Anyone had their HPFP replaced twice?

[Hans Delbruck]

Sounds like the pump is a band-aid for a much bigger problem that would be more expensive to repair... what do you guys think?

If fuel pump issues ruin my Euro Delivery vacation it is highly likely I will never buy another BMW.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck

Sounds like the pump is a band-aid for a much bigger problem that would be more expensive to repair... what do you guys think?

If fuel pump issues ruin my Euro Delivery vacation it is highly likely I will never buy another BMW.

That's the conclusion I've come to. I think the problem is with the block where the pump mounts, or something internal is out of spec. That's the only thing that could explain why some cars have multiple, frequent failures, and other cars are fine.

It's been suggested that the seals are failing due to ethonal content, but that just doesn't fit the failure pattern we're seeing.

I'm beginning to think we need to start a grassroots effort to force BMW into dealing with this, instead of the BS that's been going on for the last 3 years. There's no excuse for having to worry about taking a road trip in a car that's less than a year old (not to mention the $40k pricetag). The failure rate on these things is just absurd.

[Robert]

Could there be some plumbing issues like cogs for example that wears out the pump over time because it has to work overtime?

I am getting really sick of visiting my dealer, who are great. Let's get the grassroot movement started. More than willing to spend some time to setup the service to collect signatures online, as long as someone drafts up the original petition.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by ichiban

yea, bmw doesn't want to do the recall.

The problem is greater than that. They CAN'T do a recall because apparently they don't know what's wrong. The "new" pumps are failing too.
As I've said before those who have had a failure are much more likely to have another pump fail, than for another 135 to have it's first.

Another part of the problem is that it doesn't appear to be in any ordered manner of failure, such as, from this date to that date. It appears much more random than that, so it's even harder to find what's causing this to happen.
BMW needs to take back the cars that have had more than 2 failures and take the engines apart and compare it to a TT engine that has a lot of miles and no pump failure.
Then maybe they'll get a handle on this. Of course, I'm expecting that they ARE doing this as we rant, I think, I expect, I hope, I'm delusional.

I'm on the same thinking as Jeremy, as I think that this could be related to what drives the pump or regulates the pressure, or a combination.
The pump is driven off one of the cams I believe, just like Audi does. If that cam is out of spec, it could be forcing the pump to go beyond it's intended path limit, thus driving it harder and out of it's spec and eventually giving up the ghost. But, at the same time I have to believe that BMW has measured these things to figure out if that is it.

If it's related to the exteme high pressure that these pumps produce, the regulation of this pressure could be out of whack and the pressure keeps building higher than intended, which could be causing a high back pressure backing back towards the pump the wrong way, and the pump fighting hard to keep moving, kind of like a hydrolock condition, and eventually failure.
This could be the reason for the long crank times that is a tell tale sign of pending failure, meaning the pressure regulation has gotten so bad that enough fuel isn't reaching into the combustion chamber resulting in long cranks. The long crank could be indicative of pressure regulation issues leading to pump failure, or it could be the result of a failed pump not being able to produce pressure anymore. In this scenario it's the question of the chicken or the egg.
Perhaps of one of you guys with long cranks could ask your tech measure the pressure once you get a new pump installed, and then have it measured again after a couple thousand miles, it may show increasing pressure in the sytem over time, or decreasing pressure over time.
It could help better understand what's happening.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by RPM90

The problem is greater than that. They CAN'T do a recall because apparently they don't know what's wrong. The "new" pumps are failing too.

This has been going on for over three years. They HAVE to know what the root cause is at this point, and I'm of the opinion that it's cheaper for them to replace the pumps over and over again instead of fixing it right.

The problem is, once these cars have 100k miles on them, we're all going to be stuck replacing the pumps ourselves every time they fail, and the bigger problem IMO is the effect of all this on resale value. People are going to avoid these things like the plague on the used car lots, and that's BMW takng money directly out of our pockets because of their screw up.

I'm honestly starting to think something like a class action lawsuit is in order, because they've proven that they don't care enough about losing customers to step up and correct this. The fact that they extended the warranty is nice, but it isn't doing anything at all to help with the long term reliability problems we KNOW we're going to have, and the horrible resale value that goes with it.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

This has been going on for over three years. They HAVE to know what the root cause is at this point, and I'm of the opinion that it's cheaper for them to replace the pumps over and over again instead of fixing it right.

