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03-11-2009, 07:17 PM | #2 |
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I saw on another thread that Ground Control is making a plate with Camber and Caster adjustable independently, I'm not saying it's a Better choice over Vorshlag, just it has a feature that I desire. However, I still haven't seen the Ground Control plate on any 1er yet.
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03-11-2009, 07:27 PM | #4 |
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I posted about the GC camber/caster plate. If you call and speak to them, they will tell you it is currently available $400 (but not on their site). Great guys to talk to but I don't think they are looking to sell their plates separate. They said they are looking to pre-assemble the plates and suspension (no spring compressor needed) and sell them as a kit in an effort to differentiate. Not sure if they will budge on this but might be worth giving them a call. Keep us posted. Thanks.
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03-11-2009, 09:36 PM | #6 |
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Vorshlag makes plates for our cars which are very high quality and will work with any shock/spring combo you could think of including stock.
http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info...roducts_id=199 |
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03-12-2009, 10:31 AM | #7 | |
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Just like our BMW E30, E36 and E46 (and EVO X) camber plate designs, the Vorshlag 1 series/ E90 camber plate is both camber and caster adjustable, and each adjustment is independent of each other. In all likelihood you will probably never change the caster on a 1 series, no matter who's plates you are using. 135i with max negative camber travel - that's all there is to get, up top This stems from the fact that the BMW 1 series chassis is SEVERELY camber limited and you end up trading away most of the positive caster adjustment to gain more negative camber travel - and getting more camber is much more important in these cars. Its not a question of the camber plate's design, its simply a limitation of the chassis. Still, we went ahead and made them camber and caster adjustable, because people always want to have a choice. BMW made the strut tower openings small and moved the entire towers outboard quite a bit relative to other BMW chassis. With anyone's 1 series plates you are lucky to get -2° to -3° of camber (depending heavily on ride height) with the strut top maxxed out at the inboard most spot on the strut tower's circular opening (as shown above). As with just about any strut front suspension car there is a trade off between camber and caster, since the strut tower opening is circular. What many 1 series and E90/92 3 series racers are doing is using adjustable camber plates along with the E90/92 M3's longer lower front control arms. This increases potential negative camber. Sorry folks - blame BMW for making these cars this way. We can get up to -5° camber on the later E36 models and all E46 models just by sliding the camber plates in the stock strut towers - there is just more room for camber travel on those chassis. Our E90 plate design has been revised and updated in several ways since we started making them in June of 2008 and we have a good setup for just about any strut brand and spring size available. We have gone to great lengths to increase suspension travel with the unusually short 1 series strut assembly. Cheers, |
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03-12-2009, 10:01 PM | #9 | |
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Tim
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DD & Track Car: 2011 E90 M3 w/Ohlin R&T's, Vorshlag camber plates, Hotchkis swaybars and other mods.
(2008 135i modded - SOLD, 2006 E90 330xi - SOLD, 1995 M3 track car - SOLD) |
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03-13-2009, 12:23 PM | #10 |
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with a stock strut, couldn't the strut top slide under the circular opening for more camber? it looks like my OEM strut top nuts are below the plane of the chassis strut mounting surface, and the camber plates should only increase that clearance slightly, right? have you tried maxing out your plates with an oem strut yet?
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03-13-2009, 01:36 PM | #11 |
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Thanks for clearing things up Terry! I know I probably not gonna change caster on the 1er, but it's always good to leave options open. Glad to know the Vorshlag plate will do that also.
btw, I'm going to Mason Engineering tomorrow to continue the R&D on the strut bar. Can't wait to see what he has |
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03-19-2009, 08:50 AM | #12 | ||
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We're looking at other camber solutions as well. We had a racer suggest yesterday that we should make some offset bushings for the lower control arm, to add even more camber at the bottom. Any 135i owners in the Dallas area that want to help us test this idea? We'll likely need to put your car on our lift once to inspect/measure for the design and again for the test fitting of prototypes. Someone that does Track and/or Autocross events would help by giving us better test abuse. |
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03-24-2009, 10:49 AM | #13 |
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Ok... here's a few camber (and Vorshlag) related questions.
