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      06-13-2019, 11:32 AM   #1
nlevy101
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SCCA Dinan Camber Plate Clarification

Hi everyone, I've got a quick question about the Street Touring SCCA Solo rules. My 128i is my daily driver and also used to compete at local autocross events in STX. The car already has M3 front control arms as well as some other modifications. I am considering adding the Dinan camber plates. According to the rules, either upgraded lower control arms or adjustable camber plates can be used, but NOT both. As previously stated, I am already running M3 control arms. My question is whether this ruling bans the addition of all camber plates or just the common, adjustable kind. I know that adjustable camber plates, such as Vorshlags, are not legal with the M3 arms. However, it seems that fixed camber plates, such as the Dinan ones, would be legal in the class. What is the typical interpretation of this rule? Perhaps I am reading too much into the word "adjustable?" Thanks!
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      06-13-2019, 01:29 PM   #2
The Wind Breezes
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Since the plates themselves don't have an adjustment I think you're OK. It seems like a weird rule since you apparently still get to have camber plates. It shouldn't be an issue anyway unless you think you're winning more than local stuff.
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      06-13-2019, 01:51 PM   #3
bbnks2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nlevy101 View Post
Hi everyone, I've got a quick question about the Street Touring SCCA Solo rules. My 128i is my daily driver and also used to compete at local autocross events in STX. The car already has M3 front control arms as well as some other modifications. I am considering adding the Dinan camber plates. According to the rules, either upgraded lower control arms or adjustable camber plates can be used, but NOT both. As previously stated, I am already running M3 control arms. My question is whether this ruling bans the addition of all camber plates or just the common, adjustable kind. I know that adjustable camber plates, such as Vorshlags, are not legal with the M3 arms. However, it seems that fixed camber plates, such as the Dinan ones, would be legal in the class. What is the typical interpretation of this rule? Perhaps I am reading too much into the word "adjustable?" Thanks!
You are reading the restrictions to this section, right?:

14.8.H
Quote:
Camber kits (also known as camber compensators) may be installed.
These kits consist of either adjustable length arms or arm mounts (including ball joints) that provide a lateral adjustment to the effective
length of a control arm. Alignment outside the factory specifications is
allowed.
In regard to the FRONT suspension, the restrictions to this rule are as follows:
Quote:
On arm-and-strut (MacPherson/Chapman) suspensions, the lower
arms may be modified/replaced OR other methods of camber adjustment as allowed by Sections 14.8.B, C, or F may be used, but NOT
both.
This means that up front you can replace the camber arm (wishbone) with the longer 1M/M3 camber arm (31102283577) or an aftermarket adjustable arm. You would be correct in that if you modify the camber arm as allowable by section 14.8.H then you cannot do adjustable camber plates (14.8.C), camber offset bushings (14.8.B), or camber bolt kits (14.8.F).

Also note that section 14.8.H does NOT allow for the swapping of the 1M/M3 tension strut (31102283575). If you've swapped in BOTH arms then you would technically be bumped to ASP with the 1M. Instead, you can replace the bushings in the STOCK tension strut with stiffer poly as allowable per 14.8.B.

In regard to the multi-link rear suspension, the restrictions to this rule are as follows:
Quote:
On double/unequal arm (e.g., wishbone, multi-link) suspensions,
only the upper arms OR lower arms may be modified or replaced,
but not both. Non-integral longitudinal arms that primarily control
fore/aft wheel movement (e.g., trailing arm(s) or link(s) of a multilink suspension) may not be replaced, changed, or modified.
This means that, in the rear, you can change the upper "wishbone" but then you cannot alter the lower camber arm (a-arm) in any way to gain camber. The M3 arms like the guide rod would also not be allowable...

TLDR; no, you aren't technically allowed to do both but who is really going to check lol?
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Last edited by bbnks2; 06-13-2019 at 02:38 PM..
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      06-13-2019, 01:56 PM   #4
mKilgore
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If you want to go by the letter of the rules, it specifically describes adjustable camber plates. Since the Dinan camber plates aren't adjustable, you have a very good argument that you can have both the M3 arms and fixed camber plates. With that being said, are you doing any competitive regional or national events where anyone is really going to care? Much less actually know that you are running both? Most people, even most 135i owners, wouldn't be able to tell which lower control arms you are running just simply by looking at them. But at the same time I understand you want to be fair and run according to the rules.