The problem is, once these cars have 100k miles on them, we're all going to be stuck replacing the pumps ourselves every time they fail, and the bigger problem IMO is the effect of all this on resale value. People are going to avoid these things like the plague on the used car lots, and that's BMW takng money directly out of our pockets because of their screw up.

I'm honestly starting to think something like a class action lawsuit is in order, because they've proven that they don't care enough about losing customers to step up and correct this. The fact that they extended the warranty is nice, but it isn't doing anything at all to help with the long term reliability problems we KNOW we're going to have, and the horrible resale value that goes with it.

It's certainly a plausible scenario. But still, this problem won't just take money out of individuals pockets, it will take money out of BMW's pockets. They have to be concerned about the used car buyers perception of the turbo engined cars as they come back from leasing with only 24 to 45k miles on them. If the public perception is that these cars can't be trusted it will seriously effect BMW's bottom line with low mileage cars that they can't move as quickly. BMW sales in the US are about 50% lease, that's a BIG number of potential loss. And, the cars in question are BMW's bread and butter 3 series, with the 1 gaining ground, not to mention the overall perception of bad quality for all their cars.

For BMW the bigger motivator is not the individual losses, but the larger corporate loss than can ensue, which is why I believe BMW is working on this.
However, that's just my opinion, your take on it could be the reality too.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by RPM90

It's certainly a plausible scenario. But still, this problem won't just take money out of individuals pockets, it will take money out of BMW's pockets. They have to be concerned about the used car buyers perception of the turbo engined cars as they come back from leasing with only 24 to 45k miles on them. If the public perception is that these cars can't be trusted it will seriously effect BMW's bottom line with low mileage cars that they can't move as quickly. BMW sales in the US are about 50% lease, that's a BIG number of potential loss. And, the cars in question are BMW's bread and butter 3 series, with the 1 gaining ground, not to mention the overall perception of bad quality for all their cars.

For BMW the bigger motivator is not the individual losses, but the larger corporate loss than can ensue, which is why I believe BMW is working on this.
However, that's just my opinion, your take on it could be the reality too.

There's no doubt about it that it's hurting sales of the N54 power cars, at least in the enthusiast market where the buyers are pretty well informed. That's another reason it's so shocking to me that they're handling it the way they are. The number of cars out there with multiple (even 3 or more) failures is just shocking!

[Robert]

Well if you look at e46 m3's engine trouble you will get a sense on how fast they acted on a major problem. The first E46M3 debuted 2001? and the issue was not fully addressed until 2004.5? A full 3-4 years before the engine blow up issue was fixed.

Let me know what you guys can speculate on my anecdotal experience:
What I have noticed is the long crank tends to come right after a long drive. (greater than 50miles trip) This is my weekend car so weekdays I may drive 5-10 miles to the gym and the car starts up fine. But recently, I have experienced the long crank morning after a long drive up to LA or down to SD. Subsequent startup after the initial long crank are fine as well. Has something to do with the combination of a long drive and letting it rest overnight.

[Yes2m3cs]

Well don't assume that the long cranks are going to happen. When I was on my original pump the long cranks happened for many months before the pump failed. Now with the 1st updated pump, it started perfect and then just failed the other day out of nowhere.

Im on my 2nd part #881 pump as of yesterday so lets see how it goes. I actually got about 9k miles out of my 1st updated unit.

I love this car but thank god I only leased it!

Brian

[oasis3582]

I wish there was some definitive source/poll to know exactly what % of people are having pump failures on the 135.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by oasis3582

I wish there was some definitive source/poll to know exactly what % of people are having pump failures on the 135.

Same here, but it's nearly impossible to do. The only way to get a percentage is for people who haven't had a failure to vote, and their could fail next week, which throws everything off.

