with thrust and have compliance to compensate for spring binding. They are relatively noise free. Avoid any fixed perch camber plates and if do encounter them throw them in the trash with the greatest amount force.

Orb

Well, you are a good bit behind on our product development for 1 series camber plates. We have long ago revised our E82/E90 camber plate offerings to address any issues with certain strut types. If anyone has our plates from July-August of 2008, used with KW, Bilstein or OEM struts, please give us a call and I can send you some updated components that address any potential issues. I have posted this elsewhere already.



The issues stem from the odd OEM strut design on the 1 series - which uses an extremely short strut shaft yet strut body as long as the E46 OEM unit. KW & Bilstein kept this shaft style but AST and others have stuck with a shaft design more suited for additional droop travel. Our latest E82 camber plate revision allows for additional stack-up (ride height) and droop travel on the OEM, KW and Bilstein strut brands. These plates are built with entirely different parts to accommodate their limited travel.

Thanks for calling us incompetent -next time get your facts straight before blasting manufacturers publicly.

Originally Posted by Orb

Start with this one. There are some very knowledgeable people there so ask question once you sort out who the smart one are or do the opposite anything that others say in this forum. I am very serious.

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-suspe...ng-stiffening/

Orb

Nice way to endear yourself to the forum moderators here.

No bimmerforums/track forum? No cornercarvers forum? Seriously? Your best BMW suspension tech forum suggestion is on a Subaru forum?

OK, well if you insist on sending people there have them ask the racers there what they want and you will hear mostly: TiC or Racecomp. TiC is one of our dealers that sells our AST shocks with Vorshlag camber plates, and Racecomp sells our camber plates and even recommends AST from time to time over their own KW stuff. There is some good tech there, but there's plenty of "signal noise" also, like on most forums.

Terry Fair @ AST-USA & Vorshlag Motorsports

[Dangerlucas]

Terry, thanks for commenting on this. It's nice have the opinions from other suspension experts out there. Also I think many of us were not aware that there was a redesign to the camber plates to address the issues that Orb has mentioned. Knowing this definitely brings these back up in my list of possible options.

[Fair]

Originally Posted by Dangerlucas

Terry, thanks for commenting on this. It's nice have the opinions from other suspension experts out there. Also I think many of us were not aware that there was a redesign to the camber plates to address the issues that Orb has mentioned. Knowing this definitely brings these back up in my list of possible options.

Glad to hear it. Not to brag but there's nothing else out there like these plates. The same set of camber-caster plates can be built to work with coilover (2.25", 60mm or 2.5" diameter perches) or OEM style springs, and we can configure them to work with everything from OEM, Bilstein, KW, Koni, TCK, AST, Moton and JRZ struts.


Our 1 series plates are being sold by many BMW shops, including some former competitors

I kind of lashed out at Orb a bit much in my post, so took a breath then edited/toned down my entry a bit. Sorry for that, folks.

[jah29]

Terry-

So is this short strut shaft just on the 1-series or does it occur on all the vehicles with front suspension derived from the e90/92 3-series?

Does the fact that your plates are now designed to work with the short 1-series struts mean I would have to upgrade more parts than just the spring perches to switch from stock to aftermarket coilovers with a normal shaft/body length ratios?

I was trying to keep my question generic so the answer would be useful for everyone. In my case, I'm interested in using your camber plates with the stock shocks, and upgrading to Koni FSDs sometime pretty soon, and hopefully your AST 5300 someday. How would the plates change as I went through these modification.

thanks,
justin

[arrutled]

Originally Posted by Fair

Glad to hear it. Not to brag but there's nothing else out there like these plates. The same set of camber-caster plates can be built to work with coilover (2.25", 60mm or 2.5" diameter perches) or OEM style springs, and we can configure them to work with everything from OEM, Bilstein, KW, Koni, TCK, AST, Moton and JRZ struts.


Our 1 series plates are being sold by many BMW shops, including some former competitors

I kind of lashed out at Orb a bit much in my post, so took a breath then edited/toned down my entry a bit. Sorry for that, folks.

Sad, I kinda enjoyed the who is Orb bit.

[Orb]

Originally Posted by Fair

Well, you are a good bit behind on our product development for 1 series camber plates. We have long ago revised our E82/E90 camber plate offerings to address any issues with certain strut types. If anyone has our plates from July-August of 2008, used with KW, Bilstein or OEM struts, please give us a call and I can send you some updated components that address any potential issues. I have posted this elsewhere already.