Regardless, run both because by the letter of the rules, you are not running adjustable camber plates.
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      06-13-2019, 02:20 PM   #5
bbnks2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mKilgore View Post
If you want to go by the letter of the rules, it specifically describes adjustable camber plates. Since the Dinan camber plates aren't adjustable, you have a very good argument that you can have both the M3 arms and fixed camber plates. With that being said, are you doing any competitive regional or national events where anyone is really going to care? Much less actually know that you are running both? Most people, even most 135i owners, wouldn't be able to tell which lower control arms you are running just simply by looking at them. But at the same time I understand you want to be fair and run according to the rules.

Regardless, run both because by the letter of the rules, you are not running adjustable camber plates.
This is a false interpretation of the rule-book. The rules very clearly state that if it's not specifically stated as allowed then it is NOT allowed. You would need to find a rule in stx or lower section that allows for the use of fixed camber plates. I didn't bother looking myself, but, if you do find a rule then you can reference it for OP. Seeing as how section 14 (street touring) is the first place camber is mentioned I don't think modifying both the top-hat for camber and the camber arm is allowable anywhere in the rule book until you get to street modified... That is where more significant suspension and geometry changes star to become allowable. STX is a basic bolt-on category. Wheels, tires, coilovers, sways, seats, battery, basic exhaust changes, etc. Yes the mod list is extensive (and lots of gains to be had for a 1-series) but it's all basic stuff not suspension design changes lol.
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Last edited by bbnks2; 06-13-2019 at 02:43 PM..
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      06-13-2019, 05:24 PM   #6
mKilgore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbnks2 View Post
This is a false interpretation of the rule-book. The rules very clearly state that if it's not specifically stated as allowed then it is NOT allowed. You would need to find a rule in stx or lower section that allows for the use of fixed camber plates. I didn't bother looking myself, but, if you do find a rule then you can reference it for OP. Seeing as how section 14 (street touring) is the first place camber is mentioned I don't think modifying both the top-hat for camber and the camber arm is allowable anywhere in the rule book until you get to street modified... That is where more significant suspension and geometry changes star to become allowable. STX is a basic bolt-on category. Wheels, tires, coilovers, sways, seats, battery, basic exhaust changes, etc. Yes the mod list is extensive (and lots of gains to be had for a 1-series) but it's all basic stuff not suspension design changes lol.
Well, based on your interpretation, then if someone prepped to STX runs fixed camber plates alone, then they are illegal and are bumped to Street Modified since STX allows only adjustable camber plates.

Actually, the current SCCA Solo rules do not mention fixed camber plates at all. Thus, they go from Street with no allowed camber plates of any kind immediately to Street Touring with adjustable camber plates. I guess the SCCA doesn't like fixed camber plates. Only once you get to Street Modified or Prepared would you be allowed to run fixed camber plates where suspension components are unrestricted. That makes sense though, I want to run an inferior modification that has less performance but I get bumped to a higher class.

Gotta love those SCCA rules....
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      06-14-2019, 08:01 AM   #7
bbnks2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mKilgore View Post
Gotta love those SCCA rules....
The rule book is pretty horrible. I would assume fixed camber plates fall in-line with what is being allow in street touring under 14.8.C.

I have more an issue with the fact that if you put 1M parts on your car you are immediately bumped into Street prepared... Makes 100% more sense if the rules allowed you to run in B-Street with 1M's. I guess the rules are written more to avoid people from needing to do a massive amount of work to their car in certain classes to stay competitive than it is written to make cars "faster" you know...
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Last edited by bbnks2; 06-17-2019 at 08:50 AM..
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      06-14-2019, 03:41 PM   #8
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To be clear, in street touring both adjustable and non-adjustable camber plates such as Dinan are considered upper camber adjustment. If you use them, it is not legal to use the M lower control arms.

However, as silly as it is, you can take the stock arm and add an offset bushing which results in the arm being the same length as the M arm, and use that in conjunction with the camber plates.

This is my post describing doing exactly this for STX competition:
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/show...1140422&page=4

-Mark
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      06-14-2019, 04:57 PM   #9
nlevy101
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Thanks for the responses everyone. SCCA rules can definitely be a bit puzzling sometimes.

Mark, thanks for the information. I've been using your build thread for both information and inspiration for the last few years. It sounds like camber adjustment, through almost any means, can be done at the top of the strut or the bottom, but not both.

Since my 128 is still primarily a street car, I think I'll stick with just the M3 arms for now.
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