M1 vs competition

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by BForbes

Oh without a doubt man. But we're confined to keeping the debate to "base" Corvettes. No problems with that. Nobody messes with the performance of the General's vette.I've learned that the hard way over the years. Enough said.

Was that a Colin Powell reference? I saw him speak a few years back and half of his speech was about his Vette. So much for national security

[AlBel1214]

^^^^ haha nice...

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

Was that a Colin Powell reference? I saw him speak a few years back and half of his speech was about his Vette. So much for national security

It dosen't surprise me that he owns one.

I hope I'm not misunderstood here. I would take a Cayman S over a base C6 Corvette or GrandSport for that matter. The Porsche without a doubt gives more feedback and is arguably the best sports car to date at that price point. I've been a member of several car boards(American, European and Japanese) over the years. The stories of that car is consistent across the board. Same thing with the magazines. It's just too much to ignore. Too bad it starts at 60k with nothing in it.

The General has positioned the Corvette to compete across all spectrums. I can count at least 4 that are legit. The Base, Grandsport, Z06 and ZR-1. Even the "base" car is running mid 12's in the quartermile. You have the ZR-1 reeling in 300k Ferrari's and out handling Ariel Atoms. I'm more of a Ford guy than GM for various reasons. The day GM gives these cars a smidge more steering feel and a Cadillac interior I'll say two words: GAME OVER.

^^^With that said, I pray that the M1 is a legit competitor to the Porsche Cayman S!

[My135]

I agreed and I wished BMW target Cayman S as M1's competitor and priced it at mid-40.

[Trier Germany]

Originally Posted by BForbes

Wow, and that 7:59 was with the LS2 motor?!?! I would only imagine the LS3 doing a little better.

Hp means nothing on the Ring. GM time is not official since it hasn't been tested by a non biased party it is more likely an 8:10 ish. I visit the ring often and vettes do not fair well with this track. Even in organized racing VLN racing at the ring they get man handled by less Hp cars all the time Porsche owns them on this track! Heres some specs on the C6 race car it has about 150 Hp more than porsche and still gets man handled! You could bring your vette here to Europe and see for your self?

The term theres no replacement for displacement isn't true on the ring

· Vorbereitet nach VLN Reglement SP8
· V8 Frontmotor mit 6 Gang Transaxle - Getriebe und Hinterradantrieb
Motor
· 6,2 Liter V8 Motor programmiert für 98 Oktan Benzin
· Trockensumpf - System
· Motorsport Motor- Management - System
· Motorsport Motor - Kabelbaum
· Edelstahl - Fächerkrümmer mit Motorsport - Katalysator und - Schalldämpfer
· Angepasstes Kühlsystem für Wasser, Motor, Getriebe und Lenkung
· Leistung 441 KW ( 600 PS ) bei 6800 U/min
· Drehmoment 660 NM bei 5600 U/min

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by Trier Germany

Hp means nothing on the Ring. GM time is not official since it hasn't been tested by a non biased party it is more likely an 8:10 ish. I visit the ring often and vettes do not fair well with this track. Even in organized racing VLN racing at the ring they get man handled by less Hp cars all the time Porsche owns them on this track! Heres some specs on the C6 race car it has about 150 Hp more than porsche and still gets man handled! You could bring your vette here to Europe and see for your self?

The term theres no replacement for displacement isn't true on the ring

· Vorbereitet nach VLN Reglement SP8
· V8 Frontmotor mit 6 Gang Transaxle - Getriebe und Hinterradantrieb
Motor
· 6,2 Liter V8 Motor programmiert für 98 Oktan Benzin
· Trockensumpf - System
· Motorsport Motor- Management - System
· Motorsport Motor - Kabelbaum
· Edelstahl - Fächerkrümmer mit Motorsport - Katalysator und - Schalldämpfer
· Angepasstes Kühlsystem für Wasser, Motor, Getriebe und Lenkung
· Leistung 441 KW ( 600 PS ) bei 6800 U/min
· Drehmoment 660 NM bei 5600 U/min

Have you ever heard of a Corvette ZR-1 or Viper ACR? Please spare me this HP means nothing on the ring. It's not the sole determining factor but is of immense value. I never stated the one with the most horsepower wins. You have to look at the power to weight ratio as well and the methods each car has of putting the power down. Once again, see Corvette ZR-1 and Viper ACR. These cars are in some strange company on that famous German track.