The issues stem from the odd OEM strut design on the 1 series - which uses an extremely short strut shaft yet strut body as long as the E46 OEM unit. KW & Bilstein kept this shaft style but AST and others have stuck with a shaft design more suited for additional droop travel. Our latest E82 camber plate revision allows for additional stack-up (ride height) and droop travel on the OEM, KW and Bilstein strut brands. These plates are built with entirely different parts to accommodate their limited travel.

Thanks for calling us incompetent -next time get your facts straight before blasting manufacturers publicly.


Nice way to endear yourself to the forum moderators here.

No bimmerforums/track forum? No cornercarvers forum? Seriously? Your best BMW suspension tech forum suggestion is on a Subaru forum?

OK, well if you insist on sending people there have them ask the racers there what they want and you will hear mostly: TiC or Racecomp. TiC is one of our dealers that sells our AST shocks with Vorshlag camber plates, and Racecomp sells our camber plates and even recommends AST from time to time over their own KW stuff. There is some good tech there, but there's plenty of "signal noise" also, like on most forums.

Terry Fair @ AST-USA & Vorshlag Motorsports

Well, it is incompetence because you never measured anything in the first place before selling the kits or you wouldn’t be fixing a few major blunders. You can’t hide this so don’t even try or do we need to show a few pictures. I told you about the issues last summer and you have none of it. Now you have done some of what I said. I am still not sure you understand the relationship between the stack height and droop travel because you didn’t before and you have not demonstrated this in any way.

Show me the “Money” and account for how your product meets the OEM stack height. Having any components above the top the camber plate is not acceptable as it interfere with the strut tower and bar. Your talk about the OEM strut bar and how it worked but you are absolutely friggen clueless with a few of your comments. Your solution was to get rid of the strut support because it didn’t fit with your camber plate…I say hack. I also love how the strut nut hits the top tower…I say hack. Loss of travel is not acceptable which we know it was well over inch before! How much loss of travel is it now? You said it was okay to lose a 7 mm travel before but I say not. You also need to account for the natural sag in the OEM top mounts which is about 11-13 mm. If you can demonstrate that you actually designed the plates to fit correctly without an issue I will retract my comments but I doubt you can do this. I would rather be proven wrong that you got it right now so people do have a reliable choice.

Your coming across as job shop hack and you certainly have no technical background at all (I truly mean none!). Your product has the right fundamentals but the execution is poor for this application unless proven corrected so the ball is in your court.

Orb

[Billj747]

Originally Posted by Orb

Not really...it is yet another cut and paste form someone who doesn't know much. The clue should been 0 ft-lb x 4. This doesn’t happen in theory or practice....it is no even close to zero.

Orb

Yup. "www.houseofthud.com" shouldn't be expected to be a credible resource. I was hoping that someone like you who had the time could expand on the difference of Torsen and Quaife by this post. I guess not...

[Orb]

Originally Posted by Billj747

Yup. "www.houseofthud.com" shouldn't be expected to be a credible resource. I was hoping that someone like you who had the time could expand on the difference of Torsen and Quaife by this post. I guess not...

Sure, why is 0 ft-lb x 4 not true. How do the disk spring in the center work as the author of www.houseofthud.com missed out all together. If you don’t get this then in not sure I can explain this in layman terms in any way. Look at the online patent for all this which explain this in great detail including all the part in the assemblies. I’m sure you can do this yourself and spend at least a few hours getting up to speed on this. Your underhanded reply is just being smart ass anyway....right!

Orb

[Billj747]

Originally Posted by Orb

Sure, why is 0 ft-lb x 4 not true. How do the disk spring in the center work as the author of www.houseofthud.com missed out all together. If you don’t get this then in not sure I can explain this in layman terms in any way. Look at the online patent for all this which explain this in great detail including all the part in the assemblies. I’m sure you can do this yourself and spend at least a few hours getting up to speed on this. Your underhanded reply is just being smart ass anyway....right!

Orb

You are very knowledgeable and edgy.

To stay on topic and relevant to what has been said earlier, would you like to simply state the difference between Torsen and Quaife type LSDs to answer the argument in previous posts?

[slamako]

DangerLucas-thanks for the excellent write up.

EDIT-NEVERMIND. I had the work done at a shop that knew what they were talking about. Sorry for the wasted post

Slamako