[isitspringyet]

OK, I looked back at the timing on my HPFP issues. The initial failure was at 4,100 miles, and was a complete failure, no limp mode. The second, reman pump failed after another 7,600 miles, and had long cranks for a few weeks before throwing a code. The third pump was a new 881, and lasted 15,300 miles. It started having long cranks more than 2,000 miles before final failure. They replaced the low pressure fuel sensor when I took it in initially (2,000 miles before DOA), and showed faults 2AAF, 29F3, and 2A2D. When I received my newest 881, the faults were 29DC, 29F2, and 2FBF.

It would have long cranks every morning, but after that it ran well, up until the last week, when I would go into limp mode if I pushed it. There really weren't any big problems after it would crank, up until it started limp mode for the last week. I then had to be a bit careful when pulling out in traffic. I will say that when I got my car back this time, it felt stronger than it had in a while, but the disclaimer is that I had just finished a trip to St. Louis driving my Dad's minivan!

I would have to agree that BMW has to be working to find the root cause and correct it. But I also agree that they had better get their act together and come up with a correction that lasts.

[aleal86]

i bought my 135 in december 2008. in febuary i drove a long trip! from new york to new hampshire about 550 miles each way so i put 3,000 miles on it by the second month. Thankfully until now (knock on wood) i haven't had any fuel pump issues and im over 10,000 miles. it is weird that some get the issue and others don't. hopefully it doesn't happen to me, but i dont have a good feeling.....but if it does i will definitly go to dealer and cause hell.... a 40,000 car doesnt deserve to get this issue, and since it does have it, a company like BMW should identify the problem and get it fixed and stop f**king around extending warranty. They should fix it completly or recall the problem because the only thing this issue is going to do is give our cars a bad rep. and make BMW look even worse.......

[jeremyc74]

I've penned a short letter to BMW to make them aware of our concerns.

Feel free to make corrections, additions, and suggestions.



Dear BMW Management knuckleheads,

As educated, experienced, and dedicated automotive enthusiasts who love to drive, we buy BMWs, and we do so with high expectations. We pay a premium for the engineering and attention to detail that creates the “Ultimate Driving Machine”, and recently we have been let down. The continuing problems with the high pressure fuel system on the N54 engines has reached epidemic levels, with owners of cars less than two years old having had as many as three replacement pumps installed, and countless hours of their time wasted. The problem has existed since the introduction of the engine over three years ago, and we feel that we’ve been extremely patient in waiting for a real solution, which hasn’t come. The pump failures continue even on the most recent model year, and the replacement pumps aren’t lasting any longer than the originals in many cases.

Because of the likelihood of failure and the lack of a proactive approach on BMW’s part, we have new cars we’re afraid to drive on long distance trips for fear of being stranded on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere. Even when the obvious symptoms start to appear our dealerships are reluctant to repair the vehicles even though everyone involved knows it is about to experiencing a failure, which leaves us no choice but to drive the vehicle until it dies, then call for a truck to pick it up. The extended warranty was a nice gesture, but at the end of the day we’re all driving a car with a major and well known engineering issue that we will eventually be responsible for repairing and a vehicle that can’t be depended upon.

The effects of this issue on resale value are already apparent, and there’s no doubt it’s affecting new vehicle sales as well. The horrible reliability we’re experiencing with this engine is unacceptable from “The Ultimate Driving Machine”, as is your handling of the issue. If no solution for this problem is found, make no mistake that the financial cost to you will be much higher than it already is, with the loss of loyal customers and drastically reduced residual values on lease returns as we become more and more vocal about the issue. In spite of the problems, we still enjoy our vehicles very much and only want them to be as reliable and enjoyable as we’ve come to expect a BMW to be. Loyalty has it’s limits though, and continuing down your current path of replacing pumps until the warranty expires makes pursuing legal actions such as lemon laws or a class action lawsuit a much more attractive option with every passing month.

In short, if you continue with the dry boning you’ve been giving us so far, we’re going to raise so much hell about this mess that even the pretentious, stuck up CPA bitch that lives down the street from me won’t consider buying a 328 because she’s afraid the wheels will fall off after 10k miles, and everyone’s going to know you’ve all given your wives syphilis after a weekend in Amsterdam romping with low class street whores. Please reconsider your position on the issue, as we’d rather not get nasty about the whole thing.


