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      06-12-2019, 09:26 PM   #1
Relegate
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Stock vs Stage 2+ MHD - What's it really worth in lap times?

I had the opportunity to compare lap times on Monday at NJMP Thunderbolt with my car (FBO with Wagner Catted DP, no muffler, lots of mods) on stock map and MHD 2+ 93 octane (running 95 octane). The difference in power should be 50-60WHP and a bunch of torque, but the delta might surprise you...

I found an average of .5 sec a lap between the 2. There were only 5 cars on track so most laps were empty.

At first I was surprised but in reality here is my take:

On the track I am rarely below 4500 rpm. As we know, the power drops off of the N55 pretty abruptly at 5500rpm, and from there to redline its very little difference in power between stock and tuned. My trap speed according to my GPS lap timer was about 3 mph difference on the front straight and some corners I exited better with stock power. (No LSD, all nannies off).

I am guilty as anyone of saying "add power for better lap times" and while this is true, as mentioned, it's not the holy grail one would think. Weather, tires, track grip play a bigger role in lap times than a few HP. If the N55 made power at 6500 rpm I bet that delta would be 1-2 seconds as I could hold gears longer instead of tractoring the next taller gear. (1:34.2 vs 1:34.7) Anyhow, just wanted to share my experiences and see what others have seen on track.

At NYST I ran stock power and was within .2 of my best time there (JB4 Map 5) with slightly better alignment and stiffer springs (9k/12k). 1:40.01 vs 1:40.3. Lightning best time is a 1:15.9 Stock map.
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      06-13-2019, 09:50 AM   #2
amg6975
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Could be the engine isn't using all the power as well. I just did a weekend at Watkins Glen and Sunday was pretty warm, I ran Stage 1+ all weekend, with a CSF rad and intercooler and downpipe but was clearly down on power in the afternoon, and had some pretty significant power cuts after a few push laps (oil temp I think.)

I was more aggressive through the S's in the afternoon but still at least 5 mph down on entry into the bust stop. I also noticed I burned an additional three gallons of gas in the two 30 min afternoon sessions (9.5 in the morning, 12.5 in the afternoon) so I assume it was running rich to combat the heat. Maybe running the more aggressive tune actually caused heat issues and caused the car to roll back power a bit?
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      06-16-2019, 10:31 AM   #3
Relegate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amg6975 View Post
I also noticed I burned an additional three gallons of gas in the two 30 min afternoon sessions (9.5 in the morning, 12.5 in the afternoon) so I assume it was running rich to combat the heat. Maybe running the more aggressive tune actually caused heat issues and caused the car to roll back power a bit?
There is no doubt that the tune (whether JB4 or MHD) is like having a hole in the gas tank compared to stock. I also would agree when things get hot itís likely cutting power, but my fastest laptime was 3rd lap it seemed (mostly tire and my rear wind had too much angle). It was cloudy and 60ís when I ran last week so definitely not too hot but I was wfo FTW.

Have you noticed a measurable difference with the CSF radiator? Any oil cooler upgrade.

Iíve been told the best lap time improving upgrades are:
-MCS or similar track suspension (I have st XTA which PO installed) with 9k/12k spring
-at least -3 front camber (Iím at -2.5, will have more this week)
-LSD
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      06-16-2019, 06:29 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relegate View Post
There is no doubt that the tune (whether JB4 or MHD) is like having a hole in the gas tank compared to stock. I also would agree when things get hot itís likely cutting power, but my fastest laptime was 3rd lap it seemed (mostly tire and my rear wind had too much angle). It was cloudy and 60ís when I ran last week so definitely not too hot but I was wfo FTW.

Have you noticed a measurable difference with the CSF radiator? Any oil cooler upgrade.

Iíve been told the best lap time improving upgrades are:
-MCS or similar track suspension (I have st XTA which PO installed) with 9k/12k spring
-at least -3 front camber (Iím at -2.5, will have more this week)
-LSD
I ran three days, four sessions per day, only Sunday was really hot in the afternoon, and that's where I burned three extra gallons vs any of the other 5 half days (two sessions.)

The CSF rad is impressive. No water temp gauge but use to be that after a half hour session the under hood temps were insane, felt like an oven. With it, after a half hour the temp feels totally normal, like I had just driven to the store and back.

I haven't done any oil cooling upgrade yet but I definitely need to. I'll prob rig up my own with Setrab cores on both sides. That should fix the power cut issues.

