M1 vs competition

[adc]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Ummm.....everyone who's ever tested the two?!

Stock:
http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Mustan...lip-19581.html
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...rformance.html
DR: http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Mustan...lip-10234.html

Stock: http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW-M3-Timeslip-17284.html
Modified: http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW-M3-Timeslip-19895.html
DR: http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW-M3-Timeslip-17264.html

I can only conclude that the M3 has the traction advantage off the line (which is understandable because of the better weight distribution, lower weight and better tires) but at the top end the Mustang holds its own. I suspect at speeds over 80-100 mph the Mustang would easily win.

So you really think a remapped stability control system and a slightly lower ride height is going to overcome the GT500 loosing 200lbs of weight in the nose?

A remapped suspension calibration, lower stiffer springs and wider tires will make a difference, yes. They are the changes BMW introduced to presumably fend off the new Audi RS5 - we can debate whether it will be sufficient or not for that purpose, but I am very sure these changes will reduce lap times.

And in the context of our conversation, I really think they will make at least as big of a change as dropping 200lbs from the GT500's nose.

I guess we'll have to wait and see, but again, you're talking about a car that for all practical puposes is $15-20k more expensive. Does it really make you feel special that your M3 is a couple of ticks faster around a track than a factory Mustang?

First of all, my M3 was not $15k more expensive - it ended up $50k plus taxes via Euro Delivery. It did indeed make me feel special driving it over some famous Alpine passes, the derestricted Autobahn, some amazing roads in Southern France/Spain and last but not least on the Nurburgring.

But no, I actually don't give rat's ass about the minute lap time difference. My own driving skills (or lack of) would prevent me from maximizing the car's potential well before those ticks would come into play.

So given all this and the M3's innate goodness, do you think I got a good deal overall, or do you think a GT500 would offer something extra to me?


I bought the M3 (over the 135i I initially was aiming for) because of how it feels and the experience it offers, both in my daily commute and when driven full on at the track. Despite it being a little over my initial budget, I bought it so I wouldn't have to sigh with regret every time I saw one on the street.

But I would trade it in a second for an M1, provided that it lives to the rumors that BMW is launching about it. It may well end up a dud, but it's unlikely given how capable the 135i it's based on already is. I think the M1 will be a firecracker of a car, small, light, nimble and fast enough to embarrass many other things on the road.

And if I'm wrong, then I'll keep my M3 thank you very much - scarcely any hardship in anybody's automotive book...

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by adc

Stock:
http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Mustan...lip-19581.html
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...rformance.html
DR: http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Mustan...lip-10234.html

Stock: http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW-M3-Timeslip-17284.html
Modified: http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW-M3-Timeslip-19895.html
DR: http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW-M3-Timeslip-17264.html

I can only conclude that the M3 has the traction advantage off the line (which is understandable because of the better weight distribution, lower weight and better tires) but at the top end the Mustang holds its own. I suspect at speeds over 80-100 mph the Mustang would easily win.

I can't believe you just posted links to dragtimes as evidence. Do you have ANY idea what lenghts Mustang owners will go to at a drag strip to turn good times, even on stock cars?

[adc]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

I can't believe you just posted links to dragtimes as evidence. Do you have ANY idea what lenghts Mustang owners will go to at a drag strip to turn good times, even on stock cars?

Laugh all you want, but the MotorTrend link specifies a very similar time. And I wasn't concerned with the time, because it's very launch-dependent (driver skill, tires, surface etc. all play important roles). I was more concerned with trap speed, which is a very good indication of the power output of the car - I thought you already knew this?

I've seen M3 times anywhere in the 112-116 mph range, stock. And for the GT500 115 was the lowest speed.


Anyway, as an example the current Mustang GT was 7 seconds slower around VIR than the very-understeery 135i. What makes you think it will be any different with the M1 vs. 2011 GT?

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201588

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by adc

Anyway, as an example the current Mustang GT was 7 seconds slower around VIR than the very-understeery 135i. What makes you think it will be any different with the M1 vs. 2011 GT?

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201588

No it wasn't. The 2010 GT ran a 3:13.3 compared to a 3:13.7 for the 135i, and that's the 300Hp version. The 2011 car is getting another 100Hp, revised gearing, and a 6-speed transmission.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features..._3a13.3_page_7

[adc]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

No it wasn't. The 2010 GT ran a 3:13.3 compared to a 3:13.7 for the 135i, and that's the 300Hp version. The 2011 car is getting another 100Hp, revised gearing, and a 6-speed transmission.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features..._3a13.3_page_7

That's cool, my mistake. So they're equal, with the GT on Pirelli PZero and the 135i on the stupid runflats. To understand how crippling the understeer on the 135i is, consider that the heavier 335i with the same engine was 3 seconds faster than both the GT and 135i.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...i_coupe_page_6

The M1 gets another 50HP/torque, revised gearing, different suspension, looses 200lbs, gets a limited slip, wider and much better tires and better brakes. Best of all, it will be underrated by BMW so cocky Mustang drivers will think they have a chance.

