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      08-06-2019, 09:36 PM   #23
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Surprised you didnít try the SyncroDesignWorks bearing.
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      08-10-2019, 09:49 AM   #24
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Just a quick note to say I have just installed meyle balljoints (part number 314-710-0005-INT, at Pelican Parts) for the trailing arm and toe. They looked quite good with negligible bind.

a

Stay tuned!
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      08-24-2019, 10:17 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel67 View Post
Just a quick note to say I have just installed meyle balljoints (part number 314-710-0005-INT, at Pelican Parts) for the trailing arm and toe. They looked quite good with negligible bind.

a

Stay tuned!
Good to hear! Iíve been debating contacting Bimmerworld to see if they made an update after OPís complaint or buying some TRW/Meyle/Lemforder Arms to get the spherical bearings. Keep us updated!
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      08-25-2019, 03:10 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel67 View Post
Just a quick note to say I have just installed meyle balljoints (part number 314-710-0005-INT, at Pelican Parts) for the trailing arm and toe. They looked quite good with negligible bind.

a

Stay tuned!
That is a good find. Much cheaper than my convoluted experience!
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      08-29-2019, 05:47 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
That is a good find. Much cheaper than my convoluted experience!
Yes, but we have you to thank for that.

Also, did you see the toe arms we have made, as posted on a few boards (see https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=768710&page=2), with the following note:

Hey guys.

We have manufactured rear toe arms for the e82 and e9x non-M. The design principle is a curved arm, but with dimensions better suited to the non-M suspension.

These are made of billet 6061-T6 aluminum and have been precision CNC machined to accept either balljoints or bushings (which can be either stock bushings or much stiffer Group N bushings, or even some polyurethane bushings), or any combination of balljoints and bushings depending on individual preferences. They can be anodized in any colour. They can also be made either in the standard length (412 mm) or +3 mm for extra toe.

Because you can select balljoints or bushings, or any combination, you can tweak your effective spring rates in increments (measured in lb/in). So, for example, on effective spring rates:

- 2 balljoints: 0
- 1 balljoint and 1 regular bushing: 15
- 2 regular bushings: 30
- 1 balljoint and 1 Group N: 56
- 1 regular bushing and 1 Group N: 71
- 2 Group N: 112

Assuming the contribution of a full set of stock bushings is an equivalent of 109 lb/in, then that can be fully compensated with a set of MRP toe arms with 2 Group N bushings, and the other 4 arms can be only balljoints...

Just trying to gauge interest at this point so please reply if you might be interested in this product...
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      08-29-2019, 05:59 AM   #28
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I would also note that so far I quite like my setup which uses 3 Group N bushings - one each in the toe and trailing arms, plus one on the inboard side of the lower camber arm (the rest being balljoints except for the normal bushings on the outboard side of the M3 upper arms). Since the Group N bushings are very stiff, they provide not only additional spring on compression but also additional rebound, below normal or static height. Above static height, they work against the metal spring, pulling the suspension back to static height. I have a 521 lb spring and say about 180 lb equivalent spring rate from all the bushings. So on compression, below static height, together they add up to about 700 lb, but above static height the effective spring becomes around 340 lb. This helps the sway bar do its job and the car levels very quickly...

So there is a reason besides rules to use Group N...

a

Stay tuned
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      08-29-2019, 09:30 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel67 View Post
Just a quick note to say I have just installed meyle balljoints (part number 314-710-0005-INT, at Pelican Parts) for the trailing arm and toe. They looked quite good with negligible bind.

a

Stay tuned!
Have you, or anyone else, found a similar style ball joint that will work for the rear upper arms?
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      08-29-2019, 12:11 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsmithvmi View Post
Have you, or anyone else, found a similar style ball joint that will work for the rear upper arms?
You probably know that the guide rod balljoint is the same. That's what Fe1rx used and that's what the Meyle balljoints I used are made for. I have not looked into whether the upper camber arm bushing is the same dimensions but I suspect it would be since the bolts are the same. I will check later. I have an arm in my garage. But that is only on the inboard side. The outboard side, which connects to the knuckle, has a tapered shape not a flat shape, so it would not work without either some machining or some sort of washer.

