BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-11-2009, 06:04 PM   #1
wolfson.tyler
Private First Class
wolfson.tyler's Avatar
12
Rep
108
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: May 2008

iTrader: (0)

Best camber plates???

ive been looking into getting camber plates because i plan to run some 8.5s in the front. Ive been looking at vorshlag are there any other options ?????
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2009, 07:17 PM   #2
akak1997
Major
akak1997's Avatar
62
Rep
1,159
Posts

Drives: BMW 135 @ 135mph
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2008 135i  [0.00]
I saw on another thread that Ground Control is making a plate with Camber and Caster adjustable independently, I'm not saying it's a Better choice over Vorshlag, just it has a feature that I desire. However, I still haven't seen the Ground Control plate on any 1er yet.
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2009, 07:26 PM   #3
wolfson.tyler
Private First Class
wolfson.tyler's Avatar
12
Rep
108
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: May 2008

iTrader: (0)

thanks for the help unfortunatley im still going to be running stock suspension for a while and ground control camber/caster plates can't work with stock suspension
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2009, 07:27 PM   #4
TMc135
Private First Class
TMc135's Avatar
18
Rep
170
Posts

Drives: 2011 E90 M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Columbus, OH

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
I posted about the GC camber/caster plate. If you call and speak to them, they will tell you it is currently available $400 (but not on their site). Great guys to talk to but I don't think they are looking to sell their plates separate. They said they are looking to pre-assemble the plates and suspension (no spring compressor needed) and sell them as a kit in an effort to differentiate. Not sure if they will budge on this but might be worth giving them a call. Keep us posted. Thanks.
__________________
DD & Track Car: 2011 E90 M3 w/Ohlin R&T's, Vorshlag camber plates, Hotchkis swaybars and other mods.

(2008 135i modded - SOLD, 2006 E90 330xi - SOLD, 1995 M3 track car - SOLD)
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2009, 07:30 PM   #5
wolfson.tyler
Private First Class
wolfson.tyler's Avatar
12
Rep
108
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: May 2008

iTrader: (0)

il check it out and keep you posted. Thanks for the insight!
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2009, 09:36 PM   #6
drivrswntd
Private First Class
drivrswntd's Avatar
15
Rep
139
Posts

Drives: 330ci
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA

iTrader: (2)

Vorshlag makes plates for our cars which are very high quality and will work with any shock/spring combo you could think of including stock.

http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info...roducts_id=199
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2009, 10:31 AM   #7
Fair
Banned
2
Rep
76
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by akak1997 View Post
I saw on another thread that ________ is making a plate with Camber and Caster adjustable independently, I'm not saying it's a Better choice over Vorshlag, just it has a feature that I desire.
Well, I thought I'd better reply - seems like there's some confusion regarding the Vorshlag plates.



Just like our BMW E30, E36 and E46 (and EVO X) camber plate designs, the Vorshlag 1 series/ E90 camber plate is both camber and caster adjustable, and each adjustment is independent of each other. In all likelihood you will probably never change the caster on a 1 series, no matter who's plates you are using.


135i with max negative camber travel - that's all there is to get, up top

This stems from the fact that the BMW 1 series chassis is SEVERELY camber limited and you end up trading away most of the positive caster adjustment to gain more negative camber travel - and getting more camber is much more important in these cars. Its not a question of the camber plate's design, its simply a limitation of the chassis. Still, we went ahead and made them camber and caster adjustable, because people always want to have a choice. BMW made the strut tower openings small and moved the entire towers outboard quite a bit relative to other BMW chassis. With anyone's 1 series plates you are lucky to get -2° to -3° of camber (depending heavily on ride height) with the strut top maxxed out at the inboard most spot on the strut tower's circular opening (as shown above). As with just about any strut front suspension car there is a trade off between camber and caster, since the strut tower opening is circular.

What many 1 series and E90/92 3 series racers are doing is using adjustable camber plates along with the E90/92 M3's longer lower front control arms. This increases potential negative camber. Sorry folks - blame BMW for making these cars this way. We can get up to -5° camber on the later E36 models and all E46 models just by sliding the camber plates in the stock strut towers - there is just more room for camber travel on those chassis.



Our E90 plate design has been revised and updated in several ways since we started making them in June of 2008 and we have a good setup for just about any strut brand and spring size available. We have gone to great lengths to increase suspension travel with the unusually short 1 series strut assembly.