[Trier Germany]

Originally Posted by BForbes

It dosen't surprise me that he owns one.

I hope I'm not misunderstood here. I would take a Cayman S over a base C6 Corvette or GrandSport for that matter. The Porsche without a doubt gives more feedback and is arguably the best sports car to date at that price point. I've been a member of several car boards(American, European and Japanese) over the years. The stories of that car is consistent across the board. Same thing with the magazines. It's just too much to ignore. Too bad it starts at 60k with nothing in it.

The General has positioned the Corvette to compete across all spectrums. I can count at least 4 that are legit. The Base, Grandsport, Z06 and ZR-1. Even the "base" car is running mid 12's in the quartermile. You have the ZR-1 reeling in 300k Ferrari's and out handling Ariel Atoms. I'm more of a Ford guy than GM for various reasons. The day GM gives these cars a smidge more steering feel and a Cadillac interior I'll say two words: GAME OVER.

^^^With that said, I pray that the M1 is a legit competitor to the Porsche Cayman S!

Well said , I like that you appreciate a true drivers car!

[Trier Germany]

Originally Posted by BForbes

Have you ever heard of a Corvette ZR-1 or Viper ACR? Please spare me this HP means nothing on the ring. It's not the sole determining factor but is of immense value. I never stated the one with the most horsepower wins. You have to look at the power to weight ratio as well and the methods each car has of putting the power down. Once again, see Corvette ZR-1 and Viper ACR. These cars are in some strange company on that famous German track.

The cars you mentioned are very special cars! The ACR was designed with trying to break the Nordscheife record! The ZR1 is a supercar in every way imaginable.

If you read my post i visit the Ring often i have a Jahreskarte which means unlimited laps. I Visit all of the Langstrecke meistershaft races and corvettes and vipers are entered in this series and they get schooled by less Hp cars all the time.

[SF848]

Originally Posted by Trier Germany

Hp means nothing on the Ring. GM time is not official since it hasn't been tested by a non biased party it is more likely an 8:10 ish. I visit the ring often and vettes do not fair well with this track. Even in organized racing VLN racing at the ring they get man handled by less Hp cars all the time Porsche owns them on this track! Heres some specs on the C6 race car it has about 150 Hp more than porsche and still gets man handled! You could bring your vette here to Europe and see for your self?

how did yo go from "kick the sh$t out of" to "drivers race" to "man handled"?

Are you not referring to the same comparison with each of these?

And why in the first place did you make a comparison of buying 2 cars that would cost over 60k (M3 and Porsche) to a base vette and a mustang?

Isn't the comparison usually the other way around? comparing buying those 2 cars to the Zr1 would make more sense to me... and wouldn't both get destroyed by the ZR1?

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by Trier Germany

The cars you mentioned are very special cars! The ACR was designed with trying to break the Nordscheife record! The ZR1 is a supercar in every way imaginable.

If you read my post i visit the Ring often i have a Jahreskarte which means unlimited laps. I Visit all of the Langstrecke meistershaft races and corvettes and vipers are entered in this series and they get schooled by less Hp cars all the time.

You're a lucky guy. I plan on tackling the ring in August. It should be my first time. I've seen Corvettes get passed by Miatas! It's all about whose behind the wheel in most circumstances. Yes, they are special cars but look at how many cars are ran on that track in their pre-production phase.Anyhow, we're WAAAAYY off-topic. We've agreed to disagree on this topic. Lets keep listing M1 potential competitors!!!

[NYC6]

Originally Posted by Trier Germany

Hp means nothing on the Ring. GM time is not official since it hasn't been tested by a non biased party it is more likely an 8:10 ish. I visit the ring often and vettes do not fair well with this track. Even in organized racing VLN racing at the ring they get man handled by less Hp cars all the time Porsche owns them on this track! Heres some specs on the C6 race car it has about 150 Hp more than porsche and still gets man handled! You could bring your vette here to Europe and see for your self?