a

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      08-29-2019, 01:44 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel67 View Post
I would also note that so far I quite like my setup which uses 3 Group N bushings - one each in the toe and trailing arms, plus one on the inboard side of the lower camber arm (the rest being balljoints except for the normal bushings on the outboard side of the M3 upper arms). Since the Group N bushings are very stiff, they provide not only additional spring on compression but also additional rebound, below normal or static height. Above static height, they work against the metal spring, pulling the suspension back to static height. I have a 521 lb spring and say about 180 lb equivalent spring rate from all the bushings. So on compression, below static height, together they add up to about 700 lb, but above static height the effective spring becomes around 340 lb. This helps the sway bar do its job and the car levels very quickly...

So there is a reason besides rules to use Group N...

a

Stay tuned
The rules of springs in parallel say that you add spring rates together, so the total spring rate is the steel spring rate plus the sum of all the rubber spring rates. That is true at all compression or extension positions. The fact that the rubber is at zero force at static ride height and the steel spring is compressed does cause some confusion, but doesn't change that rule. It just changes the ride height at which the total spring force would be zero - a position that generally will be beyond the maximum droop permitted by the shock.

Stiff, short rear springs could potentially come unseated under full droop as set by the shock. Potentially rubber bushings could keep the springs seated by preventing the suspension from getting to this mechanical limit.
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      08-29-2019, 01:48 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel67 View Post
Yes, but we have you to thank for that.

Also, did you see the toe arms we have made, as posted on a few boards (see https://www.e90post.com/forums/showt...=768710&page=2),
You are welcome! They look good.

With respect to the toe arm I ultimately replaced my machined/ball-jointed toe arm with an SPL part. The only real benefit in doing this was to gain the ability to adjust toe with a turnbuckle rather than the eccentric bolt. I do my own string alignments on hub stands, and I find that the turnbuckle really makes my life easier when aligning.
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      08-29-2019, 03:13 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
You are welcome! They look good.

With respect to the toe arm I ultimately replaced my machined/ball-jointed toe arm with an SPL part. The only real benefit in doing this was to gain the ability to adjust toe with a turnbuckle rather than the eccentric bolt. I do my own string alignments on hub stands, and I find that the turnbuckle really makes my life easier when aligning.
Your machined toe, like most of your work, are pieces of art. If you no longer want them I would be happy to take them off of your hands.

I have 39k street miles on my Rogue toe arms and they're still tight. The rod ends they use aren't FKs strongest but the original NJM series are holding up just fine. I even bought (higher spec) replacements but they just sit in a drawer, waiting. I've replaced the Seals-it WS series rod end seals twice due to rubber cracking, however. I'm thinking of switching to the RERS series boots, but why fix it if it isn't really broken?

FWIW, I just installed Lemforder 3067901 spherical bearings in the hubs for the trailing arms. A bit of initial stiction, but once overcome the movement is smooth and easy.
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      08-29-2019, 03:29 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suprgnat View Post
Your machined toe, like most of your work, are pieces of art. If you no longer want them I would be happy to take them off of your hands.
Thanks for the compliment. Someone else had the same idea, so they went to another forum member. Sorry!
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      08-29-2019, 04:06 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
The rules of springs in parallel say that you add spring rates together, so the total spring rate is the steel spring rate plus the sum of all the rubber spring rates. That is true at all compression or extension positions. The fact that the rubber is at zero force at static ride height and the steel spring is compressed does cause some confusion, but doesn't change that rule. It just changes the ride height at which the total spring force would be zero - a position that generally will be beyond the maximum droop permitted by the shock.

Stiff, short rear springs could potentially come unseated under full droop as set by the shock. Potentially rubber bushings could keep the springs seated by preventing the suspension from getting to this mechanical limit.
Two things. First, I second the motion that your work is work of art. I have been very inspired by you.