Cheers,
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2009, 02:29 PM   #8
drivrswntd
Private First Class
drivrswntd's Avatar
15
Rep
139
Posts

Drives: 330ci
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA

iTrader: (2)

Excellent response, thanks for the info!
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2009, 10:01 PM   #9
TMc135
Private First Class
TMc135's Avatar
18
Rep
170
Posts

Drives: 2011 E90 M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Columbus, OH

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair View Post
Our E90 plate design has been revised and updated in several ways since we started making them in June of 2008 and we have a good setup for just about any strut brand and spring size available. We have gone to great lengths to increase suspension travel with the unusually short 1 series strut assembly.

Cheers,
Terry - is there a way for us to ensure we are getting the most recent/updated camber plates if we order from a vendor? Not sure how many versions you guys have gone through but I wouldn't want to order these and get a set from early on in the development process. Any codes, etc. on the plates we can confirm production/model? Thanks.

Tim
__________________
DD & Track Car: 2011 E90 M3 w/Ohlin R&T's, Vorshlag camber plates, Hotchkis swaybars and other mods.

(2008 135i modded - SOLD, 2006 E90 330xi - SOLD, 1995 M3 track car - SOLD)
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2009, 12:23 PM   #10
fourtailpipes
Major
110
Rep
1,338
Posts

Drives: the ladies crazy
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: , Location, Location!

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair View Post
With anyone's 1 series plates you are lucky to get -2° to -3° of camber (depending heavily on ride height) with the strut top maxxed out at the inboard most spot on the strut tower's circular opening (as shown above).
with a stock strut, couldn't the strut top slide under the circular opening for more camber? it looks like my OEM strut top nuts are below the plane of the chassis strut mounting surface, and the camber plates should only increase that clearance slightly, right? have you tried maxing out your plates with an oem strut yet?
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2009, 01:36 PM   #11
akak1997
Major
akak1997's Avatar
62
Rep
1,159
Posts

Drives: BMW 135 @ 135mph
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2008 135i  [0.00]
Thanks for clearing things up Terry! I know I probably not gonna change caster on the 1er, but it's always good to leave options open. Glad to know the Vorshlag plate will do that also.

btw, I'm going to Mason Engineering tomorrow to continue the R&D on the strut bar. Can't wait to see what he has
Appreciate 0
      03-19-2009, 08:50 AM   #12
Fair
Banned
2
Rep
76
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMc135 View Post
Terry - is there a way for us to ensure we are getting the most recent/updated camber plates if we order from a vendor? Not sure how many versions you guys have gone through but I wouldn't want to order these and get a set from early on in the development process. Any codes, etc. on the plates we can confirm production/model? Thanks.

Tim
Only a handful of our dealers have ordered these camber plates in large numbers and I'm sure they are all out of the old units. If in doubt ask them the thickness of the top ring - it should be .250" thick, not .103". That will be the latest design for everything (the latest bolt rings, top nuts, and lower spool pieces).



Quote:
Originally Posted by fourtailpipes View Post
with a stock strut, couldn't the strut top slide under the circular opening for more camber? it looks like my OEM strut top nuts are below the plane of the chassis strut mounting surface, and the camber plates should only increase that clearance slightly, right? have you tried maxing out your plates with an oem strut yet?
Well this amount of strut travel inboard (where the strut shaft would be under the sheetmetal of the strut tower) is limited by the smallness of the tower itself and the girth of the OEM spring (110mm inner diameter). There's just no room on these cars for more camber at the top without getting into some ugly modifications.

We're looking at other camber solutions as well. We had a racer suggest yesterday that we should make some offset bushings for the lower control arm, to add even more camber at the bottom. Any 135i owners in the Dallas area that want to help us test this idea? We'll likely need to put your car on our lift once to inspect/measure for the design and again for the test fitting of prototypes. Someone that does Track and/or Autocross events would help by giving us better test abuse.
Appreciate 0
      03-24-2009, 10:49 AM   #13
emongoose
Enlisted Member
emongoose's Avatar
3
Rep
48
Posts

Drives: '08 135i
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Ft. Wayne, IN

iTrader: (0)

Ok... here's a few camber (and Vorshlag) related questions.

My 135i is a street car, that I'd like to take out 5-10 times a year for autocross events. Even for the street I'd like to dial in more negative camber for spirited enjoyment of cloverleaf on and off ramps (honestly folks... it's a bit of a pig with the current camber settings). And when I want to go dodge cones, I'd like to be able to dial in another degree or so of negative camber.