I'll lay down a case of beer it will be faster than the 2011 GT Track pack.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by adc

That's cool, my mistake. So they're equal, with the GT on Pirelli PZero and the 135i on the stupid runflats. To understand how crippling the understeer on the 135i is, consider that the heavier 335i with the same engine was 3 seconds faster than both the GT and 135i.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...i_coupe_page_6

The M1 gets another 50HP/torque, revised gearing, different suspension, looses 200lbs, gets a limited slip, wider and much better tires and better brakes. Best of all, it will be underrated by BMW so cocky Mustang drivers will think they have a chance.

I'll lay down a case of beer it will be faster than the 2011 GT Track pack.

I'll take that bet. I'll throw in a second case if the M1 weighs 200lbs less than a 135i. We'll be damn lucky if it doesn't GAIN weight, just as the M3 does over the 335i.

[adc]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

I'll take that bet. I'll throw in a second case if the M1 weighs 200lbs less than a 135i. We'll be damn lucky if it doesn't GAIN weight, just as the M3 does over the 335i.

I won't bet for the weight loss, but I think it's reasonable to assume it will loose weight.

It's very different for the M3 - let's see where that extra weight comes from:
- no sunroof on sedan, CF roof on coupe save at least 40lbs
- aluminum suspension parts weigh less - call it 10-20lbs
- wheel/tire combos weigh less - as much as 5-8lbs per corner

- brakes weigh perhaps a few pounds more, but not much more (bigger rotors, but with aluminum hats) - call it a draw with the wheels
- aluminum engine hood weighs 5-10lbs less
- beefier axles/spindles gain a few lbs

- plastic front fenders just like the 335 coupe
- similar 6sp transmission/driveshaft
- similar seats
- similar stock options
- similar exhaust size

So the engine has got to weigh significantly more to account for the difference. Then again, the 135i's engine weighs more or less the same as the M1 engine, so any weight loss measures should have the net effect of actually... loosing weight.

[BForbes]

There is no doubt in my mind the 'Stang will be competitive. Me being able to snag one for 28k with zero bull is nice too. Dont ask.

[esscolab]

Originally Posted by BForbes

There is no doubt in my mind the 'Stang will be competitive. Me being able to snag one for 28k with zero bull is nice too. Dont ask.

Come on guys, why are you always clinging onto the Mustang as a comparison? There really isn't one. Wake up and get a grip. I don't want to keep repeating myself but one is a finely tuned, up to date well handled car, the other is a Frankentein metamorphosis of a 70's V8 amorphous androgynous beast used in 30 year old movies.


Get a grip, leave the Mustang behind and bloody well move on!!!!

Muscle Cars from the 70's VS German engineered precision machine, let's just move on and stop clinging on to US nostalgia.

[cap_freez]

Originally Posted by esscolab

Come on guys, why are you always clinging onto the Mustang as a comparison? There really isn't one. Wake up and get a grip. I don't want to keep repeating myself but one is a finely tuned, up to date well handled car, the other is a Frankentein metamorphosis of a 70's V8 amorphous androgynous beast used in 30 year old movies.


Get a grip, leave the Mustang behind and bloody well move on!!!!

Muscle Cars from the 70's VS German engineered precision machine, let's just move on and stop clinging on to US nostalgia.

+ 1000 stop comparing peanut butter to caviar

[ChrisK]

I can't believe people are comparing a BMW to a FORD. FORD is making great strives, but c'mon.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by esscolab

Get a grip, leave the Mustang behind and bloody well move on!!!!

Muscle Cars from the 70's VS German engineered precision machine, let's just move on and stop clinging on to US nostalgia.

The last time I looked at the MY on this Mustang it says 2010. Wheres the 7 in that date? I dont see it. Secondly, the Mustang is not a Muscle car, it was never was designed to be. Its called a Pony car and the concept behind it was to make a fun and reasonably quick car for the hip younggins to cruise around in. Stop calling the Mustang a Muscle Car

Again, I dont see why they cant be compared. I damn well compared an 08 Mustang to the 135i, I spent a couple of weeks making the final descision. They are both 300HP RWD 2+2 sport coupes in the 30Ks. You guys are saying that it isnt refined enough, and that it isnt as plush as the BMW. People say the same thing about the R35 and the ZR1. But both of those cars beat cars that are 2 and 3 times their price, albiet at the expense of refinement and interior accomodations.
The point is that price point and refinement doesnt mean that somebody looking for performance wont consider both.

One more thing...the Muscle car era was the 60s. At least know your history if you are going to use it as a basis for an argument.