I have JRZ RS2 coils at 2.5 degrees of camber (def needs more) and no LSD yet.
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      06-16-2019, 07:05 PM   #5
beattiecj
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Nice to see a few other NE 1 series guys, fwiw I'm running stock power on my n55 DCT and added a single ER oil cooler makes a large difference I.e running down the straight at Lightning in clean air or letting off for a corner really drops oil temps vs putzing around for a lap or two. Though I think it needs the double to run it hard through a 20+ min session in high revs.

Thanks for the info for the CSF radiator and MHD both are on my list of next upgrades.

Any of you guys doing NASA at Lime Rock in July?
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      06-17-2019, 09:14 AM   #6
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I tried to make this point in another thread you were replying in too lol. So many people complain about N55 power, or the M2 lacking power, yet they can't even get around a road-course at a beginner pace lol.

A 1:34 at Thunderbolt is a pretty respectable time for a 135i. Last time I was there I was running in the 1:35-1:40 range but hadn't been on Thunderbolt in close to 3 years. I'd argue wheels and tires would be the #1 thing I would do to pick up time (throw some NT-01 on the car). Then my #2 and #3 would be a tie between a coil-over suspension and bucket seats. It's just a fact that you will be more confident, and more in control (faster), if you have a proper bucket seat and 5-point harness holding you down in place. Going from needing to brace yourself against the door with your leg to focusing on your driving line makes a massive difference.

Tuning ranks 4th in my list for its benefits of things such as linear throttle, cooling settings, and E85 tuning. MHD actually just released a full E85 map for the M2 which keeps boost targets modest but really ramps up the timing up top. This produces a more linear power band for the road-course guys and keeps the low-end torque in check.
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Last edited by bbnks2; 06-17-2019 at 09:24 AM..
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      06-17-2019, 03:26 PM   #7
Mark Aubele
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relegate View Post
I had the opportunity to compare lap times on Monday at NJMP Thunderbolt with my car (FBO with Wagner Catted DP, no muffler, lots of mods) on stock map and MHD 2+ 93 octane (running 95 octane). The difference in power should be 50-60WHP and a bunch of torque, but the delta might surprise you...

I found an average of .5 sec a lap between the 2. There were only 5 cars on track so most laps were empty.

At first I was surprised but in reality here is my take:

On the track I am rarely below 4500 rpm. As we know, the power drops off of the N55 pretty abruptly at 5500rpm, and from there to redline its very little difference in power between stock and tuned. My trap speed according to my GPS lap timer was about 3 mph difference on the front straight and some corners I exited better with stock power. (No LSD, all nannies off).

I am guilty as anyone of saying "add power for better lap times" and while this is true, as mentioned, it's not the holy grail one would think. Weather, tires, track grip play a bigger role in lap times than a few HP. If the N55 made power at 6500 rpm I bet that delta would be 1-2 seconds as I could hold gears longer instead of tractoring the next taller gear. (1:34.2 vs 1:34.7) Anyhow, just wanted to share my experiences and see what others have seen on track.

At NYST I ran stock power and was within .2 of my best time there (JB4 Map 5) with slightly better alignment and stiffer springs (9k/12k). 1:40.01 vs 1:40.3. Lightning best time is a 1:15.9 Stock map.
You may have commented on this and I apologize if you have, but what rpm are you shifting at? We see a massive increase in trap speeds (109-112 for example) shifting manually at 5600-5800 rather than letting the DCT shift itself near 7000. Even with the 6 speed manual I highly doubt you'd be much further out of the highest part of the torque curve on a gear change when tuned.

It goes against what most are taught but there are quite a few cars out there that are much quicker short shifted. Should keep temps down a bit on track too.

If you were exiting corners faster with stock power maybe the diff is becoming an issue, or you are faster on entry? Tune certainly shouldn't be a detriment unless it is harder to get the power down which is certainly possible.
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      06-17-2019, 06:41 PM   #8
The Wind Breezes
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What mods does the car have and what coding has been done to it (separate thing from your mhd flash)?

You can find out what the optimal shift points are by googling "shift calculator" and inputting the gear ratios and torque curve.

I forget exactly what the points are offhand but you need to shift below 7k at all changes except 1-2 and closer to 6k in most gears for flashtuned N55 with DCT.

The car is also unbalanced stock and adding power worsens this. If you haven't coded out the engine power reduction e-diff stuff your times will suffer massively. Car needs additional mods to fully utilize 300hp on track. This is more true when you have 400 hp.
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