So the functionality of the Vorshlag camber/caster plates seems perfect. Ideally before I head out to an event I could make the camber adjustment, load the sticky tires in the back (thank you fold-down seats) and go play on the weekend. Is it as easy as that, or will the camber adjustment affect the steering toe (I assume it would), so that I'd have to come up with a method of adjusting that as well. Obviously I prefer not to have to compromise when you have such an easily adjustable device in the Vorshlag (the compromise approach on my '01 corvette = greater street tire wear, dartiness on the street, gave up some at the track).

If I just start with camber plates only, how much negative camber can I expect to reasonably get with the OEM springs... that means stock ride height (is that the 2-3 deg discussed)? And if I add the M3 lower control arms? And if I add the M3 control arms, will I have issues in reaching a street setting (~ 1 deg neg I'm guessing). I guess that answer will depend on tire, which for the summer is a 215/40-18 Goodyear GS-D3, and the winter tire (see! I told ya it's a street car!) is a 215/45-18 Blizzak.

Eventually I'd consider upgrading to adjustable struts, but to keep expenses conservative (I hate this economy) and still be able to go play and have some fun, I think I can get away with some tires and more camber.

ps... where in the hell did this user pic come from???

Last edited by emongoose; 03-24-2009 at 10:50 AM.. Reason: post-post question
Appreciate 0
      03-24-2009, 11:10 AM   #14
Fair
Banned
2
Rep
76
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by emongoose View Post
Ok... here's a few camber (and Vorshlag) related questions.

My 135i is a street car, that I'd like to take out 5-10 times a year for autocross events. Even for the street I'd like to dial in more negative camber for spirited enjoyment of cloverleaf on and off ramps (honestly folks... it's a bit of a pig with the current camber settings). And when I want to go dodge cones, I'd like to be able to dial in another degree or so of negative camber.

So the functionality of the Vorshlag camber/caster plates seems perfect. Ideally before I head out to an event I could make the camber adjustment, load the sticky tires in the back (thank you fold-down seats) and go play on the weekend. Is it as easy as that, or will the camber adjustment affect the steering toe (I assume it would), so that I'd have to come up with a method of adjusting that as well. Obviously I prefer not to have to compromise when you have such an easily adjustable device in the Vorshlag (the compromise approach on my '01 corvette = greater street tire wear, dartiness on the street, gave up some at the track).

If I just start with camber plates only, how much negative camber can I expect to reasonably get with the OEM springs... that means stock ride height (is that the 2-3 deg discussed)? And if I add the M3 lower control arms? And if I add the M3 control arms, will I have issues in reaching a street setting (~ 1 deg neg I'm guessing). I guess that answer will depend on tire, which for the summer is a 215/40-18 Goodyear GS-D3, and the winter tire (see! I told ya it's a street car!) is a 215/45-18 Blizzak.

Eventually I'd consider upgrading to adjustable struts, but to keep expenses conservative (I hate this economy) and still be able to go play and have some fun, I think I can get away with some tires and more camber.
Like all BMWs when you "slam in the negative camber" for track/autocross use it pushes the front toe setting "out". If you plan ahead this can work in your favor...

When you get the car aligned after installing Vorshlag (or anyone's) camber plates on your 1 series, ask the alignment tech to max the camber to negative and set the total front toe out to about +1/8th, which helps turn-in. Then have them slide the camber to full positive (about a 2 degree change on these cars) and see what the toe ends up at. Usually this will be 0 toe to about -1/16th toe in, which is perfect for street use.

When you setup your initial street setting this way (as with most BMWs) you can just quickly adjust camber trackside and it moves the toe to the proper setting. Takes ~30 seconds per side - jack up one corner, loosen the three M8 nuts on the top, slide the wheel inboard to max negative camber, tighten the 3 nuts again, lower the car, then repeat on the other side. Thank you BMW for making these cars front steer ("rear steer" cars, with the steering linkages/tie rods behind the front axle centerline, alter toe in the opposite way and always require a toe setting change whenever the camber is adjusted).