The term theres no replacement for displacement isn't true on the ring

· Vorbereitet nach VLN Reglement SP8
· V8 Frontmotor mit 6 Gang Transaxle - Getriebe und Hinterradantrieb
Motor
· 6,2 Liter V8 Motor programmiert für 98 Oktan Benzin
· Trockensumpf - System
· Motorsport Motor- Management - System
· Motorsport Motor - Kabelbaum
· Edelstahl - Fächerkrümmer mit Motorsport - Katalysator und - Schalldämpfer
· Angepasstes Kühlsystem für Wasser, Motor, Getriebe und Lenkung
· Leistung 441 KW ( 600 PS ) bei 6800 U/min
· Drehmoment 660 NM bei 5600 U/min

HP means nothing at the Ring? Come on man, when it comes to tracks where HP is important its that one! Nurburgring is one of the fastest, most demanding tracks in the world. Jackie Stewart didnt nickname it "Green Hell" for being a tight,slow, HP doesnt matter track.

And the LS2 Corvette time is an official time. To say it doesnt count because it didnt have an "unbiased" driver is bunk! The Vette driver at the time was Dave Hill, Corvettes Chief Engineer, not even a professional driver. The man behind the wheel of the Cayman was Horst Von Saurma. He is a professional driver with high regards as being one of the best Ring Drivers testing cars today. For those that dont know of him do a search. The Cayman S was whipped by a stock production Corvette driven by a Non Pro helmsman! If Horst was at the wheel of the Vette it would have been even faster! You can try to spin it anyway you can but "that dog dont hunt"

Addition added-
The faster of the two Ring Cayman S time of 8:10.08 was achieved by The Porsche Official Test Driver, Walter Rohrl.(Using your standards of "unbiased" disqualification that time should be dismissed)

[My135]

Horse power is just like money that money is not everything but without it, you can't do anything; and every one wished you have more money, right? :-):-):-)

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by BForbes

I've seen Corvettes get passed by Miatas! It's all about whose behind the wheel in most circumstances.

Yes, it really does come down to the talent behind the wheel. I've attended a couple of BMW CCA high performance driving schools with a driver of a C5 Corvette in attendance. While he was quite fast in the straits, he was much slower than most of the other cars in the corners. (not due to the capability of the car) This was quite frustrating because we could only pass in the straits which is when he would pull away from the rest of us. Eventually, the instructors had to force him to let us pass. The other 'Vettes in attendance with capable drivers were very quick around the entire track.

[Trier Germany]

Peace treaty! I stirred the pot on the vette, it is a quite capable car just not on the Ring. I didn't realize how much love the vette gets here on the forum.


So now let's get back on topic. I personally don't think BMW is targeting chevrolet with the new baby M? Aud TTRS maybe, Porsche boxter/cayman maybe.

What market segment do they intend to tackle?

[NYC6]

You say peace treaty but in the same breathe give a passive-aggressive dig on the way out saying "not on the Ring". Your credibility is quite suspect with the several differing positions and outlandish statements you make and then try to explain facts away because you drive at the track and witness the Corvettes getting beat. Well, I for one will go by the hard fact #'s produced and recorded by EXPERTS in the field and are a click away for anyone to view. And from personal experience I myself have never lost a race to a Cayman S, not at Nurburgring but in my circles. Even when my C6 was bone stock! Peace-Out.

[southlight]

Fine, we all agree that the Vette is no M1 competitor and can get back to topic now, pretty please.


Best regards,
south

[jmunro]

I think the difficulty with finding competition for the M1 is that the 1 series is pretty unique to begin with.

I think the M1 will be competition for the M3 itself. If M1 is produced as a true M car, it's only a matter of mild tweaking/tuning to bring it up to the M3 unless there is a huge gap in engine performance.

The problem with the M1 competing with the Cayman is the engine location. A front mount engine is just never going to compete with all other things equal. At $35k for a used 2008 Cayman S, there may be no use even waiting for the M1 to be produced...

--edit---

Or wait a year and get a used 2009 Cayman S for a similar price

[Numb3rs]

The 135i is already a capable car... even with it's top-heavy stance, it does fairly well against thew Cayman S already.

The problem with Porsche's is that once you drive one, it's a drug. Their handling and feedback is legendary and really unexplainable unless you drive one. The Cayman S goes where you point it... no matter what.

That said, I opted out of buying one, because the other ancillary refinements were just not there. Same reason I got rid of my Z06..

On long drives (over 2 hours) you cannot stand to be in the car..

BMW are refined. The same way that a Porsche might hook you on it's handling, BMW hook you on refinement. NVH, balance, vision, etc.. Hard to put your finger on it, but it's there.