Originally Posted by rockrboy

+ 1000 stop comparing peanut butter to caviar

Ive had caviar at a $200 a head french restaurant in the city and I prefer my creamy skippy any day of the week.

[Timberwolf]

I currently have a 2010 135i, and an 07 GT500. (I used to be a BMW snob)
Have owned 2 Z06s too. Great great cars.
Let me just say that the GT500 was really a shell when I got it. It handled like a 80s pickup truck and really wasn't that fast in a straight line.


I would think that an E90/2 would have no issues on a road course, and depending on driver and engine tolerances, as quick or quicker in a straight line.

HOWEVER:
The stock engine on the GT500 is tremendous. I mean 800 to the wheels on stock internals, stock clutch and entire drivetrain. Even after a dozen passes at the strip my buddy has no issues.
Yes yes its a heavy pig, but when you have 750 to the wheels on pump gas and solid handling, you feel pretty invincible.

Even with a pulley intake and software I walked a GTR! That was 1800 in mods! woooo! (videos in my sig)

My conclusion is if you are a true enthusiast, you'll learn to appreciate more than just one mark. I've tried many and love appreciating different ways of achieving the same thing..

I think the M1 will face the following cars:

Audi S4 - Its very underrated and faster than the outgoing RS4
Corvette - lightweight, awesome handling, killer power
Porsche - Cayman S, bet handling car on earth pound for pound
Camaro Z28 - If they make it, it will be lights out
Mustang GT - 400+hp, and it WILL handle this time
Audi TTRS - Expensive.. But should be up there
Nissan 370z - still a great handler even though its' somewhat low on power
Evo - Easier to pull fast laps in
Mercedes C63 - Not really a handler, and more$ but gobs of straight-line power
GTR ok much more $, but by the time the M1 is out a clean used GTR will cost the same. This will kill all if tuned right
I could be missing others, but this is a decent cross section

[bmwzone]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

I can't believe people are comparing a BMW to a FORD. FORD is making great strives, but c'mon.

Sorry you just did too.

[bmwzone]

I can already see the excuses coming when the 55k M1 loses to the 29k 5.0 GT.

It's too heavy.
My HPFP failed.
The GT was an auto we all know autos are faster.
Ford cheated with the 3.73 rear axle.
The M1 had a fake eLSD not fair.
Sync weighs less than iDrive.
The road was smooth and flat not exploiting the GT's live rear axle. We need to take this off-road.

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by Timberwolf

My conclusion is if you are a true enthusiast, you'll learn to appreciate more than just one mark. I've tried many and love appreciating different ways of achieving the same thing..

Thank you! I don't know how many times I've said that before. True enthusiasts typically appreciate any car that is built with performance intentions in mind. This doesn't mean that you can't have preferences or favorites; at least give respect where respect is due.

[oztiks]

Originally Posted by bmwzone

BForbes. The "M" should be "attainable" ? So Porsche should have a 25k 1-Porsche? Come on man. This is grasping.

I believe the opposite is true - the M1 is going to be 50k +- 5-10k depending on equipment. Good luck selling more than 2,000 units. But cool if they want to. I'll enjoy dusting them in my $350 buck per month 5.0 mustang.

350.00 a month? Where do you live? Dusting them? Counting chickens before eggs hatch? Mustangs sound great that is a given but the rest ...mustang is a mustang is a mustang..they all look alike. If the M1/1M is anywhere close to 50k in Canada I will buy 2 of em...the prices here are extremely high. What you get here for 350.00 a month is cable.

[bmwzone]

Originally Posted by oztiks

350.00 a month? Where do you live? Dusting them? Counting chickens before eggs hatch? Mustangs sound great that is a given but the rest ...mustang is a mustang is a mustang..they all look alike. If the M1/1M is anywhere close to 50k in Canada I will buy 2 of em...the prices here are extremely high. What you get here for 350.00 a month is cable.

God Bless America!

[oztiks]

Than again we got free health care.

[adc]

Originally Posted by bmwzone

I can already see the excuses coming when the 55k M1 loses to the 29k 5.0 GT.

It's too heavy.
My HPFP failed.
The GT was an auto we all know autos are faster.
Ford cheated with the 3.73 rear axle.
The M1 had a fake eLSD not fair.
Sync weighs less than iDrive.
The road was smooth and flat not exploiting the GT's live rear axle. We need to take this off-road.

Please count me out of your fantasy. It's getting worse every day...

[bmwzone]

Originally Posted by adc

Please count me out of your fantasy. It's getting worse every day...

Good point, the mustang is real, the 1m isn't which is best for all.

[adc]

Originally Posted by bmwzone

Good point, the mustang is real, the 1m isn't which is best for all.

So shouldn't we be loosing you to the Mustang board?

I mean it's faster than your 135i, cheaper, handles better, sounds better - heck, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from buying one and crushing everything else on the road.

I just don't understand what value you see spending time on a BMW forum.