We're working on a new offset lower control arm bushing design for the 1 series, which will add more negative camber (just like the M3 lower arms would - but a lot easier and less costly). Need to find a Dallas area tester to come by our shop for measurements...
Appreciate 0
      03-24-2009, 12:59 PM   #15
pkcormier
Private First Class
15
Rep
189
Posts

Drives: 135i
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Terry, I could come by and let you measure. Does it matter that I already have the M3 lower arms installed? And I think I need the new lower profile nut. My tower brace still requires spacers to clear the nut.

Philip
Appreciate 0
      03-24-2009, 05:25 PM   #16
Fair
Banned
2
Rep
76
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkcormier View Post
Terry, I could come by and let you measure. Does it matter that I already have the M3 lower arms installed? And I think I need the new lower profile nut. My tower brace still requires spacers to clear the nut.

Philip
Ahh, Philip - come on by any weekday from 9-6 and we'll swap in the new lower profile top nuts. The M3 arms should have the same bushing but it might be different - do you have your old 135i lower arms? If you do bring those too, please.
Appreciate 0
      03-24-2009, 09:20 PM   #17
pkcormier
Private First Class
15
Rep
189
Posts

Drives: 135i
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

I'll check my calendar for next week. Just back from Spring break and buried at work this week. Yes I have the stock lower arms. I can leave one with you if necessary.

Philip
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2009, 07:47 AM   #18
emongoose
Enlisted Member
emongoose's Avatar
3
Rep
48
Posts

Drives: '08 135i
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Ft. Wayne, IN

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair View Post
... When you setup your initial street setting this way (as with most BMWs) you can just quickly adjust camber trackside and it moves the toe to the proper setting. Takes ~30 seconds per side - jack up one corner, loosen the three M8 nuts on the top, slide the wheel inboard to max negative camber, tighten the 3 nuts again, lower the car, then repeat on the other side...
Most excellent news! Thank you very much for the well written explanation. You've sold me on using your plates and using your company.

I lived in the DFW area for 23 years, but moved to Indiana in 2004. Kinda far to come by to loan you my car for development. Too bad though. But it looks like pkcormier is there to help you out.

My best friend bought an '08 335i the same day I got the 135i. He lives in Arlington, so if you ever need a 335 for some development, I'm sure he'd be a willing participant (he's crazy that way).
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2009, 08:52 AM   #19
Fair
Banned
2
Rep
76
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkcormier View Post
I'll check my calendar for next week. Just back from Spring break and buried at work this week. Yes I have the stock lower arms. I can leave one with you if necessary.

Philip
Sounds good - just call us here at the shop and we'll figure out a time to get you in. If you could leave the stock lower arms here for a bit for the new bushing development we would greatly appreciate it.
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2009, 06:13 PM   #20
syenisch
Captain
syenisch's Avatar
United_States
110
Rep
810
Posts

Drives: 2015 435i Gran Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Winter Garden, FL

iTrader: (1)

I know changing camber affects toe and vice versa, but how changing camber affect caster?
Appreciate 0
      03-26-2009, 08:27 PM   #21
cpt97m3
AutoXer
34
Rep
683
Posts

Drives: 2009 135i
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: So Cal

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by syenisch View Post
I know changing camber affects toe and vice versa, but how changing camber affect caster?
if the camber adjustment is perfectly perpendicular to the fore-aft direction of the car, then it will not change caster. But this is not true for all camber plates. It think it should be true on the Vorshlag plates.

Chris
Appreciate 0
      03-27-2009, 11:44 PM   #22
MINI135i
Second Lieutenant
139
Rep
268
Posts

Drives: 2019 M2C and 2013 FR-S
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Phoenix, AZ

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair View Post
Our E90 plate design has been revised and updated in several ways since we started making them in June of 2008 and we have a good setup for just about any strut brand and spring size available. We have gone to great lengths to increase suspension travel with the unusually short 1 series strut assembly.

Cheers,

Fair,

I have the E36 branded Vorshlag camber plates with double row bearings (fantastic product btw!) installed with my TC Kline coilovers. I bought everything direct from TC Kline, hence the older design. How much suspension travel am I losing in comparison to the newly designed E90/E82 camber plates? If I am looking at it correctly, and I could be wrong, the new thicker designed ring would decrease suspension travel slightly, right?

And secondly, how much overall suspension travel does one lose by using the Vorshlag E90/E82 camber plate compared to stock?

See my install thread here: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231377


Thanks.

.

Last edited by MINI135i; 03-28-2009 at 11:40 AM..
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:26 AM.




1addicts
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST