HELP! i only have 89 octane here.

[ducati]

Before you start on this path, call BMW. As I pointed out above, they sometimes have low-octane maps that can be loaded. They're selling them in Ecuador, right? They know the fuel quality.

[midlife]

Originally Posted by ducati

Before you start on this path, call BMW. As I pointed out above, they sometimes have low-octane maps that can be loaded. They're selling them in Ecuador, right? They know the fuel quality.

a genuine thank you for your concern.
i saw your post and planned to inquire at BMW here to see what they say. it would not surprise me if they do not know much (one of the minuses of living in s. america), if they do not, i plan on trying to find out soemthing at BMW europe.

if anyone out there knows who or where to call (or email) for technical questions at BMW in germany, please let me know.

if there is indeed an 89 octane map in my car, i was thinking of getting the V1.47 proceed (possibly with lower boost high altitude map) which should be able to adjust for the higher octane i want to make.

i think the lowest octane i heard with these ECU mods was 91 octane.

thanks again.

BTW, my car is arriving EARLY !
i will have it in only 20 days!!.... i am dying here

[mikeo]

I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to buy a Procede until you have thouroghly tested the stock ECU map with your 89 octane fuel.

[midlife]

Originally Posted by mikeo

I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to buy a Procede until you have thouroghly tested the stock ECU map with your 89 octane fuel.

hi mikeo, thanks for chiming in.

1/ i know you live at altitude also. i do not quite unerstand your statement. can u explain a bit?

2/ BTW, my car should be broken in within 2 months or so. by then, i hope to have the possibility of boosting my gas already decided / taken care of.

so i basically have at least a few months before i pull the trigger on any engine mods.

thanks

[mikeo]

Sorry I'm not being more clear. I'm suggesting that you not be the 'point of the spear' in this enterprise. Let others break new ground on modding / mixing their own fuel.

[midlife]

Originally Posted by mikeo

Sorry I'm not being more clear. I'm suggesting that you not be the 'point of the spear' in this enterprise. Let others break new ground on modding / mixing their own fuel.

sorry, i did miss the subtlety in your first message.
i can be "aggressive" when i tackle something, but i am always cautious.

trust me, with the "BMW" money i spent for my 335, i will be very careful, and will only make well calculated risks.

i do not have the money (well, maybe i do but my wife would KILL me) to make a large mistake.

i am a noobie, but i will do my research, ask (probably too many) questions, and will do a last check with a few of u guys before i do anything even approaching risky.

thanks for your concern.
best, midlife

p.s. i found the "mixing formula" for toluene into 89 octane gas, but i am finding out if the 89 octane here is RON or MON. this seems to make a big difference. i will then post my conclusion re this issue.

[321]

Originally Posted by midlife

i do not think american vendors are going to jump to send me stuff in quito, ecuador.

If you order it in bulk they will(which i would suggest anyway).

can u recommend a website or two where i can get this stuff?

From lucas' site...
"Lucas Oil Products are available at AutoZone, Advance Auto, CARQUEST, CSK Auto: Checker, Schuck's, and Kragen, Murray's, NAPA, O'Reilly Auto Parts, Pep Boys Auto nationwide."

if i mix approx 2 gallons of tolunene with approx 13 gallons of gas, how much of theis lucas UCL should i use?

~5oz.
Start out with 1 gallon of toluene first and work your way up.
UCL is safe to use on every tank and your car will thank you.

BTW, my car is arriving EARLY !

You haven't even driven your car yet and you are worried that it won't perform??

Small suggestion/request...

Get UOA's (used oil analysis) every few thousand miles to see if anything is out of the norm. Also do compression tests every oil change and post 'em up for us!

Once again i will reiterate that i do not recommend this and am not responsible if your car blows up! (it will be fine:wink

[321]

Originally Posted by midlife

but i am finding out if the 89 octane here is RON or MON. this seems to make a big difference.

I was going to ask about that... but i thought you knew..:iono:

[ducati]

Originally Posted by midlife

i am a noobie, but i will do my research, ask (probably too many) questions, and will do a last check with a few of u guys before i do anything even approaching risky.

With all due respect; trying to tune a turbocharged engine on 89 fuel is the definition of risky.

Unless you ask your tuner to tune the power down. I am not sure what is possible with the BMW ECU; does it use the encoded motronic system, like VAG?

With a Scooby, this would be quite easy to do with a laptop. With a VAG product, not so much... Although it's possible a tuner would do it for a fee.