Secondly, this M1 is going to be a techno-monster. Carbon Fiber, bi-turbo, Valvetronic, etc.. the point is, that the M1 will be something that you can take on a date and azzholes next to you won't be revving their engines.. yet, it's a lurker. Very capable on the track.. yet refined.

The GT, Nismo, Cayman, etc.. just not the same.


Honestly, it's not "as if" we don't know how incredible this new //M is going to be.. for raw figures we already know what a tweaked 135i can do, etc. But what happens when you remove all that weight from up top, add a 4 inch wider track, put meaty tires on it (235/275's), more torque, more HP, more response, more efficiency and over-all lighter..?

Look, the general consensus was that the 135i suffered from understeer. Obviously some sway-bars cans bring that into many's comfort level. But imagine more refinement and tweaks..

M components and suspension tweaks will balance this car beautifully. But, imagine driving your One'r with fatter tires and LSD? That alone would REALLY add to the cars capabilities. And thats just the start...

[PrimoM3]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

The 135i is already a capable car... even with it's top-heavy stance, it does fairly well against thew Cayman S already.

The problem with Porsche's is that once you drive one, it's a drug. Their handling and feedback is legendary and really unexplainable unless you drive one. The Cayman S goes where you point it... no matter what.

That said, I opted out of buying one, because the other ancillary refinements were just not there. Same reason I got rid of my Z06..

On long drives (over 2 hours) you cannot stand to be in the car..

BMW are refined. The same way that a Porsche might hook you on it's handling, BMW hook you on refinement. NVH, balance, vision, etc.. Hard to put your finger on it, but it's there.




Secondly, this M1 is going to be a techno-monster. Carbon Fiber, bi-turbo, Valvetronic, etc.. the point is, that the M1 will be something that you can take on a date and azzholes next to you won't be revving their engines.. yet, it's a lurker. Very capable on the track.. yet refined.

The GT, Nismo, Cayman, etc.. just not the same.


Honestly, it's not "as if" we don't know how incredible this new //M is going to be.. for raw figures we already know what a tweaked 135i can do, etc. But what happens when you remove all that weight from up top, add a 4 inch wider track, put meaty tires on it (235/275's), more torque, more HP, more response, more efficiency and over-all lighter..?

Look, the general consensus was that the 135i suffered from understeer. Obviously some sway-bars cans bring that into many's comfort level. But imagine more refinement and tweaks..

M components and suspension tweaks will balance this car beautifully. But, imagine driving your One'r with fatter tires and LSD? That alone would REALLY add to the cars capabilities. And thats just the start...

Well said.

[moff]

Are we missing a few other competitors...

- New Audi S4 (Similar horses, 4 seats etc)
- Mitsubishi Evo FQ330 / FQ360

Also agree with the prime candidates:

- Audi TTRS
- Cayman S

I would be concerned that the pricing of the M1 may make the Cayman S look like the preferred choice (it would for me). But, if you need 4 seats it's a good choice, but does the S4 then provide a better alternative?

[HondaGoneRogue]

Originally Posted by jmunro

I think the difficulty with finding competition for the M1 is that the 1 series is pretty unique to begin with.

I think the M1 will be competition for the M3 itself. If M1 is produced as a true M car, it's only a matter of mild tweaking/tuning to bring it up to the M3 unless there is a huge gap in engine performance.

Agree 100%. And the fact that it is tuneable (since it's turbo) should put it over the M3. Most "purists" will still argue that it's not as great as the mighty M3, but that will only be opinion for once. The only thing we lacked so far is the weight and suspension. Oh yeah, and the M badge lol. Can't wait. I've already seen NUMEROUS posts from M3 owners that can't wait to make the switch.

[HondaGoneRogue]

Originally Posted by moff

Are we missing a few other competitors...

- New Audi S4 (Similar horses, 4 seats etc)
- Mitsubishi Evo FQ330 / FQ360

Also agree with the prime candidates:

- Audi TTRS
- Cayman S

I would be concerned that the pricing of the M1 may make the Cayman S look like the preferred choice (it would for me). But, if you need 4 seats it's a good choice, but does the S4 then provide a better alternative?

I wouldn't compare an M anything to an Audi S anything except the RS4. Not the S4. The evo barely edged out the stock 135i in comparisons (track wise only) so an M1 would probrably be a clear leader in that pack. And we aren't getting a TTRS are we?

Edit: Saw your in GB. Nevermind my whining about our car market. I accepted the fact we get the suck when we failed to recieve Civic type r's years ago.