My 135i is a street car, that I'd like to take out 5-10 times a year for autocross events. Even for the street I'd like to dial in more negative camber for spirited enjoyment of cloverleaf on and off ramps (honestly folks... it's a bit of a pig with the current camber settings). And when I want to go dodge cones, I'd like to be able to dial in another degree or so of negative camber. So the functionality of the Vorshlag camber/caster plates seems perfect. Ideally before I head out to an event I could make the camber adjustment, load the sticky tires in the back (thank you fold-down seats) and go play on the weekend. Is it as easy as that, or will the camber adjustment affect the steering toe (I assume it would), so that I'd have to come up with a method of adjusting that as well. Obviously I prefer not to have to compromise when you have such an easily adjustable device in the Vorshlag (the compromise approach on my '01 corvette = greater street tire wear, dartiness on the street, gave up some at the track). If I just start with camber plates only, how much negative camber can I expect to reasonably get with the OEM springs... that means stock ride height (is that the 2-3 deg discussed)? And if I add the M3 lower control arms? And if I add the M3 control arms, will I have issues in reaching a street setting (~ 1 deg neg I'm guessing). I guess that answer will depend on tire, which for the summer is a 215/40-18 Goodyear GS-D3, and the winter tire (see! I told ya it's a street car!) is a 215/45-18 Blizzak. Eventually I'd consider upgrading to adjustable struts, but to keep expenses conservative (I hate this economy) and still be able to go play and have some fun, I think I can get away with some tires and more camber. ps... where in the hell did this user pic come from??? Last edited by emongoose; 03-24-2009 at 10:50 AM.. Reason: post-post question |
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03-24-2009, 11:10 AM | #14 | |
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When you get the car aligned after installing Vorshlag (or anyone's) camber plates on your 1 series, ask the alignment tech to max the camber to negative and set the total front toe out to about +1/8th, which helps turn-in. Then have them slide the camber to full positive (about a 2 degree change on these cars) and see what the toe ends up at. Usually this will be 0 toe to about -1/16th toe in, which is perfect for street use. When you setup your initial street setting this way (as with most BMWs) you can just quickly adjust camber trackside and it moves the toe to the proper setting. Takes ~30 seconds per side - jack up one corner, loosen the three M8 nuts on the top, slide the wheel inboard to max negative camber, tighten the 3 nuts again, lower the car, then repeat on the other side. Thank you BMW for making these cars front steer ("rear steer" cars, with the steering linkages/tie rods behind the front axle centerline, alter toe in the opposite way and always require a toe setting change whenever the camber is adjusted). We're working on a new offset lower control arm bushing design for the 1 series, which will add more negative camber (just like the M3 lower arms would - but a lot easier and less costly). Need to find a Dallas area tester to come by our shop for measurements... |
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03-24-2009, 12:59 PM | #15 |
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Terry, I could come by and let you measure. Does it matter that I already have the M3 lower arms installed? And I think I need the new lower profile nut. My tower brace still requires spacers to clear the nut.
Philip |
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03-24-2009, 05:25 PM | #16 |
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Ahh, Philip - come on by any weekday from 9-6 and we'll swap in the new lower profile top nuts. The M3 arms should have the same bushing but it might be different - do you have your old 135i lower arms? If you do bring those too, please.
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03-24-2009, 09:20 PM | #17 |
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I'll check my calendar for next week. Just back from Spring break and buried at work this week. Yes I have the stock lower arms. I can leave one with you if necessary.
Philip |
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03-25-2009, 07:47 AM | #18 | |
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I lived in the DFW area for 23 years, but moved to Indiana in 2004. Kinda far to come by to loan you my car for development. Too bad though. But it looks like pkcormier is there to help you out. My best friend bought an '08 335i the same day I got the 135i. He lives in Arlington, so if you ever need a 335 for some development, I'm sure he'd be a willing participant (he's crazy that way). |
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03-25-2009, 08:52 AM | #19 |
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Sounds good - just call us here at the shop and we'll figure out a time to get you in. If you could leave the stock lower arms here for a bit for the new bushing development we would greatly appreciate it.
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03-26-2009, 08:27 PM | #21 | |
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03-27-2009, 11:44 PM | #22 | |
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Fair, I have the E36 branded Vorshlag camber plates with double row bearings (fantastic product btw!) installed with my TC Kline coilovers. I bought everything direct from TC Kline, hence the older design. How much suspension travel am I losing in comparison to the newly designed E90/E82 camber plates? If I am looking at it correctly, and I could be wrong, the new thicker designed ring would decrease suspension travel slightly, right? And secondly, how much overall suspension travel does one lose by using the Vorshlag E90/E82 camber plate compared to stock? See my install thread here: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231377 Thanks. . Last edited by MINI135i; 03-28-2009 at 11:40 AM.. |
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