[ducati]

Originally Posted by zba857

I was going to ask about that... but i thought you knew..:iono:

Can you imagine the horror of 89 RON?

[321]

Originally Posted by ducati

Can you imagine the horror of 89 RON?

I am definitely going to hold this guy to keeping us updated! (popcorn smiliey):biggrin:

[ducati]

Originally Posted by zba857

I am definitely going to hold this guy to keeping us updated! (popcorn smiliey):biggrin:

I think you mean "listen to the popcorn in the engine bay..."

[321]

Originally Posted by ducati

I think you mean "listen to the popcorn in the engine bay..."

The N54 will adapt!

It always has!

[grant]

Originally Posted by Nixon

Do they have E85 in Ecuador? I live in Denver CO, at 5000+ feet and I drive the mountains at 7000+ feet regularly. I mix in E85 with every tank and I can really feel the extra octane in my chipped turbo Audi A4.

It's true that you can increase octane with Ethanol, but Ethanol yields less energy (horsepower) than gasoline. I recommend race fuel instead. In Denver, you can buy race gas (several grades starting at 100 Octane) at Duggan Petroleum on the frontage road just west of Santa Fe Dr. just North of Belleview

[Nixon]

Originally Posted by midlife

my owner's manual says specifically (pg 117) "do not use E85 (fuel with 85% ethanol) or flex fuel......fuel supply system will be damaged.

i have an advance copy of my owner's manual (my European 335 i get in 6 weeks). what does your american manual say re fuel? is it on pg 117?

BTW, my manual also says MINIMUM 95 RON octane, 98 preferred, wierd eh?

Yes, you should never run straight E85 in any car not specifically designed to run on pure E85. Your 335i should never be run on straight E85. The fuel system cannot keep up with the increased fuel demand, especially under high performance driving. Your fuel system may have to briefly run as much as 25-40% more volume with pure E85 under worst case at full throttle at high RPM. The stoich falls off on a slope as you add more Ethanol to gas, and fuel volumes go up as stoich drops. I wouldn't suggest ever running straight E85. That is much too strong of an ethanol mix for a 335i.

US/Canadian spec 335i's are mandated by gov't regulation to run on E10 (10% ethanol). Your European 335i could have different fuel system components which would not hold up running E10. I doubt it. I would guess that the European 335i fuel system is exactly the same as the US system. E10 is perfectly safe for US model 335i's. E20 is not that far from E10. I would not expect fuel system damage from E20, but there isn't anyone anywhere who can give you a 100% certain answer. Just like you will never find anyone who will give you a 100% certain answer on toulene. BMW just hasn't done the sort of testing with either of these fuel mixes that would allow anyone to give a 100% certain authoritative answer.

You are sort of stuck in a pickle.

1) Your manual says you need higher octane.
2) There isn't anything in your manual that says whether or not you can run a 15% toulene mix (T15), and BMW will never officially support that.
3) There isn't anything in your manual that says whether or not you can run E20 instead of E10, and BMW will never officially support that either.

The main benefit of using E85 as an octane booster instead of toulene is that E85 has all the lubrication, anti-corrosion, and other additives that gov't regulations require for motor vehicle fuels.

Given the choice between running T15 with an unknown purity of Toulene home mixed with fuel additives, and E20 mixed with motor vehicle grade E85 with a full fuel additive package already in it, I would choose E20.

[midlife]

Originally Posted by ducati

With all due respect; trying to tune a turbocharged engine on 89 fuel is the definition of risky.

Unless you ask your tuner to tune the power down. I am not sure what is possible with the BMW ECU; does it use the encoded motronic system, like VAG?

With a Scooby, this would be quite easy to do with a laptop. With a VAG product, not so much... Although it's possible a tuner would do it for a fee.

until i ordered my 335, i did not know that much about high altitude, and how the 89 octane here could affect my motor and turbos.

i have been waiting for this car almost 3 months now and have up to this point learned quite a bit.

thee are only 2 BMW dealers in all ecuador and they are both controlled by the same company who has been here for many years (they also own the only porsche dealereship)....so i am reasonably sure the car will not blow up (not immediately anyway).

as a member posted above, maybe BMW germany loaded a 89 octane map into my car, or bmw is just counting on the ecu to adjust to the 89 octane (just as the ECU can normally adjust to increased elevation).