Sincerely,

Pissed off N54 owners.

[isitspringyet]

The last paragraph is a keeper!!!

[oasis3582]

Has anyone called BMW Corporate to voice their complaints?

[Robert]

Jeremy, that is well written and funny.

[CrazyIvan]

It is a dissappointment that BMW doesnt seem to take this problem seriously. I'm at 7500 miles, but I already had a few long cranks. By the way, what do you guys consider a long crank? Mine are like 2-3 seconds as opposed to starting right up. But so far, so good "knock on wood"

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

I've penned a short letter to BMW to make them aware of our concerns.

Feel free to make corrections, additions, and suggestions.



Dear BMW Management knuckleheads,

As educated, experienced, and dedicated automotive enthusiasts who love to drive, we buy BMWs, and we do so with high expectations. We pay a premium for the engineering and attention to detail that creates the “Ultimate Driving Machine”, and recently we have been let down. The continuing problems with the high pressure fuel system on the N54 engines has reached epidemic levels, with owners of cars less than two years old having had as many as three replacement pumps installed, and countless hours of their time wasted. The problem has existed since the introduction of the engine over three years ago, and we feel that we’ve been extremely patient in waiting for a real solution, which hasn’t come. The pump failures continue even on the most recent model year, and the replacement pumps aren’t lasting any longer than the originals in many cases.

Because of the likelihood of failure and the lack of a proactive approach on BMW’s part, we have new cars we’re afraid to drive on long distance trips for fear of being stranded on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere. Even when the obvious symptoms start to appear our dealerships are reluctant to repair the vehicles even though everyone involved knows it is about to experiencing a failure, which leaves us no choice but to drive the vehicle until it dies, then call for a truck to pick it up. The extended warranty was a nice gesture, but at the end of the day we’re all driving a car with a major and well known engineering issue that we will eventually be responsible for repairing and a vehicle that can’t be depended upon.

The effects of this issue on resale value are already apparent, and there’s no doubt it’s affecting new vehicle sales as well. The horrible reliability we’re experiencing with this engine is unacceptable from “The Ultimate Driving Machine”, as is your handling of the issue. If no solution for this problem is found, make no mistake that the financial cost to you will be much higher than it already is, with the loss of loyal customers and drastically reduced residual values on lease returns as we become more and more vocal about the issue. In spite of the problems, we still enjoy our vehicles very much and only want them to be as reliable and enjoyable as we’ve come to expect a BMW to be. Loyalty has it’s limits though, and continuing down your current path of replacing pumps until the warranty expires makes pursuing legal actions such as lemon laws or a class action lawsuit a much more attractive option with every passing month.

In short, if you continue with the dry boning you’ve been giving us so far, we’re going to raise so much hell about this mess that even the pretentious, stuck up CPA bitch that lives down the street from me won’t consider buying a 328 because she’s afraid the wheels will fall off after 10k miles, and everyone’s going to know you’ve all given your wives syphilis after a weekend in Amsterdam romping with low class street whores. Please reconsider your position on the issue, as we’d rather not get nasty about the whole thing.


Sincerely,

Pissed off N54 owners.

"Knuckleheads" is funny as is the last paragraph, but I think you've done well with everything except for the knuckleheads and the last paragraph.
I'd leave those off, as the rest of your letter is coherent and professional with very solid points.

I'll sign.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by oasis3582

Has anyone called BMW Corporate to voice their complaints?

They DO monitor these forums, and they know.
Yes, people have personally made calls to corporate and they are aware of the issue, as evidenced by the extended warranty and continual number changing of the pump number.

The problem is, it appears the pump is the final symptom where the actual underlying cause has not been found, unless BMW is simply renumbering the SAME pump and trying to pass it off as new. Still, that can't explain why it's more likely someone will have more than 1 failure before someone will get an initial failure. Again, it points to something else causing the problem, and the pump failure is just the worst symptom of a greater disease.

[emtrey]

is this issue as prevalant in the 3/5 series twin turbo cars as it appears in the 135?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by emtrey

is this issue as prevalant in the 3/5 series twin turbo cars as it appears in the 135?

Yeah. It's all the N54 powered cars.