Second, on the above, I hear you, but consider this: if I have a 521 lb spring and bushings that equate to 180 lb, while the spring is pushing toward droop with a force of 521 (below static height), won't the bushing be pushing toward static with a force of 180, so shouldn't that be subtracted from the force of the steel spring at positions below static (droop positions) just as it is added to the force of the steel spring at positions of compression. It's an opposing force at positions of droop. I think it has to be subtracted at those positions. If that's true, then I effectively have different spring rates depending on whether the wheel is at compression (add bushing) or droop (subtract bushing) which helps the sway bar do its job....

a

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      08-29-2019, 04:12 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
You are welcome! They look good.

With respect to the toe arm I ultimately replaced my machined/ball-jointed toe arm with an SPL part. The only real benefit in doing this was to gain the ability to adjust toe with a turnbuckle rather than the eccentric bolt. I do my own string alignments on hub stands, and I find that the turnbuckle really makes my life easier when aligning.
From what I've seen and tried, adjustable arms tend to come loose depending on how they are constructed. Those with lock nuts like rogue and dinan tend to come loose, while those with clamps like spl maybe would be less likely to come loose. And the rogue look better than dinan because the hex in the dinan is in the middle of the shaft not at the ends closer to the lock nut, so harder to get good leverage on it. I ended up using epoxy to glue my dinan nuts in place, rendering adjustability irrelevant. I then decided to machine my own ...
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      08-29-2019, 07:20 PM   #37
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Although I think the right calc has to also take into account the unsprung weight of the corner, which represents additional work (besides fighting the spring) the bushing has to do at droop to pull the wheel back to static.

a

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      09-11-2019, 09:10 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel67 View Post
You probably know that the guide rod balljoint is the same. That's what Fe1rx used and that's what the Meyle balljoints I used are made for. I have not looked into whether the upper camber arm bushing is the same dimensions but I suspect it would be since the bolts are the same. I will check later. I have an arm in my garage. But that is only on the inboard side. The outboard side, which connects to the knuckle, has a tapered shape not a flat shape, so it would not work without either some machining or some sort of washer.

a

Stay tuned
I took a look at my OE upper camber arm and the dimensions of the bushing with the flat edges is the same so I would think interchangeable with the balljoint in the guide rod or equivalent. However, they are not identical to the toe/trailing arm bushings because the shell is a bit wider on the upper camber arm bushing (33.5 vs 25 mm). The bushings in these two arms on the outboard side with the tapered edges seem to be a couple of mm wider but probably doesn't matter if replacing with a balljoints, although the edge will have to be machined to a taper.

a

Stay tuned!
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      09-11-2019, 09:27 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel67 View Post
I would also note that so far I quite like my setup which uses 3 Group N bushings - one each in the toe and trailing arms, plus one on the inboard side of the lower camber arm (the rest being balljoints except for the normal bushings on the outboard side of the M3 upper arms). Since the Group N bushings are very stiff, they provide not only additional spring on compression but also additional rebound, below normal or static height. Above static height, they work against the metal spring, pulling the suspension back to static height. I have a 521 lb spring and say about 180 lb equivalent spring rate from all the bushings. So on compression, below static height, together they add up to about 700 lb, but above static height the effective spring becomes around 340 lb. This helps the sway bar do its job and the car levels very quickly...

So there is a reason besides rules to use Group N...

a

Stay tuned
The other point to keep in mind is that the very stiff Group N bushings seem to provide anti-pitching benefits. Since they work against the spring above static height, they tend to pull down the rear end on braking, which fights against pitching. Sway bars do nothing in this context and stiffer metal springs only make it worse - they contribute to pitching. My current setup gets about 35% of its effective spring from Group N (and other) bushings, so that adds about 50% to the effective spring on compression below static height, and removes about 50% above static height. At the equivalent of 180lb per corner, it's like throwing 360lb in the trunk as soon as the rear end lifts by one inch on braking. It's a very nice effect. 35% feels very good. Would be interesting to test higher percentages. I would think one could get at or above 65% with a fuller set of Group N (I have 3 per corner, and can easily go to 6 per corner, and possibly 9 per corner - the parts are available so it's just a question of finding the right balance between metal spring and bushings).

a

Stay tuned!

Last edited by Angel67; 09-11-2019 at 09:57 PM.. Reason: Clarification
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      09-13-2019, 09:38 AM   #40
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Fe1rx- have you looked into the affect the adjustable rear guide arm may have on rear caster angle?
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