i did not know or thought about any of this stuff that much when i ordered the car. but if i leave the car perfectly stock, and do not boost the gasoline octane - and the car still blows up, i pray it will be within the 2 year warantee i get here (note porshce in ecuador gives only ONE year warantee).

regardless, that is why i think an upgrqaded intercooler would be a first mod. M&M over at bimmerfest reported much better performance at 4,500 altitude AFTER his shelby spearco IC upgrade.

a bit more air, less pressure loss, a bit cooler air. all this equals closer to sea level conditions (even though i am at 7,000').

more / better (cooler) air means more gasoline, means more advanced timing, = more HP right? hopefully i am on the right track here. please correct me if i am wrong.

thanks

EDIT: i just noticed that you said TUNING a turbo car with 89 octane is risky.
i originally thought u said BUYING a turbo car with 89 octane is risky. (that explains my above "story". anyway, now u know how i got to where i am regarding buying the car, and now thinking about mods.

my first project is boosting the gas safely to 93 or 95 U.S. octane. if i can do that, i believe that then i will have the ability and option of spending too much time, and probably too much money modding my car (just like some of you guys). he he

[midlife]

Originally Posted by ducati

Can you imagine the horror of 89 RON?

please, do not even say that....
hopefully, i will have confirmation soon that the 89 octane here is MON.

again, i say hopefully.

[midlife]

Originally Posted by grant

It's true that you can increase octane with Ethanol, but Ethanol yields less energy (horsepower) than gasoline. I recommend race fuel instead. In Denver, you can buy race gas (several grades starting at 100 Octane) at Duggan Petroleum on the frontage road just west of Santa Fe Dr. just North of Belleview

i am starting to look into racing fuel here.
i know they have it, but i do not know the quality unless i have it anyalized. then there is the cost which i need to find out.

i have a friend who is a chemist here, i HOPE he knows how to anyalize gas, and knows what to look for.

[midlife]

Originally Posted by Nixon

Yes, you should never run straight E85 in any car not specifically designed to run on pure E85. Your 335i should never be run on straight E85. The fuel system cannot keep up with the increased fuel demand, especially under high performance driving. Your fuel system may have to briefly run as much as 25-40% more volume with pure E85 under worst case at full throttle at high RPM. The stoic falls off on a slope as you add more Ethanol to gas, and fuel volumes go up as stoic drops. I wouldn't suggest ever running straight E85. That is much too strong of an ethanol mix for a 335i.

US/Canadian spec 335i's are mandated by gov't regulation to run on E10 (10% ethanol). Your European 335i could have different fuel system components which would not hold up running E10. I doubt it. I would guess that the European 335i fuel system is exactly the same as the US system. E10 is perfectly safe for US model 335i's. E20 is not that far from E10. I would not expect fuel system damage from E20, but there isn't anyone anywhere who can give you a 100% certain answer. Just like you will never find anyone who will give you a 100% certain answer on toulene. BMW just hasn't done the sort of testing with either of these fuel mixes that would allow anyone to give a 100% certain authoritative answer.

You are sort of stuck in a pickle.

1) Your manual says you need higher octane.
2) There isn't anything in your manual that says whether or not you can run a 15% toulene mix (T15), and BMW will never officially support that.
3) There isn't anything in your manual that says whether or not you can run E20 instead of E10, and BMW will never officially support that either.

The main benefit of using E85 as an octane booster instead of toulene is that E85 has all the lubrication, anti-corrosion, and other additives that gov't regulations require for motor vehicle fuels.

Given the choice between running T15 with an unknown purity of Toulene home mixed with fuel additives, and E20 mixed with motor vehicle grade E85 with a full fuel additive package already in it, I would choose E20.

i do not know if they have e20 here. just ANOTHER thing i have to investigate. it seems u gave me alot of good info, i will sort out the few things i have going re boosting octane and may follow up with a few fuel related questions for u and the other guys here.

thanks to everyone here so far that are "looking out for me".:w00t: (maybe u guys are just following me a bit to see when and how i blow up my n54 (kidding).

[321]

Originally Posted by midlife

(maybe u guys are just following me a bit to see when and how i blow up my n54 (kidding).

of course we r'nt (heh):wink:

Originally Posted by grant

It's true that you can increase octane with Ethanol, but Ethanol yields less energy (horsepower) than gasoline. I recommend race fuel instead. In Denver, you can buy race gas (several grades starting at 100 Octane) at Duggan Petroleum on the frontage road just west of Santa Fe Dr. just North of Belleview

This isn't entirely valid.
The reason that flexfuel vehicles consume 34% more ethanol than gasoline is because the motors aren't tuned for the higher octane that ethanol provides. If they were they wouldn't be able to run off normal pump gas. In fact ethanol has a higher octane thus it yields less energy, that is why a gasoline engine needs more ethanol to produce the same amount of power. This is synonymous with any higher octane fuels and is the sole reason why they can withstand more compression/boost. So your recommendation for race gas is moot. To optimize the stock motor he needs pump gas levels of octane. :headbang:

[Nixon]

WARNING! THREAD HIJACK!

Originally Posted by grant

It's true that you can increase octane with Ethanol, but Ethanol yields less energy (horsepower) than gasoline. I recommend race fuel instead. In Denver, you can buy race gas (several grades starting at 100 Octane) at Duggan Petroleum on the frontage road just west of Santa Fe Dr. just North of Belleview

4 gallons of e85 @ 2.10/gallon + 12 gallons of Premium 91 octane @ 3.00/gallon = $44.40 for an approx. 95 octane mix. Since I don't have a race gas map in my chip, I don't feel any difference between 95 octane and 100 octane. Paying more than double the price doesn't give me any gains. But even my wife can feel the difference between straight 91 octane and the ~95 octane mix, so paying $3.60 less per tank than straight 91 octane is definitely worth it for my car.

But there is a major flaw in your statement "Ethanol yields less energy (horsepower) than gasoline."

Ethanol yields less BTU's of energy PER VOLUME than pump gasoline. That is not the same as less peak horsepower from your engine. Engine design and fuel management have more to do with horsepower than BTU's of energy. Especially in turbo engines. For example, Koenigsegg takes their 800 hp V8 engine and makes the same engine into a 1000+ horsepower car when it is run on E85.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/03...ered-supercar/

There are plenty of examples out there from Saab to Dodge of much higher peak horsepower out of E85 compared with gas using the same engines.

My ECU simply increases the fuel flow to increase volume to attain the boost targets to make up for the lower BTU's per volume of ethanol. As long as I stay within the flow rate capacity of my fuel system, I can generate around the same horsepower with an ethanol mix as I can generate with 100% gas of the same octane. I simply have to flow more fuel. Since my fuel system is up to pumping the extra fuel, The limiting factor for horsepower in my car is how much boost I can produce before it pings. Octane is what determines the boost limit, not BTU's per volume.

So in my car the only down side to the lower BTU's per volume of Ethanol is that I'm flowing more fuel. About 5% more on average. This is reflected in my gas mileage going down about 5%. That doesn't bother me because I'm paying about 7% less for a tank of 95 octane mix than just straight 91 gas. So I'm getting my octane boost and horsepower boosts for free instead of paying double the price.

[ducati]

Originally Posted by midlife

as a member posted above, maybe BMW germany loaded a 89 octane map into my car, or bmw is just counting on the ecu to adjust to the 89 octane (just as the ECU can normally adjust to increased elevation).

That was me, too, and this is entirely possible. I would be contacting BMW Ecuador ASAP to discuss this possibility. What octanes are available at sea level in Ecuador, btw?

Originally Posted by midlife

more / better (cooler) air means more gasoline, means more advanced timing, = more HP right? hopefully i am on the right track here. please correct me if i am wrong.

Do NOT fit or plan on fitting mods until you get the octane issue sorted out. For instance:
cooler air means more gas means more advanced timing means popcorn engine on your gasoline.

A quick synopsis, in case you don't know already: "octane" is resistance to detonation. The higher the octane, the more resistant to detonation. Think about what a turbo is doing: stuffing pressurized air in the cylinders. More air means the engine needs to stuff in more fuel, and this is under extreme amounts of pressure when boosting. If this pre-ignites ("knock" or detonation), you have a world of hurt coming, as your pistons crack, ringlands break, and the engine pops itself into popcorn.

You may already be completely aware of this, and I know you say your first order of business is to sort the octane... But I am cautioning you to forget modding this car for more power if you don't have 93+ octane (RON+MON/2) pump gas available. Turbo engines are much less tolerant of detonation, and they can go "pop" in an instant. Now, if someone knows the answer to my question above re: tuning, perhaps you can find a tuner that will tune the motor down to your octane... But I'd be buying another BMW at that point. 10.2:1 compression ratio with boost is not going to be very flexible with regards to crap fuel.